2,000 Greater & Lesser Mysteries/2,000 Greater and Lesser Mysteries.iso/ufo/aav/mys02129.txt

Internet Message Format | 1994-06-10 | 1.2 MB

Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!spool.mu.edu!agate!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!news.ysu.edu!psuvm!cunyvm!botgc
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center
Date: Sunday, 29 Nov 1992 16:47:23 EST
From: <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject:       Newsletter
Lines: 7

Anyone interested in subscribing to a newsletter that is a discussion
forum about the influence of extraterrestrials on human civilizations?
Mythology and archaeology 70% and UFO 30% in terms of
the discussion content. All subscribers participate.
Send me a message if interested.

Vladislav Botvinnik
Xref: icaen alt.conspiracy:20258 sci.skeptic:35006 alt.alien.visitors:11473
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!uunet!gator!fang!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Subject: Re: UFOs & Jimmy Carter
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1992 21:32:09 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 38

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Author) writes:
>> |In one of Carter's election campaign speeches he said that he's seen a UFO
>> |and that if he gets elected to become prez he'll make public all the govt
>> |files on UFOs.
>>
>> |What ever became of this election promise? Did anything happen?
>>
>>
>
>Is this not a case in point for what Cooper claimed, let's face it if
>there is indeed secret government involvement along the lines described
>by him, than it would make very good sence that President Carter and
>candidte Carter would take a totally different approach. Maybe it would
>be a useful idea to begin a series of letters to former President Carter
>along the line of the 'letters to Clinton'. Realistically however I don't
>expect any form of reply. Just for the record I did not say that that
>what Cooper claims is actually true, but the Carter thing does come in
>support of these claims.
>
>Greetings Peter
>

I certainly hope that you aren't putting any credibility into anything
that William Milton Cooper has put out..it's just sheer Bullshit.

Jimmy Carter's "UFO" turns out to have been Venus.

Now if you wanna know about real UFO's..talk to Northrup or Lockheed
people out around Techachapi, Calif :-)

Don


--
<*> Don Allen <*>             1:363/81.1 - Fidonet #1 - Homebody BBS
[e-mail] - Internet   1:363/29.8 - Fidonet #2 - Gourmet Delight
88:4205/1.1  - MUFON Network  1:3607/20.2  -- Odyssey - Alabama UFO Net
NSA grep food: Aviary, Ed Dames, Los Alamos - Majestic - Jason - RIIA - UN
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!munnari.oz.au!yoyo.aarnet.edu.au!news.adelaide.edu.au!ijameson
From: [e-mail] (Iain Jameson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: story request - purple shade of greys.
Date: 30 Nov 1992 00:43:38 GMT
Organization: The University of Adelaide
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: flare.physics.adelaide.edu.au

Hi people

Some time back, either early this year or last year, I submitted
a couple of stories to this group lampooning a series of posts
by a regular submitter to this group.

The story was about two chapters long and delt with the purple
shade of greys, pleadians, and a war between tea and coffee
drinkers.

If anyone still has a copy, could you email it to me.

Thankyou.

Iain Jameson.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12995 alt.alien.visitors:11475 sci.skeptic:35008
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU!CARL
From: [e-mail] (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Alien Ships.
Date: 29 Nov 1992 22:22:20 GMT
Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera
Lines: 20
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>,<[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol1.gps.caltech.edu

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Doug Thompson) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>
>> change.  There's no reason at all why there couldn't be a thousand species of
>> animal living hundreds of miles below the Earth's surface.
>
>Well, actually there is one reason. It's called *lava* or *magma*. You
>know, the stuff that comes out of volcanoes?

And before mcsdc1al (he MUST be an alien with a name like that :-) counters
with a claim that there's only magma and lava in SOME places, I'll ask him to
explain, along with that claim, the Mohorovicic discontinuity.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: [e-mail] | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12996 alt.alien.visitors:11476
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Trip
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 92 17:00:54 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 45

Subject: Let's take a Little Trip.
  I wonder what it would be like if you took a trip on a space ship from
another planet. Maybe it would go something like this; You might take a ride
out on a road so no one could see you. You might stand there a few minutes
then see something shinny catches you eye.  We'll now put it in the first
person.  A large object was coming down like you know what . Within three or
four blinks of my eye it was hovering  over this little hill, right along
side of me. The ship descended so rapidly that it startled me. I have never
seen anything in my life move as fast as it movedd--from just a speck in the
sky to a huge spaceship hovering over the top of the hill.  No sound,
whatsoever. Not even a displacement of air.  You would have thought anything
moving that fast through the air would break the sonic barrier or create a
big whoosh from the air being pushed out of the way.  It looked like it was
anchored over the top of the hill.
  In evaluating the size of the craft (which I did afterwards) I estimated
that this particular spaceship was about 150 feet in diameter.  Unlike some
of the other saucer pictures that you see, particularly the Adamski type
spaceships which have round things sticking out of the bottom, this one was
absolutely flat on the bottom.  There wasn't anything sticking out of it.
Its height was about 45 to 50 feet from the bottom to the very top.  The
outer perimenter of the ship was round.
  What looked like a bright light at the top of the ship was actually a
half-round circle of what appeared to be some type of crystalline substance
like glass.  There was a detectable glow coming from it.  (I found out later
that this was where the forcefield was exiting the ship and that is where it
was coming out of at the time.  I imagine it radiated outward from other
places around the ship and spread out around the rim when they were in
movement. But when it was just hovering it was glowing at the one particular
point.)
  A strannge thing happened. I made the decision to get a close look, so I
walked up the side of the hill. As I got under the edge of the ship, I
noticed that even with the light jacket I was wearing, and particularly on
the backs of my hands, that the hair just stood up.  I noticed a prickling
senstion on my skin.  I could associate this with being around a high
voltage source of  electricity; you sometimes notice this same thing
occuring.  Apparently there was an electrical discharge in the air around
the ship, becouse its power was still turned on while it was hovering.
  As I was standing there lookng up at the ship, there was a slight noise and
then a doorway opend on the outer rim of the ship. I was fascinated because
it looked like it was a tongue-and-grooved type thing.  Then a stairway
decended from the opening. (I looked at the mechanics of it later and this
astairway was not flexible, it was rigid. Somewhere there was a pivot point
so it slanted down, came out a little way and then dropped down.)
End Part 1.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12997 alt.alien.visitors:11477 sci.skeptic:35015
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!torn!watserv2.uwaterloo.ca!mach1!kfisher3
From: [e-mail] (kevin fisher U)
Subject: Re: Alien Ships.
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
References: <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Wilfrid Laurier University
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1992 03:50:45 GMT
Lines: 30

:
: 1. We do not know for sure that there is no underground "differently-\
:    evolved" (how's THAT for political correctness?), that is true.
:    Please reference the other follow-ups from people who pointed out,
:    correctly, that if you make this claim, you must have proof.
:
: 2. I'm sorry.  If you feel that THEY will get you if you post about the
:    pyramids or the Nazca lines, and therefore remain silent, then I have
:    no choice but to brand you a psychotic and return to believing the
:    logical and extensively researched anthropological standpoint, which
:    is that people build the Pyramids and the Nazca lines, and that they
:    did it themselves, with nothing but ingenuity, slaves, and theological
:    clarity.  Did I mention hard work?  OK, hard work too.  What you say
:    may or may not be true, but unless you can prove it, I have no choice
:    but to assume it is untrue.
:
:     Jason
I have a question here:  I've heard many times that it would be difficult
(if not impossible) for even modern man to reproduce the pyramids with such
engineering prowiss the egyptians did.  If this is true, how could they have
done it in the first place?  How could they do something that we can't even
reproduce?

Just a question, no flame intended...

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kevin Fisher  ><>     |  "Thank you.  You can't believe everything you
[e-mail]   |  see and hear, can you?" - Hendrix, 'EXP'
________________________________________________________________________________
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!utcsri!torn!watserv2.uwaterloo.ca!mach1!kfisher3
From: [e-mail] (kevin fisher U)
Subject: Re: Strange facts
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
References: <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Wilfrid Laurier University
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1992 03:58:07 GMT
Lines: 22

:
: What source did you get this from? And who compared the satellite
: photos?
:
: john
:
: --
: John Nielsen   MAGNUS Consultant            ______   ______   __  __
: [e-mail]         /\  __ \ /\  ___\ /\ \/\ \
:                                            \ \ \/\ \\ \___  \\ \ \_\ \
:   Back off man, I'm a Scientist!            \ \_____\\/\_____\\ \_____\
I myself read this in some book (can't remember which).  They superimposed
an American Military satellite photo centred on Cairo over the original
mystery map and they were very close..

just my 2 cents here..

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kevin Fisher  ><>     |  "Thank you.  You can't believe everything you
[e-mail]   |  see and hear, can you?" - Hendrix, 'EXP'
________________________________________________________________________________
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!yale.edu!spool.mu.edu!olivea!charnel!sifon!thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu!durocher
From: [e-mail] (Phil)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Pictures of Alien (Roswell)
Summary: confirm alien on picture is a fake from Montreal, Qc exhibit
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Nov 92 05:37:24 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: McGill Research Centre for Intelligent Machines
Lines: 15
Nntp-Posting-Host: vangogh.mcrcim.mcgill.edu


For those skeptical on everything and the problem of dissinformation,
I just wanted to confirm that subject pictures match VERY closely
the wax alien that was created for an exhibit here in Montreal, which
lasted for several years into the 70's.

I see the model is still alive and well ... :)


--
---
Phil Durocher                   McGill Research Centre for Intelligent Machines
[e-mail]      Computer Vision and Robotics Lab
                                McGill University, Montreal
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!news.claremont.edu!nntp-server.caltech.edu!keith
From: [e-mail] (Keith Allan Schneider)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Who believes?
Date: 30 Nov 1992 05:40:52 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu

[e-mail] (Robert J Unglenieks) writes:

>Kumaran Santhanam writes:
>>Just a question:  Who really believes that we are being visited by aliens?

>Not me.

>>The Great Pyramid lies exactly on top of the center of gravity of the Earth's
>>continents.

>Isn't the center of gravity of the continents in the earth's interior?  Unless
>you're talking about from a flat map.  But then what projection scheme is
>used?  The earth is round you know.......

>>Not only that, but also if you multiply the height of the Great
>>Pyramid by 10^9, you get the mean distance between the Earth and the Sun.

>To what accuracy?  I could pick any object in my living room and multiply by
>some factor like 10^10 or 10^11 and do a pretty good job of getting the mean
>distance between the earth and the sun.

>>As a side note, the Area divided by twice the Height equals to PI.

>If the Egyptians used large rolling disks to measure distances for the sides
>of the pyramids, then PI automatically enters into any calculations.....

I think that someone missed the joke...

keith

Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!news.claremont.edu!nntp-server.caltech.edu!keith
From: [e-mail] (Keith Allan Schneider)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Strange facts
Date: 30 Nov 1992 05:44:19 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu

[e-mail] (kevin fisher U) writes:

>I myself read this in some book (can't remember which).  They superimposed
>an American Military satellite photo centred on Cairo over the original
>mystery map and they were very close..

What book?  Who's "they"?  (as in "they superimposed an American...")

keith

Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!olivea!charnel!sifon!thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu!durocher
From: [e-mail] (Phil)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Pictures of Alien (Roswell) -- Confirmation it is FAKE
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Nov 92 05:47:48 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: McGill Research Center for Intelligent Machines, Montreal, Canada
Lines: 32
Nntp-Posting-Host: vangogh.mcrcim.mcgill.edu

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Stefan Hartmann) writes:
>In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Author) writes:
>
>>Hi, everyone. I was reading UFO Crash Secrets at Wright/Patterson Air
>>Force base, by James W. Moseley. On the backcover of this book a picture
...

Then from  Stefan Hartmann, c/o Ingenierbuero Gatz & Hartmann.
>email to:  [e-mail]
>
>This is only a well made doll, but a few UFO freaks stated it was real
>!!
>
>This is the picture that is circulated !
>

I have seen the doll myself in Montreal on several occasions (in exhibits,
pretty much inert I would say).

I just wanted to confirm the fact that the picture are not genuine. If I had
not seen the doll myself, I would be inclined to keep some uncertainty
value for it plausibility, although very LOW.

The doll has been used on occasions since the exhibit was dismantled.
It seems that our "Quebec alien" is still well and alive .... :)

--
---
Phil Durocher                   McGill Research Centre for Intelligent Machines
[e-mail]      Computer Vision and Robotics Lab
                                McGill University, Montreal
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mcsun!sun4nl!hacktic!blackhl!stycx!peter
From: [e-mail] (Author)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: MJ-12
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 92 08:48:31 PST
Organization: River of Doom. Running through Central Holland
Lines: 24

Is there anybody out there who could come up with additional information
relating to MJ-12 and the current state of affairs. In this context I
would want to make a call to anyone who was involved in or still is, in
activities relating to MJ-12 or subsequent organizations.

Internet is a medium via which it should be possible to possible to
provide information without having your own identity revealed. I could
very well imagine that there would be people who would want to talk but
are unable to do so because of fear for the consequences, however I would
stress that that risk is very much reduced if you would post using a fake
name. This can easily be done via BBS's where the use of cover names is
promoted.

I post this call, not as an open invitation for people with a misguided
sence of humor, humor is a great thing but it should not be applied to
this subject.

Greetings Peter

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
[e-mail] (5W)
Crawling out from the river of darkness into your own private pinball machine
Call STYCX  (Waffle 1.65) from 23:00 to 06:00  Central European Time
Number [phone]               Newkid Intown the nastiest Sysop arround
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mcsun!sun4nl!hacktic!blackhl!stycx!peter
From: [e-mail] (Author)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: M-12 Follow Up
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 92 06:37:35 PST
Organization: River of Doom. Running through Central Holland
Lines: 26

After posting the call for information from people who are involved with
or have pertinent information relating to M-12 and or subsequent
organizations and or activities, to post that information by means of
internet. I managed to get my "good ol' sysop" to open an dedicated
account on stycx for that purpose. He was willing to setup a group
account allowing callers to post a message in a dedicated local newsgroup
which is invisible to other users on that system. As it is a group
account the anonimity of the caller is ensured.

My sysop gave me the following advise, people who afraid that logging on
to this system from their home/office etc., could make use of a portabel
system from a public phone boot or the like.

The Phone number is [phone] in The Netherlands.
The account is: repm12
the password is: zebra

Please us this facility only for relevant postings.

Greetings Peter

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
[e-mail] (5W)
Crawling out from the river of darkness into your own private pinball machine
Call STYCX  (Waffle 1.65) from 23:00 to 06:00  Central European Time
Number [phone]               Newkid Intown the nastiest Sysop arround
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!hellgate.utah.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!f10.n2403.z2.FIDONET.ORG!Andre.Eichner
From: [e-mail] (Andre Eichner)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Pyramids
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Nov 92 06:41:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 2:2403/10 - FidoNet Berli, Berlin 41
Lines: 11

Hello All!

Did anybody know about the formula to calculate the optimum pyramid-angle for an other place than Africa?

cheers
   Andre

--
Andre Eichner - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13000 alt.alien.visitors:11486 sci.skeptic:35023
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!pipex!warwick!str-ccsun!dct.ac.uk!mcsdc1al
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Alien Ships.y
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Nov 92 10:58:58 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>  <[e-mail]>
Organization: Dundee Institute of Technology
Lines: 43

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Carl J Lydick) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Doug Thompson) writes:
>>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>>
>>> change.  There's no reason at all why there couldn't be a thousand species of
>>> animal living hundreds of miles below the Earth's surface.
>>
>>Well, actually there is one reason. It's called *lava* or *magma*. You
>>know, the stuff that comes out of volcanoes?

Look, the suggestion that there could be undiscovered species below the Earth's
surface wasn't intended to be a genuine scientific claim.  The main point was
to highlight the fact that there is a lot about our own planet we have still to
learn, let alone anyone else's.


>
> And before mcsdc1al (he MUST be an alien with a name like that :-) counters
> with a claim that there's only magma and lava in SOME places, I'll ask him to
> explain, along with that claim, the Mohorovicic discontinuity.

"Mohorovic discontinuity" is a term, I don't understand.  Put the question in
standard English and I'll answer it if I can.  Or at least try.
    MCSDC1AL is my computer Username.  I didn't choose it and I am NOT an
alien.





> -----------------------------




---------------------------------------------------
> Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: [e-mail] | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL
>
> Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
> understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
> unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
> organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
> hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13001 alt.alien.visitors:11487 sci.skeptic:35024
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!pipex!warwick!str-ccsun!dct.ac.uk!mcsdc1al
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Alien Ships.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Nov 92 11:06:46 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>   <[e-mail]>
Organization: Dundee Institute of Technology
Lines: 44

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Thomas Kettenring) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
>>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Mitchell Porter) writes:
>>>[e-mail] writes:
>>>>While I would have to question the Aldeberon thing, there can be little
>>doubt
>>>                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^!
>>
>>THERE IS NO DOUBT.
>>
>>
>>>>that the pyramids in Egypt, along with The Nazca Pl
>>ains, are evidence of the
>>>>existence of extraterrestrial life.
>
> OK, now we know that you don't doubt it, and that you are CONVINCED in
> capital letters.  That means you either have very good evidence or you're
> closed-minded...
>
>>    I will not disclose my full knowledge on the net.
>>    Why don't you e-mail me and I might fill you in.

I'm not closed-minded at all, honestly.  I have knowledge, not evidence.  The
only physical proof of what I know is a series of journals stored, I believe,
at The Vatican.  These are considered sacred because they prove the existence
of Christ, but they also disprove a lot more.   That's all I'll say.



>
> Don't fill him in!  He's from the CIA, I know him! :-)
> (Is there another possible reason for not posting it, beside paranoia?)
>
Are you kidding?  I'm not exactly paranoic but I don't want to give anything
away.   Mail me Thomas.  Or anyone else.
    How about a mail discussion with the great so-called John Winston?  You
there, John?

> --


> thomas kettenring, 3 dan, kaiserslautern, germany
> "Every three months I tell all of the new recruits that they are supposed to
> stand here and not there to get their uniforms, but they just don't learn!"
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13002 alt.alien.visitors:11488 sci.skeptic:35025
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!pipex!warwick!str-ccsun!dct.ac.uk!mcsdc1al
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Alien Ships.  JASON!!!!!!!!!!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Nov 92 11:19:33 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Dundee Institute of Technology
Lines: 56

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jason D Corley ) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jason D Corley ) writes:
>>> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>>>>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Pete Ashdown) writes:
>>> Look, the whole Hollow Earth theory is completely ludicrous.  If
>>> indeed the Earth is hollow, then how do you explain its gravitational
>>> activity, calculated to several dozen decimal places with several
>>> dozen objects?  We can measure the force of gravity and from that
>>> we can get the mass of the Earth.  If the Earth is hollow, then
>>> the force of gravity would be less...but it isn't, so it ain't.
>>> Hate to be the shriveled carrot under your peach cobbler, but the
>>> world ain't hollow and there ain't nobody inside.
>>>>
>>
>>No one said the Earth is hollow.  That would be a ludicrous thing to suggest
>>because we know it to be untrue.  What I was really suggesting was that there
>>is a possibility that there are undiscovered species on this planet, maybe even
>>ancestors to Homo Sapiens that have evolved differently through enviromental
>>change.  There's no reason at all why there couldn't be a thousand species of
>>animal living hundreds of miles below the Earth's surface.
>>
>>
>>
>>    The pyramids were built by aliens aided by the Egyptians, using sound to
>>construct them.
>>    The Nazca lines  were ORIGINALLY runways for UFOs.  After alien activity
>>and research in the area stopped the Nazca indians added to the lines creating
>>pictures in the plains.  They even learned how to fly from the aliens allowing
>>them to see their work.
>
> 1. We do not know for sure that there is no underground "differently-\
>    evolved" (how's THAT for political correctness?), that is true.
>    Please reference the other follow-ups from people who pointed out,
>    correctly, that if you make this claim, you must have proof.
>
> 2. I'm sorry.  If you feel that THEY will get you if you post about the
>    pyramids or the Nazca lines, and therefore remain silent, then I have
>    no choice but to brand you a psychotic and return to believing the
>    logical and extensively researched anthropological standpoint, which
>    is that people build the Pyramids and the Nazca lines, and that they
>    did it themselves, with nothing but ingenuity, slaves, and theological
>    clarity.  Did I mention hard work?  OK, hard work too.  What you say
>    may or may not be true, but unless you can prove it, I have no choice
>    but to assume it is untrue.

What I have to say is very sensitive, Jason.  It doesn't belong on the net in
any place.  I got hauled up for slagging off Red Dwarf, let alone questioning
the very fundamentels of Christianity.  People get quite nervous with that kind
of thing.  Also, this is like, totally classified info and strewth THEY might
come for me.  It goes a load deeper than Nazca lines I'll assure you.
    Mail me, Jason.


>
>     Jason
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13004 alt.alien.visitors:11489
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!gumby!destroyer!fmsrl7!ef2007!pms706!ekimmina
From: [e-mail] (Eric Kimminau)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Ive been abducted!
Date: 30 Nov 1992 12:51:02 GMT
Organization: Ive fallen and I cant get up!
Lines: 42
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pms001.pms.ford.com
Keywords: Aliens, Abducted, TripIn article <[e-mail]>,

 A large object was coming down like you know what . Within three or
 four blinks of my eye it was hovering  over this little hill, right along
 side of me. The ship descended so rapidly that it startled me. I have never
 seen anything in my life move as fast as it movedd--from just a speck in the
 sky to a huge spaceship hovering over the top of the hill.  No sound,
 whatsoever. Not even a displacement of air.  You would have thought anything
 moving that fast through the air would break the sonic barrier or create a
 big whoosh from the air being pushed out of the way.  It looked like it was
 anchored over the top of the hill.
   In evaluating the size of the craft (which I did afterwards) I estimated
 that this particular spaceship was about 150 feet in diameter.  Unlike some
 of the other saucer pictures that you see, particularly the Adamski type
 spaceships which have round things sticking out of the bottom, this one was
 absolutely flat on the bottom.  There wasn't anything sticking out of it.
 Its height was about 45 to 50 feet from the bottom to the very top.  The
 outer perimenter of the ship was round.
   What looked like a bright light at the top of the ship was actually a
 half-round circle of what appeared to be some type of crystalline substance
 like glass.  There was a detectable glow coming from it.  (I found out later
 that this was where the forcefield was exiting the ship and that is where it
 was coming out of at the time.  I imagine it radiated outward from other
 places around the ship and spread out around the rim when they were in
 movement. But when it was just hovering it was glowing at the one particular
 point.)
   A strange thing happened. I made the decision to get a close look, so I
 walked up the side of the hill. As I got under the edge of the ship, I
 noticed that even with the light jacket I was wearing, and particularly on
 the backs of my hands, that the hair just stood up.  I noticed a prickling
 senstion on my skin.  I could associate this with being around a high
 voltage source of  electricity; you sometimes notice this same thing
 occuring.  Apparently there was an electrical discharge in the air around
 the ship, becouse its power was still turned on while it was hovering.
   As I was standing there lookng up at the ship, there was a slight noise and
 then a doorway opend on the outer rim of the ship. I was fascinated because
 it looked like it was a tongue-and-grooved type thing.  Then a stairway
 decended from the opening. (I looked at the mechanics of it later and this
 astairway was not flexible, it was rigid. Somewhere there was a pivot point
 so it slanted down, came out a little way and then dropped down.)
 That is the last thing I remember.
|> John Winston.


Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13005 alt.alien.visitors:11490 sci.skeptic:35028
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!uunet!olivea!charnel!sifon!thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu!homer.cs.mcgill.ca!jeffjc
From: [e-mail] (Jeffrey CHANCE)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Astral 1.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Nov 92 13:49:32 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (Netnews Administrator)
Organization: SOCS - Mcgill University, Montreal, Canada
Lines: 45


John Winston wrote:
> Some people say that you should be careful that no one moves you while your
> on an astral journey because it will kill you if they break the silver cord
> but I've never been killed yet. I just wake up if someone shakes me.  Some
> people say you should have a teacher or Guru to accompany you on your trips
> but I could never seem to get all that organized so I just went anyway.
> After you get so far in all this business you'll find that the only real
> Guru is your higher self and if you can understand that little statement
> your pretty far advanced anyway.

About Gurus, it should be noted that all truly God-realized teachers
advise their students to devote themselves to their spiritual quest
for God and Truth, and not to get sidetracked by limited psychic
experiences along the way.


[e-mail] wrote:
>
>HOW DO YOU GO ABOUT MEETING A GURU, OR SOMEONE TO HELP YOU WITH ASTRAL
>PROJECTION ??

If you are looking for a Guru living in the physical right now, you
can try starting by looking at certain current publications like
Yoga Journal or Hinduism Today, or go to a bookstore and try and
find books that were written recently by teachers who claim to
have realized God. Then try and feel in your heart if you might
be meant to have a Guru, and what teacher seems to draw your
interest the most. That's at least a start. You can
also read books by masters who have since left the physical-
these books can teach you about Gurus and about how one finds
a Guru.

If you are just looking for a teacher to teach you astral projection,
many books about this subject are out (I assume, I don't read these
myself). John Winston also sounds well-versed in this area.


Jeff
--------------------------------------------------------------
|    Jeff Chance                       | That to which you   |
|    Dept. of Chemistry                | give your attention |
|    McGill University, Montreal       | becomes stronger in |
|    MAIL: [e-mail] | your life.          |
--------------------------------------------------------------
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13009 alt.alien.visitors:11491 sci.skeptic:35035
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!gatech!mailer.cc.fsu.edu!firnvx.firn.edu!waddell
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Pyramids
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 32
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News File Owner)
Nntp-Posting-Host: firnvx.firn.edu
Organization: Florida State University
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Nov 92 10:57:25 EST

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail]
   (kevin fisher U) writes:
> :
> :                                         ... and return to believing the
> :    logical and extensively researched anthropological standpoint, which
> :    is that people build the Pyramids and the Nazca lines, and that they
> :    did it themselves, with nothing but ingenuity, slaves, and theological
> :    clarity.  Did I mention hard work?  OK, hard work too.  What you say
> :    may or may not be true, but unless you can prove it, I have no choice
> :    but to assume it is untrue.
> :
> :     Jason

> I have a question here:  I've heard many times that it would be difficult
> (if not impossible) for even modern man to reproduce the pyramids with such
> engineering prowiss the egyptians did.  If this is true, how could they have
> done it in the first place?  How could they do something that we can't even
> reproduce?
>
> Just a question, no flame intended...
>
> --

Edgar Casey says that they understood and used anti-gravity.  Speaking of
which, did anyone else see the Australian produced program "Beyond 2000" on
the Discovery Channel that showed an electical-magnetic anti-gravity field
and that it's first commercial use would be in shock absorbers for cars?

Have fun!

   =-Kathy->                                   [e-mail]

Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:11492 sci.skeptic:35038
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!ut-emx!ccwf.cc.utexas.edu
From: [e-mail] (Patrick Chester)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Greys, Good or Bad
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Nov 92 09:06:32 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX
Lines: 29

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Anson Kennedy) writes:
>[e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer) writes:
>
>>     The only good Grey is a DEAD Grey! They're vicious, woman-raping,
>>     child-eating varmints!
>
>Not only that, but they smell bad, too.

To quote Pavel Chekov:

  "Vewy bad table manners."


Besides, they always steal the last parking place at the hobby shop I get
my gaming materials from.

I say:

FIRE THE WAVE GUN AT THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

<ahem> I feel better allready.

--
Patrick Chester            |----------------------------------------------------
[e-mail] |"The earth is too fragile a basket in which to keep
Politically Incorrect      |  all your eggs." Robert A. Heinlein
Future Lunar Colonist      |"The meek can *have* the Earth. The rest of us are
#^%$!! Militarist          |  going to the stars." Robert A. Heinlein
(Of the Sun Tzu mentality) |----------------------------------------------------
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13016 alt.alien.visitors:11493 sci.skeptic:35040
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!spool.mu.edu!sdd.hp.com!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!torn!skule.ecf!rosen
From: [e-mail] (ROSEN Dan)
Subject: Re: Pyramids
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Toronto, Engineering Computing Facility
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1992 18:19:05 GMT
Lines: 40

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail]
>   (kevin fisher U) writes:
>
>> I have a question here:  I've heard many times that it would be difficult
>> (if not impossible) for even modern man to reproduce the pyramids with such
>> engineering prowiss the egyptians did.  If this is true, how could they have
>> done it in the first place?  How could they do something that we can't even
>> reproduce?
>>
>> Just a question, no flame intended...
>>
>> --
>
>Edgar Casey says that they understood and used anti-gravity.  Speaking of
>which, did anyone else see the Australian produced program "Beyond 2000" on
>the Discovery Channel that showed an electical-magnetic anti-gravity field
>and that it's first commercial use would be in shock absorbers for cars?
>
If E. Casey said that, then it must be true.......NOT!

This amazing engineering expertise of the egyptian is one big fallacy (or
two :-) ). While they are to be admired for their advanced techniques, FOR THEIR
TIME. Certainly, they didn't accomplish anything fantastic, engineeringwise,
that cannot be accomplished today, or for that matter a few centuries ago.
The pyramids are NOT PERFECT. There are many defects in them. While they are
most certainly historic treasures, they are not something unnatural for their
time.

As for E. Casey..... he certainly didn't understand antigravity, nor many
other things he spoke about.

I strongly recomend "Flim-Flam" by James Randi (I think the publisher is
Prometheus books, in Buffalo). It has a pretty good treatment of Casey,
Von Daineken (his "theories" of the pyramids, etc), etc.

Best Regards

-Dan.

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!darwin.sura.net!spool.mu.edu!yale.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!usc!news.service.uci.edu!ucivax!megatek!max
From: [e-mail] (Max Elliot)
Subject: Re: John Winston and his unbelievable load of crap
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1992 17:27:12 GMT
Lines: 11


  I am finally pushed over the brink as well. I can't take the amazing
  amount of unrelated bullshit that JW posts. It is a real waste of
  bandwidth and a shame to the entire group. He is diluting this group's
  interest and effectiveness completely. I really am beginning to wonder
  if he isn't a smokescreen. Welcome to the kill file John Winston.
  (it really takes a LOT of BS for me to put someone in my kill file).

  Discouraged by ignorant, heedless and self seeking JW.

-Max
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!olivea!decwrl!deccrl!news.crl.dec.com!dbased.nuo.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!nntpd2.cxo.dec.com!acetek.enet.dec.com!timpson
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Strange facts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Nov 92 16:11:28 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Reply-To: [e-mail] ()
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 28



In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
|>Path: nntpd2.cxo.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!news.crl.dec.com!deccrl!enterpoop.mit.edu!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!news.claremont.edu!nntp-server.caltech.edu!keith

|>I myself read this in some book (can't remember which).  They superimposed
|>an American Military satellite photo centred on Cairo over the original
|>mystery map and they were very close..


These maps are called the Perry Resse maps (Spelling possibly incorrect I am working from memory)  thats all I know about them.  Old data...


Steve  Food_for_the_Greys/Reptoids

P.S.  To Gary Stollman.  The plastic Jesus on my dashboard told me to tell you to GET A LIFE!!!!

--
        -----------------------------------------------------------------
        |                                                               |
        |  My atheism, like that of Spinoza, is true piety towards the  |
        |  universe and denies only gods fashioned by men in their own  |
        |  image to be servants of their human interests.               |
        |                                                               |
        |                                  -- George Santayana          |
        |                                                               |
        -----------------------------------------------------------------

Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!olivea!decwrl!deccrl!news.crl.dec.com!dbased.nuo.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!nntpd2.cxo.dec.com!acetek.enet.dec.com!timpson
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Pyramids
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Nov 92 16:14:06 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Reply-To: [e-mail] ()
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 30



In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Andre Eichner) writes:

|>Hello All!
|>
|>Did anybody know about the formula to calculate the optimum pyramid-angle for an other place than Africa?
|>
|>cheers
|>   Andre


dosn't matter.  you use the same dimensions for a home pyramid as that of the
Cyops pyramid in Egypt.  (Not the same lengths but angles)


Steve Food_for_the_Greys/Reptoids


--
        -----------------------------------------------------------------
        |                                                               |
        |  My atheism, like that of Spinoza, is true piety towards the  |
        |  universe and denies only gods fashioned by men in their own  |
        |  image to be servants of their human interests.               |
        |                                                               |
        |                                  -- George Santayana          |
        |                                                               |
        -----------------------------------------------------------------

Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!emory!wupost!uunet!pipex!warwick!str-ccsun!dct.ac.uk!buxduac
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ^^^DUNDEE UFO^^^^
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Nov 92 17:04:45 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Dundee Institute of Technology
Lines: 34

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
> In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
>> Think I saw a UFO over Dundee on Monday evening at 4.40pm over the Tay.
>>
>> It started with a bright pinpoint of light over the Tay.  I was sitting staring
>> out of the window and noticed it and thought it was just a bright star (it was
>> almost completely dark outside).  Then it started to move from it's stationary
>> position with increasing speed towards the city centre  along the Tay.  I then
>> thought it was a plane because they come over quite often towards Dundee
>> Airport, but I was confused about how it had been standing still, like a star.
>> Then it made a wide turn and swept back far closer to my position and I was
>> able to see that the object was quite flat and didn't seem to have wings or
>> tail.  All the time it had a single white light shining, similar to craft I
>> have seen before.
>>
>> Did anyone else in Dundee/area see this object?
>>
>>


No I didn't see this one but I do very often see the same thing on my way home
across the bridge.  It always turns out to be a plane of some sort.  The reason
it appears to hang in the air quite still is that is coming straight towards
you at a relitivly slow speed.  Planes at dundee aitport are small affiars
(single engine prop planes mostley).  Because DCT (I assume thats where you
where) is quite high up in relation to the airport, you probably saw the
plane side on at that point when i turned.

Either that or it was someone from the esoteric society giving a display
of Astral Projection, (what night did you say it was ) :-)

Andy C
.

Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13018 alt.alien.visitors:11498 sci.skeptic:35046
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!malgudi.oar.net!caen!destroyer!ncar!noao!amethyst!organpipe.uug.arizona.edu!helium!corleyj
From: [e-mail] (Jason D Corley )
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Pyramids
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Nov 92 18:58:26 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Arizona, Tucson, AZ
Lines: 33

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail]
>   (kevin fisher U) writes:
>> :
>
>> I have a question here:  I've heard many times that it would be difficult
>> (if not impossible) for even modern man to reproduce the pyramids with such
>> engineering prowiss the egyptians did.  If this is true, how could they have
>> done it in the first place?  How could they do something that we can't even
>> reproduce?
>>
>> Just a question, no flame intended...
>>
>
>Edgar Casey says that they understood and used anti-gravity.  Speaking of

I think you mean Cayce, the occultist and lunatic.

To respond to the original post--it is true that it would be difficult
to build the pyramids, even today.  It was difficult back then, too.
However, it is by no stretch of the imagination impossible.  There
are several fascinating books on the subject of the construction of
the pyramids (though I can't remember any of the titles right now...)
In essence, the pyramids were constructed by assembling a layer, putting
very shallow ramps along the edge of that layer that would provide the
means to getting the blocks of stone up to the next layer, and so on.
There were a lot more complexities than this, but I think that's
a general overview.  There is no need to posit extraterrestrial
interference or anti-gravity.  They are simply anthropological artifacts
and should be treated as such.

    Jason
    The Shriveled Prune at the Bottom Of The Blueberry Pie
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13020 alt.alien.visitors:11499 sci.skeptic:35049
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!uunet!das.wang.com!wang!news
From: [e-mail] (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: Alien Ships.
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1992 08:45:33 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: talk.religion.newage
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 11

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

    I will not disclose my full knowledge on the net.
    Why don't you e-mail me and I might fill you in.

But it will cost two-fifty.
--
/|/-\/-\       I'll leave you with this saying:
 |__/__/_/     I selected E5... but I didn't hear ``Sam the Sham and the
 |warren@      Pharoahs''!
/ nysernet.org
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13021 alt.alien.visitors:11500 sci.skeptic:35050
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!uunet!das.wang.com!wang!news
From: [e-mail] (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: Greys, Good or Bad
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1992 09:06:10 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: talk.religion.newage
References: <[e-mail]> <stone.721943773@cwis> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 14

ak = [e-mail] (Anson Kennedy)
rs = [e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer)

rs: The only good Grey is a DEAD Grey! They're vicious, woman-raping,
rs: child-eating varmints!

ak: Not only that, but they smell bad, too.

But do they taste like chicken?
--
/|/-\/-\       I'll leave you with this saying:
 |__/__/_/     FROZEN ENTREES may be flung by members of opposing SWANSON
 |warren@      SECTS..
/ nysernet.org
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13022 alt.alien.visitors:11501 sci.skeptic:35051 alt.religion.kibology:4936
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.religion.kibology
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!uunet!das.wang.com!wang!news
From: [e-mail] (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: Alien Ships.
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1992 10:58:23 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: talk.religion.newage
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>    <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 16

tk = [e-mail] (Thomas Kettenring)
m  = [e-mail]

m: THERE IS NO DOUBT.

tk: OK, now we know that you don't doubt it, and that you are CONVINCED in
tk: capital letters.

If someone is convinced in capital letters, does one have to use more
capital letters in trying to change that person's mind?  What if
they're convinced in 20 point Palatino-Italic?
--
/|/-\/-\       I'll leave you with this saying:
 |__/__/_/     It was a JOKE!! Get it?? I was receiving messages from DAVID
 |warren@      LETTERMAN!! YOW!!
/ nysernet.org
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13023 alt.alien.visitors:11502 sci.skeptic:35053
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!das.wang.com!wang!news
From: [e-mail] (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: Alien Ships.
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1992 15:25:38 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: talk.religion.newage
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 20

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (kevin fisher U) writes:

>I have a question here:  I've heard many times that it would be difficult
>(if not impossible) for even modern man to reproduce the pyramids with such
>engineering prowiss the egyptians did.  If this is true, how could they have
>done it in the first place?  How could they do something that we can't even
>reproduce?

Is this actually true?  I would think that we most certainly could,
given a large enough budget.  Of course we may not know all of the
forgotten tricks of the trade, but I suppose we could rediscover them
with enough R+D.

But it would probably cost too much, a Pharaoh could divert the
next ten years' irrigation-ditch budget to building a pyramid.
--
/|/-\/-\       I'll leave you with this saying:
 |__/__/_/     I feel better about world problems now!
 |warren@
/ nysernet.org
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13024 alt.alien.visitors:11503 sci.skeptic:35062
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 92 15:21:46 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 16

Subject: Answers.
  I have just got through reading the questions and comments of the following
people; Doug, Carl, Kevin, Kathy, Jason Patrich, Rick, Tim, Paul, Brian
Thomas and others. I am still here reading your postings.  A person asked
the question; How do you go about meeting a Guru to help you with astral
projedtion? That's a pretty hard one to answer because to do it I have to
first explain how to send forth a thought form. To do this one should first
think of the thing that you want and make sure that it is for you good (in
this case that you want to come in contact with someone to teach you how to
accomplish astral projection). After thinking of it then put your mind on
something else (like looking at your watch to see what time it is). Do this
for about 3 times in the morning and at night and you will be led to someone
who can help you. I've been able to do this with a person and go back into
another lifetime with them and we both together look at the lifetime
together.
John Winston.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!utcsri!torn!watserv2.uwaterloo.ca!mach1!kfisher3
From: [e-mail] (kevin fisher U)
Subject: Re: Strange facts
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
References: <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Wilfrid Laurier University
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1992 23:03:40 GMT
Lines: 21

Keith Allan Schneider ([e-mail]) wrote:
: [e-mail] (kevin fisher U) writes:
:
: >I myself read this in some book (can't remember which).  They superimposed
: >an American Military satellite photo centred on Cairo over the original
: >mystery map and they were very close..
:
: What book?  Who's "they"?  (as in "they superimposed an American...")
:
: keith
:
Sorry, can't remember book name, it was a while ago..
but 'they' was obviously the american military people (at least I believe
that's what the book said).


--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kevin Fisher  ><>     |  "Thank you.  You can't believe everything you
[e-mail]   |  see and hear, can you?" - Hendrix, 'EXP'
________________________________________________________________________________
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13026 alt.alien.visitors:11505 sci.skeptic:35065
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!darwin.sura.net!jvnc.net!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!wells!beyonet!steve
From: [e-mail] (Steve Urich)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Dayy
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Nov 92 22:15:20 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Beyonet - Zero Network
Lines: 23

In <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
[Partial Trogladyte post deleted]
>WINSTON!  Is there no end to your impertinence?  Nobody cares about your
>totally sad dribblings...why don't you do something constructive with
>your imagination?  Whycan't you keep it to yourself?


    Hi, I know what you mean about "Winston the trogladyte". I been
    auto-killing his posts since he got on the net and started. Could
    you please remove any of his stupid posts when you reply to him
    in news so I don't have to read it? :^) This guy make me want
    to scream "WHAT THE F*CK!?!?" when he first started his babbling.
    I have no Idea where this guy was hatched but it definately wasn't
    on this Earth.


    Ciao
    Steve
--
|Stephen Urich|        Internet:[e-mail]         | "Cattle mutilations |
|NIC: SU2     |        UUCP:uunet!beyonet!steve        | are up!" --Sneakers |
|ARS: WB3FTP  | Packet:WB3FTP@WB3FTP.#EPA.PA.USA.NOAM  | ax25<->PBBS<->IPGATE|
|Bensalem, PA |Radio:[e-mail][44.80.8.44]| TCP/IP-FTP-SMTP-UNIX|
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13027 alt.alien.visitors:11506 sci.skeptic:35066
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!darwin.sura.net!jvnc.net!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!wells!beyonet!steve
From: [e-mail] (Steve Urich)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Nov 92 22:22:21 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Beyonet - Zero Network
Lines: 17

morwyn.uucp![e-mail] writes:
>    Can someone tell me how to use a 'kill' file?  I've never really
>    had such a need up until this point.

    Sure if your using trn just do a control K to edit the kill file.
    Next enter a line like so:
    /From: John_-_Winston/h:j

    Then save it.

    Your Welcome...
    Steve
--
|Stephen Urich|        Internet:[e-mail]         | "Cattle mutilations |
|NIC: SU2     |        UUCP:uunet!beyonet!steve        | are up!" --Sneakers |
|ARS: WB3FTP  | Packet:WB3FTP@WB3FTP.#EPA.PA.USA.NOAM  | ax25<->PBBS<->IPGATE|
|Bensalem, PA |Radio:[e-mail][44.80.8.44]| TCP/IP-FTP-SMTP-UNIX|
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!darwin.sura.net!sgiblab!adagio.panasonic.com!nntp-server.caltech.edu!keith
From: [e-mail] (Keith Allan Schneider)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Pyramids
Date: 30 Nov 1992 23:21:17 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu

[e-mail] (Andre Eichner) writes:

>Hello All!

>Did anybody know about the formula to calculate the optimum pyramid-angle for an other place than Africa?

What do you mean by "optimum pyramid-angle"?  Optimum for what purpose?

keith

Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13029 alt.alien.visitors:11508 sci.skeptic:35075
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!news.cso.uiuc.edu!uxa.cso.uiuc.edu!jbh55289
From: [e-mail] (Josh 'K' Hopkins)
Subject: Re: Pyramids
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Net Noise owner)
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1992 03:56:37 GMT
Lines: 29

[e-mail] writes:

>> I have a question here:  I've heard many times that it would be difficult
>> (if not impossible) for even modern man to reproduce the pyramids with such
>> engineering prowiss the egyptians did.  If this is true, how could they have
>> done it in the first place?  How could they do something that we can't even
>> reproduce?

>Edgar Casey says that they understood and used anti-gravity.

Which is of course garbage.  When a historian says something along the lines
of "the ancients did things we can't" they're exagerating some impressive
engineering.  Many ancient engineers could fit stonework together tightly enough
that they didn't need mortar/cement.  This is good because many ancient
societies didn't have cement.  Most skill could easily be reproduced if we
needed them, but no one in the modern age has those skills because no one needs
them.

The Pyramids/Cathedrals/Stonehenge/ancient-monument-of-your-choice are
impressive and would take a significant undertaking even today.  However, it's
insulting to suggest that their builders needed alien help or exotic technology.
They achieved these accomplishments by spending decades or more on projects
that received a large percent of the community's resources because of their
importance.

--
Josh Hopkins                                          [e-mail]

    "Why put off 'til tomorrow what you're never going to do anyway?"
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!psuvax1!rutgers!flop.ENGR.ORST.EDU!reed!henson!news.u.washington.edu!news.uoregon.edu!darkwing.uoregon.edu!delancey
From: [e-mail] (Scott C DeLancey)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Strange facts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Dec 92 01:03:32 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Oregon Network Services
Lines: 17
NNTP-Posting-Host: darkwing.uoregon.edu

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] () writes:
>
>
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Keith Allan Schneider) writes:
>
>|>I myself read this in some book (can't remember which).  They superimposed
>|>an American Military satellite photo centred on Cairo over the original
>|>mystery map and they were very close..
>
>
>These maps are called the Perry Resse maps (Spelling possibly incorrect I am working from memory)  thats all I know about them.  Old data...
>
Piri Reis, I think.  The book is called _Maps of the Ancient Sea Kings_,
by Charles Hapgood (I think -- there's a Mallory who comes in here
somewhere, too, but I don't think he's the author of the book).

Scott DeLancey
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13031 alt.alien.visitors:11510 sci.skeptic:35078
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!psinntp!wrldlnk!usenet
From: "James F. Tims" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Alien Ships.
In-Reply-To: <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: 127.0.0.1
Organization: Semper Excelsior
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1992 22:46:40 GMT
X-Mailer: PSILink (3.2)
Lines: 63

>FROM:   kevin fisher U <[e-mail]>
>
[...]
>:    is that people build the Pyramids and the Nazca lines, and that they
>:    did it themselves, with nothing but ingenuity, slaves, and theological
>:    clarity.  Did I mention hard work?  OK, hard work too.  What you say

Seems to be the case.

>:     Jason
>I have a question here:  I've heard many times that it would be difficult
>(if not impossible) for even modern man to reproduce the pyramids with such

Balderdash.  Prohibitively expensive, yes.  Impossible?  Not at all.

>engineering prowiss the egyptians did.  If this is true, how could they have
>done it in the first place?  How could they do something that we can't even
>reproduce?
>

Ah,  but we can, at least in miniature.


>Kevin Fisher  ><>     |  "Thank you.  You can't believe everything you

My apologies for not remembering whether it was the Discovery
Channel or PBS (NOVA, maybe?), but I recently watched a very
enjoyable show about the Pyramids.  One archaeologist sort of
refereed while others presented their theories.  One archaeologist
was able to construct a small pyramid with replicas of the Egyptian
tools, employing local Egyptian labor.  Another character, an
architect from New York(?), had some theories about how they levered
the stones into place.  At the end, there was a sort of collaboration
of the two trying lifting the topmost stone into place.

It was interesting to see how wooden runners, running over a mud
surface, were sufficient to allow relatively few workers to drag
a pyramid-sized stone up a ramp.  The Geza plain is littered with
the very sort of material that these guys used to build their ramps,
i.e. the chips from squaring the stones.  The workers were able to
use simple techniques to carve the stones to fit, to establish the
corners and slope of the pyramid, build the ramps, and toward the end,
as they became better at it, were able to fit the stones together
almost as well as the original builders (who were vastly more
experienced at their "trade").  The conjecture that early Egyptians
couldn't achieve the precision we find in the stones' intersticing
without extraterrestrial help seems to be without any merit
whatsoever.  Not only did these men show how it could be done,
they actually did it.  It seemed pretty straightforward.  No
aliens or magic required.

Similar extraordinary claims have been made for the Easter Island
statues.  One needs to see Thor Heyerdahl's documentary film (1957?)
to fully realize how empty such claims are.  Watching the islanders
putting up the statue or sitting around drinking Budweiser while
they braided rope from the grass growing wild on the plain, one
is struck by the ordinariness of it all.  I suppose within a few
centuries, the heirs to idiocy will be claiming alien intervention
for the construction of the Empire State Building.  Or are they
already? 8^)

-jim tims

Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!copper!mercury.cair.du.edu!mnemosyne.cs.du.edu!nyx!mporter
From: [e-mail] (Mitchell Porter)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.fan.steve.food-for-the-greys
Subject: Re: Strange facts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Dec 92 04:21:04 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (netnews admin account)
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
Lines: 6

[e-mail] writes:
>These maps are called the Perry Resse maps (Spelling possibly incorrect I am working from memory)  thats all I know about them.  Old data...
Piri Reis (or Re'is? not sure of that bit). I have read about them (it?) a
number of times in paperbacks with titles like "Great Unsolved Mysteries
of the Planet" but unfortunately don't have a refernce. perhaps someone
else will be able to look it up?
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!spool.mu.edu!agate!ames!news.hawaii.edu!uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu!osborne
From: [e-mail] (Larry N. Osborne)
Subject: Piri Re'is map (was Re: Strange facts)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News Service)
Nntp-Posting-Host: uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu
Organization: University of Hawaii
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1992 07:10:27 GMT
Lines: 51

In article <[e-mail]>
[e-mail] (Kumaran Santhanam) writes:

>Here's another interesting fact:
> In the late 1800s a map was found in the possession of a Turkish
>admiral.  This looked in a way like a map of the world, but was
>extremely distorted.  Because of this supposed inaccuracy, the map was
>given to a museum and left on display.  This map was really a copy of
>a copy of a copy...etc.  The real age of the first one is unknown.
>However, experts have determined that the youngest it could be is late
>1700s.  Keep in mind that this is the absolute YOUNGEST and the
>original is thought to be many hundreds if not thousands of years old.
>Anyway, to get to the point...Nothing was really thought of this map
>until the late 1950s and early 1960s when satelite photography was
>invented.
...and so on through another couple of paragraphs of stuff

I'd just like to point out that while the description above is wrong
in almost every particular, the Piri Re'is map (and other ancient
maps) is weird nonetheless.  It was discovered in 1929 in the old
Imperial Palace in Constantinople.  It caused immediate excitement
because it obviously showed the coast of America.  The map was dated
1513 (well 919, but that was in the Islamic calendar form).  Since that
was only 20 years after Columbus's first trip, it was generally
conceded that somebody had been quick off the mark.  Further Re'is
claimed that the map was based on one drawn by Columbus among others.

Professor Charles Hapgood, of Keene (New Hampshire) State College,
investigated this map and many other old maps, and did, indeed, find
that several were based on a grid centered in Cairo (or Alexandria),
showed Antarctica, had glaciers in Europe, etc.  All this began as a
class project, and continued with the help of students and ex-students.
(Would that my professors had been so neat ... would that I were.)
You can read all about it in <Maps of the Ancient Sea Kings: Evidence
of Advanced Civilization in the Ice Age> by Charles H. Hapgood.  The
first edition was in 1969 published by Chilton, but mine is the 1979
Dutton Paperback edition.  (LCCN: 79-51187, ISBN 0-525-47606-7).  Most
big libraries probably have a copy, if not they ought to be able to
get it for you through Interlibrary Loan.

I'd be very leary of 'ole VD (the author, not the disease).  <Chariots
of the Gods> was an interesting (if a trifle breathless) rehash of
Jessup and others, and actually pointed out a number of historic
mysteries, but his later works were (self-admittedly) fiction.

-oz
--
[e-mail] (preferred)      | Larry N Osborne
[e-mail]                           | SLIS, 2550 The Mall
fax [phone]                             | University of Hawaii at Manoa
or via W.A.S.T.E.                               | Honolulu, Hawaii  96822
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13036 alt.alien.visitors:11513 alt.religion.kibology:4937
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!darwin.sura.net!haven.umd.edu!uunet!world!kibo
From: [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry)
Subject: Re: Ive been abducted! IN BED
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: Aliens, Abducted, TripIn article <[e-mail]>,
Organization: Two rooms filled with typography, in downtown Boston
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1992 06:07:56 GMT
Lines: 16

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Eric Kimminau) writes:
>   As I was standing there lookng up at the ship, there was a slight noise and
> then a doorway opend on the outer rim of the ship. I was fascinated because
> it looked like it was a tongue-and-grooved type thing.  Then a stairway
> decended from the opening. (I looked at the mechanics of it later and this
> astairway was not flexible, it was rigid. Somewhere there was a pivot point
> so it slanted down, came out a little way and then dropped down.)
> That is the last thing I remember.
>|> John Winston.

Do you mean you were abducted by "Bibo" himself, the nefarious John_-_Winston?

And do tell us more about these aliens with the groovin' tongues.

                        -- K.

Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13038 alt.alien.visitors:11514 alt.religion.kibology:4942
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!spool.mu.edu!nigel.msen.com!fmsrl7!ef2007!pms706!ekimmina
From: [e-mail] (Eric Kimminau)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Ive been abducted! IN BED
Date: 1 Dec 1992 12:20:27 GMT
Organization: Ford Motor Company
Lines: 19
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pms001.pms.ford.com
Keywords: Aliens, Abducted, TripIn article <[e-mail]>,

Lets go space truckin', come on!

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry) writes:
|> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Eric Kimminau) writes:
|> >   As I was standing there lookng up at the ship, there was a slight noise and
|> > then a doorway opend on the outer rim of the ship. I was fascinated because
|> > it looked like it was a tongue-and-grooved type thing.  Then a stairway
|> > decended from the opening. (I looked at the mechanics of it later and this
|> > astairway was not flexible, it was rigid. Somewhere there was a pivot point
|> > so it slanted down, came out a little way and then dropped down.)
|> > That is the last thing I remember.
|> >|> John Winston.
|>
|> Do you mean you were abducted by "Bibo" himself, the nefarious John_-_Winston?
|>
|> And do tell us more about these aliens with the groovin' tongues.
|>
|>                         -- K.
Thanks for not sending me netmail and asking if I would tell you more about it like 2 other readers did. Im glad someone else saw through the BS as was intended.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!portal!tdonnell
From: [e-mail] (Tim Donnelly)
Subject: Re: Piri Re'is map (was Re: Strange facts)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: VideOcart Inc.
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1992 13:27:50 GMT
Lines: 11

I wanted to add a quick note regarding the Piri R'eis discussion.

I am new to i-net, and was very impressed to see how a simple, sketchy
description of an unusual topic unfolded into a true, detailed fact.
A number of people offered their opinions and tidbits until a complete
conclusion was found.  If people could manage to take some things a
little more seriously first, before flaming them, more questions might
get answered.  There is a lot of collective knowledge out there.

M. Marsh

Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13039 alt.alien.visitors:11516 sci.skeptic:35104
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: The Extraterrestial Within.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue,  1 Dec 92 06:53:53 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 41

Subject: Have You Got An Extraterrestial In You?
  Last year I went to a special lecture by a friend of Dr. David Kamatizer's
here in the San Francisco Bay Area. This person's name is Arthur and we
called him Art for short. Not that he is all that short and short is not his
last name but anyway. Art is a person who had been educated and had worked
as a psychiatrist. He had been doing well in his profession when one day he
was driving along and suddenly had the feeling that he should drive his car
into a bridge and kill himself.  Just before he accomplished this deed he
gained control of his mind and didn't go through with it.  After that time
he went to a lot of seminars on new ways to heal people. During that time he
found out that when people die during adverse conditions, under high stress
and other conditions, their intelligence is let loose into the earth and all
they can see is the light that is projected from another living person.
When they see the light they are attracted to it and attach themselves to
it. Many of these people don't believe they are dead and they don't believe
they are in another person so they keep on living as if they were alive in
the other person.
  This condition causes a lot of problems in the living person because many
times they don't believe in this sort of stuff either. They are sent to
doctors who don't know anything about it either and the people are sent away
to the nut house.
  Art finally found that there was a way to get these extra entities out and
when you accomplished this a person would start feeling better and have a
lot more self control and would get out of the funny farm. This method would
also work on normal people who were not in the looney bin.
  This first thing that Art did was to contact a group of individuals on the
other side (spiritual people) I think he or someone else called them The
Angel Band. Art would say a lot of things to the patient to get his or her
permission to kick out the entity that was doing the bugging. Next he would
talk to the entity to tell him or her what was happening and what they had
been doing. They were told to leave and by a certain procedure they were
removed and taken by these good entities to the place where they could be
instructed and set on a path so they could progress.
  They found that not only misplaced entities were in a person but
extraterrestial were in there also. They also found trolls in there. I got
very excited when he said that because I had always thought of them just
being under bridges talking to billygoats. One of my friends who is a fairly
famous psychic had more than a thousand of them (more than a thousand
entities and one troll) kicked out of him.
End Part 1.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13041 alt.alien.visitors:11517
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Trip 2.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue,  1 Dec 92 08:16:58 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 62

Subject: Let's Take A Trip. Part 2.
  The stairway came down to where it was hovering about a foot off the ground.
It did not touch the ground,
  A moment later a man appeared; dressed in what appeared to be a one piece
suit of coveralls or a brown jumpsuit.  He was standing up at the top of the
stairs and then he stepped down one step and waved to me. He motioned for me
to come up, to come aboard.
  I thought for perhaps a one-millionth of a second, and then junped on the
first step and went racing up the stairs.  No sooner had I reached the top
of the stairs when he motioned for me to step sideways, away from the
stairway.  We moved over a foot or two from the hatchway and stood there for
a few moments watching he stairway retract and then tilt as it slid into a
little compartment.  The only thing I could ever think of, that comes close
to describing is this was a drawer sliding back into a filing cabinet. It
was on noiseless bearings or skids or something, because it didn't make any
noise.  Then the hatchway in the floor closed.
  I noticed that we were standing in a circular corrider which apparently went
all the way around the rim of the ship.  Next to us was a hallway that led
directly into the center of the ship.
 This man in brown clothing did not say anything and I was busy watching
everything going on .
  The thing that caught my attention was the fact that everything  there was
metallic.  There waas no relief of any type, to the sheer expanses of metal
itself.  There were no decorations on the walls, nothing on the floor--no
carpets or anything like that; it just looked like you had walked into a
submarine or something similar.  It was purely functional and immaculately
clean. I looked at the floor and there were no scuff marks on it, nor did it
look worn from walking.
  No lights wre detectable anywhere.  There was nothing hanging from the
ceiling nor on the sides of the walls, and yet everthing was well lit.  It
was just like outside in bright sunlight, it was that brightly lit.  It was
impossinble for me to detect where the light was coming from. The thing that
also amazed me was the fact that with him standing there beside me, there
were no shadows, which showed that whatever the illumination was, it was
very even.  Everything was very evenly lit.
  The hallway leading into the center of the ship, appeared like a long metal
tunnel. It was about 45 feet long with a doorway at the far end which was
closed.  It was a very plain looking door.
  Another thing that struck me was that there was no sound, none at all.  The
silence was getting a little embarrassing because I didn't know whether I
should say hello to this fellow or what.  I just decided I wouldn't say
anything.  I would wait for him to make the first overture.
  All of the metal that I saw had a satin finish to it. It was not highly
polished, kind of like a dull satin shine.
  After the stairway retracted and the door closed , he motioned to me again;
(he still hadn't said anything) indicating that I was to follow him.  He
walked down the length of the corridor toward the center  of the ship, with
me behind him.  He came to the door at the end of the corridor and it slid
sidways.  (I did not notice him do anything to open the door, no arm
movement, nothing.) Naturally, I was quite startled.
  He led me into a room which was apparently the main central room of the ship
or the control section of the ship. (I found out later that all of the depth
between the outer corridor and this inner room was compartmentalized.  There
were quarters and rooms in these sections, but I never was able to see what
they were like, We spent all of the time in this one huge room which was 90
feet in diameter.)
  There were four large curving sections of equipment.  These were in the form
of a circle broken into four quadrants.  This equipment appeared to be about
five feet away from the wall so you could walk behind them very easily.
End Part 2.
Source of material: Star Wards = Welcome Home Earthman by Richard Miller Page
12.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!usc!enterpoop.mit.edu!eru.mt.luth.se!lunic!sunic!ugle.unit.no!alf.uib.no!hsr.no!petro2.hsr.no!trondk_l
From: [e-mail] (Lindanger, Trond K.    8-94)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Our Friend, John_-_Winston
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Dec 92 16:05:38 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Rogaland University Centre
Lines: 17

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>From: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: Our Friend, John_-_Winston
>Date: 29 Nov 92 02:57:13 GMT

>have to realize that we are in a very low vibrational state and most of the
>space people are so much higher in freq. than us that we can't even see
>them.  You will find that the frequency of  our aura  will be proportional
>to our soul developement and many people don't even believe that they have a
>soul.

I often hear people use the words "vibrational rate" about beings. Could
anybody tell more about this? Any physical explanaitions/evidences?
By the way, i think people should ask more questions in this newsgroup.

Trond K. Lindanger
- Your friend in Norway
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13042 alt.alien.visitors:11519 sci.skeptic:35112
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!utcsri!torn!nott!bnrgate!bmerh85!bcarh1eb!zenith89
From: [e-mail] (Chris VanFleet)
Subject: Re: The Extraterrestial Within.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
Reply-To: [e-mail] ()
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Ltd., Ottawa, CANADA
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 92 16:35:38 GMT
Lines: 10

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Subject: Have You Got An Extraterrestial In You?
> ....(lots of junk deleted)...
>End Part 1.
>John Winston.

Yo, is John_-_Winston (aka "Bibo", aka "Somef kindaf nutf casef")
the "ANTI-KIBO"? I assume that if Kibo is renowned for his wit,
then the "anti-kibo" would be equally renowned for witlessness.
...CPV
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!spool.mu.edu!agate!garnet.berkeley.edu!ksanthan
From: [e-mail] (Kumaran Santhanam)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Piri Re'is map (was Re: Strange facts)
Date: 1 Dec 1992 18:08:47 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Lines: 9
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

Thanks for clarifying the details about the map, Larry.  I was merely trying
to remember as best I could an account from a shaky source which I had seen
many years ago.

*****************************************************************************
* Kumaran Santhanam                            [e-mail] *
*****************************************************************************
* "DOS is nothing more than a boot sector virus" - Anonymous                *
*****************************************************************************
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!spool.mu.edu!agate!garnet.berkeley.edu!ksanthan
From: [e-mail] (Kumaran Santhanam)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: More Strange Facts
Date: 1 Dec 1992 18:15:32 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

Ok!  Here's a new thread of weird and unusual facts.  This one centers on the
Hindu religion:

In the Hindu religion, the devas (or heaven-dwellers) have very marvelous and
powerful devices capable of doing much more than mortal man's tools.  One such
device was the Pushpaka Vimana (Flower Vehicle).  This chariot was such that
it required no horses and could fly at very high speeds.  Now, flying devices
are commonplace in many religions, but here comes the interesting part.  All
of the specific descriptions and effects of this vehicle paint a rather
complete picture of what this vehicle was really like.  Scientists and scholars
who studied the Ramayana and other Sanskrit scriptures came to the conclusion
that this vehicle was powered by advanced mercury ion propulsion and that all
of the descriptions given in the Hindu scriptures match the parameters of such
a device.  I thought that was quite an interesting tidbit.  If anyone has any
more specific information on it, please post.  I myself do not know Sanskrit
and if anybody who does has read the ancient documentation and has seen these
descriptions of the Pushpaka Vimana, please speak up.

'Till next time,

*****************************************************************************
* Kumaran Santhanam                            [e-mail] *
*****************************************************************************
* "DOS is nothing more than a boot sector virus" - Anonymous                *
*****************************************************************************
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!news.univie.ac.at!chx400!sparc2!news
From: [e-mail] (Paul Milsom)
Subject: Strange facts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: "Facts"
Sender: [e-mail] (Mr. Usenet)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Paul Milsom)
Organization: Neu-Technikum Buchs
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1992 17:56:32 GMT
Lines: 43


                            Strange Facts
                            -------------

There are lots of stories which we could dig up under this title, however
very few of them would actually be "facts".

Normally somebody comes up with *real* facts later, as in the case of the
pyramids, but the true believers can not always be disuaded.

Anyway, seeing as nobody else has yet offered a negative comment, here's what
Ronald Story wrote about the Piri Re'is map in his book "The Space-Gods
Revealed" (1976), pp 29-31:

    >Other specific errors are the omission of about 900 miles of South
    >American coastline, a duplication of the Amazon River, and the omission
    >of the Drake Passage between Cape Horn and the Antartic Peninsula ...
    >All of these discrepancies would seem to rule out the map's having been
    >derived from an aerial photograph.

I have met Erich von Dèniken (Daeniken) twice, and the second time I had the
courage to ask him more difficult questions than the first time (although
he's quite a likeable chap). I got the impression that he was going around
looking for things which were a little unusual and then saying "Look at
this!" without taking the trouble to find out if there was anything behind
his propositions.

The mathematician and astronomer Maria Reiche showed how the Nazca lines were
made, and why (giant calender - obervatory). The "iron pillar" which doesn't
rust was put there by the British about 150 years ago. Stonehenge, the
Pyramids and the Easter Island statues are equally explainable, if one cares
to inquire.

It's always best to try to find out more "facts" about a subject before
accepting and propagating a sensationalist story as true.
(But please leave me my ACIM! :-)
                                    Regards to you all,     Paul.




Paul Milsom
[e-mail]
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13046 alt.alien.visitors:11523 alt.religion.kibology:4945
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Space People
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue,  1 Dec 92 10:48:26 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 37

Subject: Ike.
  Many years ago my Guru told me a story that was going around the saucer club
people and the person telling the story would not even say who he or she was
because during those times a lot of people who were talking about their UFO
experiences were being killed. Later the story was written up in a book and
now it seems that everybody is telling about their experiences. Here's how
the story went; A person was taken up in a small saucer then taken aboard a
large mother, cigar shaped craft. He was seated around a conference table
with a lot of people in attentance. One of the people setting across the
table from him was the then president of the USA Ike. That's the end of that
story.
  The next thing he told me about was about the the blackout that covered the
USA many years back and it was later written up in a book. I believe the
book was called Earth's Destiny, or something like that. This story goes
along like this; There was once some space  people who had an underground
base in the NE part of the USA. They I believe were from Korina and called
themselves Korindians  (not to be confused with the Corinthians in the
bible). They were saying that the US was in danger of being taken over by a
foreign nation if they would come in and knock out a power plant and then
another one. This would cause an overload and cause the whole power grid
system to drop out.  This would put the US without power and we could be
taken over very easily. They then debated as to what they should do. Maybe
they should go and tell the government about it but they finally figured
that the government wouldn't listen to them because most people on Earth
don't even believe in the space people. They then decided it was best for
them to show the US by doing it themselves.  They had their flying saucers
at certain power plants and activated relays in the plants and others things
to make it look like some power plants had failed. Everything went as they
planned and no one was hurt.
  They contacted a T.V. star in his outside window of an apartment that was
high above the street and told him what they had done. They suggested that
the US put in a system that would keep this from happening and if they
didn't do this then the space people would do it again. The T.V. star told
the government about it and changes were made. The space people also knocked
out power in some other countries also.
  So that's the end of the second story.
John Winston.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!wupost!gumby!yale!yale.edu!ira.uka.de!math.fu-berlin.de!news.netmbx.de!zelator!leo
From: [e-mail] (Stefan Hartmann)
Subject: Re: Pictures of Alien (Roswell) -- Confirmation it is FAKE
Organization: Puplic-Access-Xenix-System
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 92 02:30:06 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 52

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Phil) writes:

>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Stefan Hartmann) writes:
>>In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Author) writes:
>>
>>>Hi, everyone. I was reading UFO Crash Secrets at Wright/Patterson Air
>>>Force base, by James W. Moseley. On the backcover of this book a picture
>...

>Then from  Stefan Hartmann, c/o Ingenierbuero Gatz & Hartmann.
>>email to:  [e-mail]
>>
>>This is only a well made doll, but a few UFO freaks stated it was real
>>!!
>>
>>This is the picture that is circulated !
>>

>I have seen the doll myself in Montreal on several occasions (in exhibits,
>pretty much inert I would say).

>I just wanted to confirm the fact that the picture are not genuine. If I had
>not seen the doll myself, I would be inclined to keep some uncertainty
>value for it plausibility, although very LOW.

>The doll has been used on occasions since the exhibit was dismantled.
>It seems that our "Quebec alien" is still well and alive .... :)

>--
>---
>Phil Durocher                   McGill Research Centre for Intelligent Machines
>[e-mail]      Computer Vision and Robotics Lab
>                                McGill University, Montreal

Hi,
very interesting your statement..

Please can you also say, for what purpose the doll was made for ?

Was this some kind of UFO exhibition or what kind of exhibition ??

Best regards, Stefan Hartmann,c/o Gatz & Hartmann
email to: [e-mail]


--

*************************************************************
*  Stefan Hartmann       This is how to contact me:         *
*  EMAIL: [e-mail]                          *
*  Phone : ++ 49 30 344 23 66      FAX : ++ 49 30 344 92 79 *
*************************************************************
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13047 alt.alien.visitors:11525 sci.skeptic:35124
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!darwin.sura.net!wupost!emory!ogicse!das-news.harvard.edu!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!netnews.srv.cs.cmu.edu!gerry
From: [e-mail] (Gerry Roston)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Pyramids
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Dec 92 18:21:53 GMT
Article-I.D.: onion.GERRY.92Dec1132153
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News System)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Gerry Roston)
Organization: Field Robotics Center, CMU
Lines: 27
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of 1 Dec 92 03:56:37 GMT
Nntp-Posting-Host: onion.frc.ri.cmu.edu

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Josh 'K' Hopkins) writes:

   Which is of course garbage.  When a historian says something along the lines
   of "the ancients did things we can't" they're exagerating some impressive
   engineering.  Many ancient engineers could fit stonework together tightly enough
   that they didn't need mortar/cement.  This is good because many ancient
   societies didn't have cement.  Most skill could easily be reproduced if we
   needed them, but no one in the modern age has those skills because no one needs
   them.

FYI, in Somerset county, PA, there is an annual fair where local stone
masons demonstrate building techniques with hand fashioned stones and
no mortar.  Their work exists in present day PA.

Hmm... maybe they're really aliens....

--
Gerry Roston ([e-mail])    | Society is produced by our wants, and
Field Robotics Center,          | government by our wickedness;...
Carnegie Mellon University      | Thomas Paine
Pittsburgh, PA, 15213           |
[phone]                  |
                                |
The opinions expressed are mine |
and do not reflect the official |
position of CMU, FRC, RedZone,  |
or any other organization.      |
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!spool.mu.edu!agate!garnet.berkeley.edu!ksanthan
From: [e-mail] (Kumaran Santhanam)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Strange facts
Date: 1 Dec 1992 19:30:53 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu
Keywords: "Facts"

What else should I call it then?  Facts is good enough.  Don't get worried
over semantics.  Just read and enjoy.  The whole purpose of my postings is
to start some discussion going on these things to find out what is really
behind them.  I like hard facts and that's why I've posted these soft ones
up...to see what hard facts come up.

*****************************************************************************
* Kumaran Santhanam                            [e-mail] *
*****************************************************************************
* "DOS is nothing more than a boot sector virus" - Anonymous                *
*****************************************************************************
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: underground facilities
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue,  1 Dec 92 12:42:23 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 2

Dear Folks: I find that information very interesting.
John Winston.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!usc!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!umn.edu!lynx!apsicc.aps.edu!jim
From: [e-mail] (frost...)
Subject: Heads Island
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 92 20:43:00 GMT
Organization: Albuquerque Public Schools - Career Enrichment Center
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41
Lines: 10

With all the talk about thee pyramids and such being bandied about by
some of the people on the Net I am very surprized taht nobody has pos-
tulated that the large and heavy stone heads on Easter Island were
built by aliens.
                        Jim
======================================================================
   We are rapidly ascending through prosperity to poverty...  Twain
                    Internet:    [e-mail]
       Albuquerque Public Schools - Instructional System Manager
======================================================================
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!ucla-cs!ucla-mic!MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU!CSMSPCN
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Strange facts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: MVS NNTP News Reader <[e-mail]>
Nntp-Posting-Host: mvs.oac.ucla.edu
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Dec 92 12:21:15 PST
Lines: 8

In article <[e-mail]>, on 1 Dec 1992 19:30:53 GMT,
[e-mail] (Kumaran Santhanam) writes:

>What else should I call it then?  Facts is good enough.

The word fact means something very specific to many of us.

How about "Strange assertions"
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!destroyer!lambda.msfc.nasa.gov!decwrl!deccrl!news.crl.dec.com!dbased.nuo.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!ryn.mro4.dec.com!est.enet.dec.com!randolph
From: [e-mail] (Tom Randolph)
Subject: Re: Strange facts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date:  1 DEC 92 15:12:56
Lines: 25


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Kumaran Santhanam) writes...
Ok, next question:
Why is alt.alien.visitors becoming the place to get an answer to any old
looney question one cares to ask?
Maybe it's time to rename to alt.weird.dear.abby, or just merge with
alt.skeptic or alt.paranormal and be done with it. Jeez, we've seen every
bloody weirdo crawl out of the woodwork to post in here:
      auras
      reincarnation
      astral projection
      bigfoot
      kirlian photography
      "alternate" energy sources
      atlantis and such ilk
      I'm sure I'm missing quite a few...
not to mention Weekly World News anchorman John_-_Winston, who can't seem to
realize we can pick up the Weekly World News ourselves if we have any interest
in reading that drivel. I have to agree with the postings that say this crap is
diluting and discrediting any good that could possibly come out of this
newsgroup. You really have to wonder when multiple people ask them to stop, and
they go right on posting the most inane garbage you've ever seen. Government
disinformation...?

-Tom R.   [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!spool.mu.edu!sgiblab!sono!mathur
From: [e-mail] (Sarvesh Mathur)
Subject: Re: More Strange Facts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Acuson; Mountain View, California
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1992 22:30:52 GMT
Lines: 33

[e-mail] (Kumaran Santhanam) writes:
: In the Hindu religion, the devas (or heaven-dwellers) have very marvelous and
: powerful devices capable of doing much more than mortal man's tools.  One such
: device was the Pushpaka Vimana (Flower Vehicle).  This chariot was such that
: it required no horses and could fly at very high speeds.  Now, flying devices
: are commonplace in many religions, but here comes the interesting part.  All
: of the specific descriptions and effects of this vehicle paint a rather
: complete picture of what this vehicle was really like.  Scientists and scholars
: who studied the Ramayana and other Sanskrit scriptures came to the conclusion
: that this vehicle was powered by advanced mercury ion propulsion and that all
: of the descriptions given in the Hindu scriptures match the parameters of such
: a device.  I thought that was quite an interesting tidbit.  If anyone has any
: more specific information on it, please post.  I myself do not know Sanskrit
: and if anybody who does has read the ancient documentation and has seen these
: descriptions of the Pushpaka Vimana, please speak up.
: *****************************************************************************

I have been studying this area a bit, and have obtained two books on the
subject. Apparently some years back, some westerners came across some ancient
texts from a South Indian Temple. They found several volumes.  One was on how
to make Vimanhas (There are several types) and another on How to Fly one!

One of the major problems with the the texts was the fact that many of the key
words listed in the texts simply had no meaning to the translators. They were
refering to objects/materials that nobody could decipher (The texts are in an
old form of Sanskit).

If there is any interest, I can get some more info from these books.

--
------------------------------------------------------
Sarvesh Mathur
[e-mail]
Organization: Doctoral student, English, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!news.sei.cmu.edu!fs7.ece.cmu.edu!crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!ak35+
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue,  1 Dec 1992 16:31:43 -0500
From: Andy Kurtz <[e-mail]>
Subject: Howe's An Alien Harvest
Lines: 12


I just received Howe's book through our inter-library loan.  Let me tell
everyone on the net that this is a must-see -- if not for its theories,
then for the photographs alone.  Since I have not seen the original
documentary (Strange Harvest) I am unable to say how the two play off
each other, except that the book is, at one level, about making the
documentary.  Great Stuff!!

BTW:  Does anyone know if the UFO Newsclipping Service and/or the
journal Stigmata are still around.  If so, could someone pass along
their addresses.
thanx, Andy
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!uunet!bcstec!kuryakin
From: [e-mail] (Rick Pavek)
Subject: Re: Contact Notes
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Boeing
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1992 00:01:12 GMT
Lines: 25

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeff) writes:
>
>And, if Cooper is correct, and Project Grudge Report #13 was written by Hynek,
>then Vallee's early carrer ties with Hynek place his credibilty as highly
>suspect.

I'd really recommend reading Vallee's _Forbidden Science_.  Personally,
I have to reach pretty far to entertain the notion that Vallee is part
of the problem.  I think that there is so little real data there, and
so much deliberate confusion created as a result of contactee cults,
and other con-artists out to make a buck that no one can say, with absolute
conviction that they know the _real_ story.  The people that know this
aren't talking.  (Battelle, Lockheed, Northrup, General Dynamics, Rockwell,
General Electric, DOD, DOE, the President, CIA, etc).

Before you go off spouting opinions, do your homework.


other

--
Rick Pavek                               |----------------------------|
[e-mail]               | Si ego certiorem faciam... |
kuryakin       AppleLink                 |  ...mihi tu delendus eris. |
r.pavek1       GEnie                     |----------------------------|
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13054 alt.alien.visitors:11534 sci.skeptic:35155
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!yale.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!sun-barr!olivea!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 2 Dec 92 02:22:30 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 4

Dear Humans: Kumar has suggested that we go to Stonehenge this week
on the OOBE train. He understands that the astral colors are great
there. So to England it shall be.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13055 alt.alien.visitors:11535
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!uunet!munnari.oz.au!bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au!griffin!kraken!hbsperki
From: [e-mail] (James Perkins)
Subject: Re: Ive been abducted!
Message-ID: <hbsperki.723260828@kraken>
Keywords: Aliens, Abducted, TripIn article <[e-mail]>,
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: kraken.itc.gu.edu.au
Organization: ITC, Griffith University, Brisbane, Australia
References: <[e-mail]>
Date:  2 Dec 92 01:47:08 GMT
Lines: 1

Nice work of fiction, John.  Have you sent it to a publisher yet?
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!spool.mu.edu!sgiblab!sgigate!odin!slugo.corp.sgi.com!rodb
From: [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith)
Subject: Re: Howe's An Alien Harvest
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Net News)
Nntp-Posting-Host: slugo.corp.sgi.com
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.
References:  <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1992 02:36:43 GMT
Lines: 20


Andy,

UFO NEWS CLIPPING SERVICE
Route 1 - Box 220
Plumerville, Arkasas 72127

Hope this helps out.

Rod

--
Rod Beckwith     |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Datacom I/S      |"The great obstacle of progress is not ignorance,
[e-mail]|but the illusion of knowledge."
                 |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$




Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!spool.mu.edu!sgiblab!sgigate!odin!slugo.corp.sgi.com!rodb
From: [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith)
Subject: Re: Strange facts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Net News)
Nntp-Posting-Host: slugo.corp.sgi.com
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1992 02:40:54 GMT
Lines: 18

Tom,

AMEN! Get with it people. THIS IS alt.alien.visitors, not
alt.ask.any.bizzare.question.you.might.think.of . Please
try & stick with the program a little closer.

Nuff said,

Rod
--
Rod Beckwith     |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Datacom I/S      |"The great obstacle of progress is not ignorance,
[e-mail]|but the illusion of knowledge."
                 |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$




Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13058 alt.alien.visitors:11538 sci.skeptic:35157
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!sdd.hp.com!wupost!uunet!stanford.edu!apple!netcomsv!netcom.com!sheaffer
From: [e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: The Extraterrestial Within.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 2 Dec 92 00:25:55 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Lines: 19

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Subject: Have You Got An Extraterrestial In You?

Hey, John, they already did a movie about that one. Didn't you see "ALIENS"?
The guy has this extraterrestrial in him, and it comes burrowing out.
Gorey as all Hell!


--

        Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - [e-mail]

 Past Chairman, The Bay Area Skeptics - for whom I speak only when authorized!

       "Beware when the great God lets loose a thinker on this planet.
        Then all things are at risk. It is as when a conflagration has
        broken out in a great city, and no man knows what is safe, or
        where it will end."
                               - Emerson: Essay, "Circles"
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!spool.mu.edu!sgiblab!sgigate!odin!slugo.corp.sgi.com!rodb
From: [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith)
Subject: MUFON Current case Log
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: Lets get back to basics
Sender: [e-mail] (Net News)
Nntp-Posting-Host: slugo.corp.sgi.com
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1992 04:02:05 GMT
Lines: 52

Hello all,

I just got off the phone with Walt Andrus , the International Director of
MUFON.
I asked him if I could present excerpts from the monthly MUFON journal,he
said yes as long as I report the source of the information. I hope this
will help in getting this newsgroup back on track! All articles will be
complete and verbatom.

Here is a current case log entry written by Robert J. Gribble, Western
Regional Director.

-Log #922404W: About 9:30 p.m. on April 24, 1992, a retired geophysicist
and his three grown sons observed dozens of maneuvering lights, while
camping out at the Fish Springs Wildlife Refuge south of Dugway Proving
Grounds, a secret government installation in western Utah; investigator
Mildred Biesele. At first they appeared in the southern sky moving
westward, but soon they were seen in all parts of the sky, as many as 10 or
12 at a time, some singly, some in sets of two or three in vertical,
horizontal or triangular formations. Star-like in size and brightness, some
were red, some white. one set of these lights moved behind a peak on the
horizon in a vertical line and emerged on the other side as a triangle. The
aerial display lasted for nearly two hours. END-----------------

I will publish this information from time to time as a sanity check & as
time permits. The MUFON journal is a bit dry at times, but it is no
TABLOID. The reporting is usually objective & informative.

For more information about MUFON, write or call:

ADDRESS-------

MUFON UFO Journal
103 Oldtowne Rd.
Seguin, TX 78155-4099

PHONE #-------

[phone]

Rod


--
Rod Beckwith     |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Datacom I/S      |"The great obstacle of progress is not ignorance,
[e-mail]|but the illusion of knowledge."
                 |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$




Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbnewsk!cbnewsj!att-out!rutgers!igor.rutgers.edu!dropout.rutgers.edu!mcgrew
From: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Howe's An Alien Harvest
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 2 Dec 92 04:18:05 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
Lines: 14


    [e-mail] (Andy Kurtz) writes:
    BTW: Does anyone know if the UFO Newsclipping Service and/or
    the journal Stigmata are still around.  If so, could someone
    pass along their addresses.

UFO Newsclipping Service
Route 1 - Box 220
Plumerville, Arkansas 72127

(Don't know about costs, but write to them and they'll send you
prices and sample pages.)

Charles
Xref: icaen sci.skeptic:35166 sci.astro:23654 sci.space:38255 alt.alien.visitors:11541
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,sci.astro,sci.space,alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!sun-barr!ames!kronos.arc.nasa.gov!iscnvx!butch!netcomsv!netcom.com!sheaffer
From: [e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer)
Subject: STS-48 and "SDI": Oberg vs. Hoagland
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1992 06:12:12 GMT
Lines: 271

I am posting the following file that I received from James Oberg, a
well-known writer on the space program. He is discussing the same
videotaped footage from NASA's STS-48 mission that has been endlessly
showen as a supposed "UFO." Richard Hoagland, a major promoter of the
"Face On Mars," claims that NASA cameras accidentally caught a secret
"star wars test". Here is Oberg's rebuttal.


        James Oberg, Rt 2 Box 350, Dickinson, TX 77539
        Re: Did STS-48 view a "Star Wars" test?


        The  STS-48 mission was the 43rd shuttle launch, the 13th  flight
        of OV-103 Discovery, with the Upper Atmosphere Research Satellite
        (UARS).  The crew was John Creighton, Ken Reightler, Jim  Buchli,
        Mark  Brown,  and Sam Gemar. It was launched from KSC  Pad  A  at
        2311GMT Sep 12, 1991 (twilight),landed at EAFB on Sep 18, 0738GMT
        (night), duration 5d08h27m. The orbit was inclined 57 degrees  to
        the  equator at an altitude of about 570 km, second only  to  the
        616  km altitude of the Hubble deploy mission a year and  a  half
        earlier.  Due  to  radar  experiments  with  the  deployed   UARS
        satellite,  I  was present in the control room for  two  planning
        shifts  (my  job  was as "Guidance and  Procedures  Officer"  for
        actions  related  to  orbital rendezvous,  such  as  the  planned
        checkout  of the radar which had shown performance  anomalies  on
        several earlier missions).

        I  have reviewed the videotape by Richard Hoagland alleging  that
        the  notorious STS-48 videotape shows a "Star Wars" weapons  test
        against  a  target  drone  with  astounding  propulsion.  In   my
        judgment,  the facts, analysis, and conclusions presented by  Mr.
        Hoagland are entirely wrong.

        Is  the object really very far away? Hoagland's argument  depends
        on proving that the object is at or beyond the physical  horizon,
        "1713  miles away". Proving this depends on optical  analysis  of
        the  image  and  of its motion. All  of  Hoagland's  analysis  is
        invalid.

        First,  Hoagland  alleges  that the videotape  shows  the  object
        suddenly appearing at the edge of the Earth, as if it had  popped
        up  from behind the horizon. But a more cautious viewing  of  the
        tape shows this is not accurate.

        The  object does NOT rise from "behind the horizon".  It  appears
        (arguably,  it  becomes  sunlit) at a point  below  the  physical
        horizon,  just slightly below, to be sure, but  measurably  below
        the edge of the Earth (the "limb").

        It  has  been  suggested  (Dipietro)  that  the  object's  sudden
        appearance  is  due to sunrise. This is plausible.  I  suggest  a
        variation  on this, that the object became visible when it  moved
        up  out  of the shuttle's shadow just after  sunrise.  Since  the
        video  was taken near sunrise, the shuttle's shadow was  pointing
        back nearly parallel to Earth's horizon, and the ground was still
        dark  (bright  ground reflection later lights up debris  even  if
        they are in the shuttle's sun shadow). This would require that it
        be close to the shuttle. The proximity to the horizon line  would
        be coincidental.

        Note  that the bright light in upper left is some sort of  camera
        anomaly  and  is not an electronic horizon marker as  alleged  by
        Hoagland. There is no such thing as an electronic horizon marker.
        Is  the  object  behind  the  atmosphere?  Hoagland  argues  that
        analysis of the imagery shows the object is physically behind the
        atmosphere.   But  I  disagree.  It  is  NOT  seen  through   the
        atmosphere:

        First,  consider  the brightening effect.  Computer  analysis  is
        shown  which  alleges that the brightening of  the  object  while
        below the airglow layer is analogous to the brightening of  stars
        setting behind the airglow layer. This allegedly implies that the
        object, like the stars, is behind the airglow layer.

        This argumentation is false because it posits the wrong causation
        mechanism   for  brightening  ("passage  of  the  light   through
        atmosphere").  This  should  be  obvious  since  at  the  airglow
        altitude  (40-60 miles) the atmosphere is already extremely  thin
        and the lapse rate (the drop in pressure per rise in altitude) is
        already much reduced over the value at lower altitudes (that  is,
        crossing the "airglow boundary" does NOT significantly change the
        atmospheric density the light ray is passing through). If density
        WERE  the  true cause of brightening, the effect  would  markedly
        peak  at a lower altitude (as soon as the beam rose  above  total
        obscuration),  then drop rapidly as atmospheric density  dropped,
        and  show NO NOTICEABLE CHANGE in dimunition rate as  it  crossed
        the  airglow layer because the density of traversed air  wouldn't
        change much either at that region.

        The  actual  connection  for  the  object's  brightening  is  the
        absolute  brightness of the airglow layer in the background.  The
        object  is brighter when it is against a bright background,  just
        as  stars  are  brighter. This is not an effect of  a  light  ray
        transiting  the  airglow region and somehow  being  strengthened.
        Instead,  I believe it is an effect on the camera optics  of  the
        summing,  pixel by pixel, of all brightness within the  field  of
        view.  A bright object with a dark background will not  throw  as
        many  photons on the individual pixels of the camera as  would  a
        bright object with a half-bright background. The camera's vidicon
        system will respond to light in the background by brightening the
        small point-source objects observed in that region, either  lying
        behind or crossing in front of that background. Repeat:  crossing
        in front of that airglow.

        This is confirmed by other checks. Observers can note that  other
        drifting  point-source objects, clearly starting well  below  the
        horizon line, also brighten as they traverse the airglow region.
        NOTE:  Hoagland's  argument that the dimming beyond  the  airglow
        disproves NASA's contention that the object is nearby and sunlit,
        since  as it gradually rose "higher into the sunlight" it  should
        brighten,  not dim, is false. Once in full sunlight,  no  further
        brightening  occurs. Sunrise only lasts as long as it  takes  for
        the  sun  (0.5 degrees wide) to rise above the  horizon,  at  the
        orbital  angular  rate  of 4 degrees per  minute  (that  is,  360
        degrees  in a 90-minute orbit), which comes to just 7-8  seconds,
        which anybody should have been able to figure out. Of course this
        is  different  from  ground rates, which depends  for  the  sun's
        angular motion on earth's rotation rate (4 minutes per degree, 16
        times slower than spaceship orbital rate). This argument  reveals
        Hoagland's unfamiliarity with basic orbital flight conditions and
        implications.

        Notice  that no mention is made by Hoagland of the clear  absence
        of expected refractive effects of being behind the atmosphere. As
        is  known  by  anybody who's watched  sunset/moonset  at  a  flat
        horizon,  the  atmosphere creates significant distortion  in  the
        bottom .2-.4 degrees of the image. The lowest layers  demonstrate
        a  vertical compression of 2:1 or greater. This is also shown  on
        pictures  of  "moonset"  from orbit. If the  STS-48  object  were
        really  travelling nearly parallel to the horizon  but  somewhere
        behind  the  atmosphere, this would be visible by  analyzing  its
        flight path. As it rose its line of travel would markedly  change
        as  atmospheric  refractive effects disappeared.  This  does  not
        happen, which strongly suggests that the object is NOT behind the
        atmosphere.

        Since  the arguments for great range to the object all fail,  the
        conclusions based on angular motion converted to physical  motion
        also fail.

        What  is  the "flare" in the camera that precedes the  change  in
        motion of all the objects? I believe the flare in the lower  left
        camera   FOV  is  an  RCS  jet  firing,  not  per   Hoagland   an
        electromagnetic pulse effect. There are several reasons: it  does
        not  look like any known electromagnetic video  interference;  it
        looks  just  like previously seen RCS flares;  and  the  Hoagland
        counterargument  about an alleged need for pointing  changing  is
        not valid.

        First, while it is true that EMI can affect electrical equipment,
        such pulses would not lie in any localized region of a television
        screen but would blitz the whole image. Anybody whose TV has ever
        been blitzed by lightning knows that the effect does not  confine
        itself  to  the  corner nearest the  lightning.  Also,  far  more
        sensitive  electronic  equipment aboard  the  shuttle,  including
        computers  which  were counting the pulses of  individual  cosmic
        rays  striking  their circuits, were not affected  by  the  event
        (otherwise,  the entire television transmission would  have  been
        knocked   out).   So  Hoagland's  explanation  is   magical   and
        unrealistic.

        Second,  the optical appearance of RCS jet firings is well  known
        and  familiar to experienced observers, and they look  just  like
        the flash in question. These have been observed and videotaped on
        every shuttle mission, from the crew cabin, from payload bay  and
        RMS  cameras, and from cameras on nearby free-flying  satellites,
        and from ground optical tracking cameras as well.

        Third, Hoagland's argument that the line of travel of stars  down
        to the horizon should have been kinked by the jet firing is plain
        ignorant.  During  attitude  hold  coast  periods,  the   shuttle
        autopilot  maintains  a  "deadband" of  several  degrees,  slowly
        drifting  back  and  forth and, when  the  attitude  exceeds  the
        deadband  limit,  a  jet is pulsed to  nudge  (NOT  "shove")  the
        spaceship  back  toward the center of the deadband.  The  angular
        rates induced by these 80-msec pulses are as follows:

             ROLL               .07 deg/sec
             PITCH              .10 deg/sec
             YAW                .05 deg/sec

        Note  that the star motion would have changed direction  ONLY  IF
        the orbiter's pointing attitude was shifted to the right or left.
        If  shifted up or down, only a slight change in star motion  rate
        would occur (this appears to be the way the jet plume is actually
        directed)  but  so  would horizon motion, so  it  would  have  to
        measured  as absolute screen position. If shifted in or  out,  no
        change  at  all would be observable. This is all  based  on  pure
        geometric considerations overlooked by Hoagland.

        After ten seconds, even in the worst case (pitch motion  inducing
        pure  crossways angular motion), the star track would  only  have
        diverged  a single degree from the former straight line. This  is
        visually undetectable on the images shown by Hoagland.

        So the fact that he sees no change in the star motion tracks does
        not disprove that the pulse was an RCS jet.

        Video  Encryption:  Hoagland  alleges  that  since  STS-48,   all
        external  STS  video has been encrypted and will be  viewed  only
        after NASA review and approval. I have checked with a NASA Public
        Affairs  official, and have personally verified, that things  (as
        usual)  are not quite what Richard Hoagland alleges.  On  STS-42,
        the  second  flight  after STS-48 (the STS-44  DoD  mission  went
        between   them),   the  International   Microgravity   Laboratory
        (Spacelab)  science  group requested that medical  video  imagery
        from  the cardiological studies (sonogram images) be  treated  as
        privileged   medical   information,   as   all   previous   audio
        conversations with doctors had been. NASA discovered that  having
        to  continuously reconfigure the White Sands TDRSS site  and  the
        TDRSS satellites back and forth for encrypted video  transmission
        was  a laborous process. Rather than spend all that time, it  was
        decided  to go into encrypted mode continuously and  decrypt  the
        raw  video at NASA Goddard for immediate release over  the  "NASA
        Select"  circuit.  Normally, when there was  shuttle  video,  the
        White  Sands to Goddard raw video link had been unencrypted,  and
        the   Goddard  relay  to  "NASA  Select"  required   no   further
        processing;  but  when  medically-privileged  video  was  to   be
        transmitted  (a  new innovation on STS-42,  planned  for  years),
        complex encryption processes had to be initiated on the  shuttle,
        on  the  TDRS  satellites, at White Sands, and  at  Goddard.  The
        procedure  for constant encryption was implemented to  avoid  the
        cost of many switchovers between modes. But the NASA Select video
        from  Goddard  was  to continue to be decrypted  except  for  the
        medical  transmissions, which were to be openly announced on  the
        audio  feed,  just  not piped into a million  homes  and  schools
        nationwide.  Since  then, the NASA Select video  (originating  at
        NASA  Goddard,  and containing other sources of video,  too)  has
        continued to be transmitted as before, with the only change  that
        the  White Sands to Goddard link (which viewers could  previously
        observe  when it was active) is now encrypted. There is  no  hint
        from air-to-ground conversations that anything other than the new
        (and long scheduled) medical video imagery is being  interrupted.
        And  although  it is encrypted, the White Sands raw feed  can  be
        observed  to tell if there is a video signal or not on the  feed,
        so I am told.

        Conclusion:  The standing explanation, that the objects are  near
        the  shuttle, are sunlit, and are affected by the plume field  of
        an RCS jet firing, remains valid.

        P.S. Hoagland made a number of other factually erroneous comments
        about  live  planetary  image transmissions.  He  says  that  all
        previously  NASA  planetary  probes  transmitted  live   imagery.
        Actually,  only fly-by probes did that, particularly  the  fly-by
        probes which had slow transmission rates which took many  minutes
        to build up each image. Probes orbiting other planets (Venus  and
        Mars,   for  example),  do  not  (and  I  believe,  never   HAVE)
        transmitted  live imagery, since they are frequently occulted  by
        the planet's mass. Each orbit's imagery is stored and dumped over
        a short portion of each orbit, and the imagery data is  initially
        decoded over the next hours and days. Live coverage of the actual
        image transmission would usually be blank, but for a few  minutes
        every few hours would show images flipping across the screen at a
        very fast rate, if there was enough computer power to decode them
        in  this  "real  time" speed. There is no  practical  reason  why
        computers have to be built so powerful to keep up with the  high-
        speed  dump rate for a few minutes, then rest idle for  the  next
        several  hours.  Outside  of avoiding  whines  about  censorship,
        there's no reason to do so.
--

        Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - [e-mail]

 Past Chairman, The Bay Area Skeptics - for whom I speak only when authorized!


     "Mystical explanations are considered deep. The truth is that
      they are not even superficial."

                   - Friedrich Nietzsche    (The Gay Science: 126)
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13060 alt.alien.visitors:11542 sci.skeptic:35167 alt.religion.kibology:4959
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.religion.kibology
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!sdd.hp.com!usc!wupost!uunet!enterpoop.mit.edu!eff!world!kibo
From: [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry)
Subject: Re: The Extraterrestial Within.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Two rooms filled with typography, in downtown Boston
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1992 07:56:40 GMT
Lines: 19

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] () writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>> ....(lots of junk deleted)...
>>John Winston.
>
>Yo, is John_-_Winston (aka "Bibo", aka "Somef kindaf nutf casef")
>the "ANTI-KIBO"? I assume that if Kibo is renowned for his wit,
>then the "anti-kibo" would be equally renowned for witlessness.

Hey!  I didn't MEAN to be witty!

Personally, I think John_"Bibo"_Winston deserves the award he was voted at
the alt.religion.kibology ceremony last week: "Best New ibo".  (He beat
Scott "~ibo" Ramming, who was disqualified for being not an ibo.)

John, where can I mail your award certificate and prize?

                            -- K.

Xref: icaen alt.conspiracy:20332 alt.alien.visitors:11543
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!darwin.sura.net!spool.mu.edu!olivea!uunet!pipex!warwick!str-ccsun!dct.ac.uk!ccdarg
From: [e-mail] (Alan Greig)
Newsgroups: dit.talk,alt.conspiracy,alt.alien.visitors,uk.misc
Subject: Wembley, AIDS, and the Illuminati
Keywords: AIDS, COOPER
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 2 Dec 92 09:37:56 GMT
Organization: Dundee Institute of Technology
Lines: 18

I spotted a poster in Dundee University last night advertising
an event to take place on Jan 10/11 at the Wembley Arena, London
on the subject of "Proof that AIDS is a man-made disease" and,
for good measure, "The truth about the small elite band controlling
the world" From a glance at the list of speakers the one name that
jumped out at me was Milton William Cooper. Oh dear...

Anyone know anything more about this? The promoter is Keith Prowse,
one of the biggest UK promoters, and Wembley Arena is a prestige
venue so someone must be well connected. Ticket prices started at
about 20 pounds (35 dollars) which should rake in a nice profit for
someone.

--
Alan Greig                            Janet: [e-mail]-TECH
Dundee Institute of Technology       Internet: [e-mail]
Tel: [phone]                 Int: [phone]
              -- There is only one true conspiracy --
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Vallee
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 2 Dec 92 03:15:01 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - <ParaNet(sm) , Arvada CO
Lines: 30


 > From: [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)
 > Date: 28 Nov 92 23:14:00 GMT
 > Organization: Home Base BBS - St. Thomas, Ontario - 519-633-7253
 > Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors

 >   Well, I think it's a well established fact that the intelligence
 >   community keeps close tabs on all UFO groups.

Yes, I agree that they are probably watching, and even watching this conference.  But, that doesn't seem threatening to me.  They watch a lot of things for intelligence purposes, and even major publications.

 >   Seems to me that in his last book he thought UFOs where a phsycic
 >   phenomenon.

He believes that they may have a psychic component.

 >   You're are right, there seems to be a lot of "freaks and weirdos" in
 >   the field, but are they "real" or are they intelligence agents
 >   spreading dis-information and making the entire study of UFOs a
 >   laughing matter, a stance the US has taken since the '50s?

That is a complex question.  My feeling is that there are a lot of different things going on within and under the guise of the UFO phenomenon.  First, you have those who are just plain nuts.  They actually make up a fairly small percentage.  Then you have those who have nothing better to do with their time than to sit in an armchair and play UFOlogist (actually this makes up a large percentage of those that create the problem), then you have the intelligence groups who use this for a purposeful agenda - on


e in which to hide themselves and their actions, and then you have the scam artists who have found a way to exploit scientifically ignorant people with a magic show while emptying their wallets.  My opinion is that we don't need the government to disinform us.  We do that sufficiently well ourselves.  Until people begin to act and talk responsibly about what is going on, nothing will ever straighten out. However, as long as we have Bill Cooper and others like him, the government can take a long vacation.


:-)

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Ufo March On Washington
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 2 Dec 92 03:16:02 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - <ParaNet(sm) , Arvada CO
Lines: 22


 > From: [e-mail] (Tim Donnelly)
 > Date: 29 Nov 92 03:44:00 GMT
 > Organization: VideOcart Inc.
 > Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors


 > I know this is not a very constructive attitude.  But it does say one
 > thing:
 > we really need to explore completely different routes to find the truth.

Amen!

So, what do you propose should be done?

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!darwin.sura.net!Sirius.dfn.de!chx400!sparc2!news
From: [e-mail] (Paul Milsom)
Subject: Re: Strange facts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Mr. Usenet)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Paul Milsom)
Organization: Neu-Technikum Buchs
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1992 10:58:06 GMT
Lines: 34




Some people don't seem to like the Strange Facts kind of topic, which I can
understand. ("Get with it people. THIS IS alt.alien.visitors.")
However, I think that Kumaran had the right idea - if he had heard a story
which seemed to be *explainable only through ETs*.

  M. Marsh (through Tim D.) says about this group:

    > If people could manage to take some things a little more seriously
    > first, before flaming them, more questions might get answered.  There
    > is a lot of collective knowledge out there.

I think *flaming* an individual for an assertion or asking a bona fide
question is unfair. If someone asks the group if it is true that we couldn't
build pyramids today, then ETs are (for the person asking) indirectly
involved. Isn't one of the functions of this group to answer such questions?

    >..a simple, sketchy description..unfolded into a true, detailed fact.

What I think we should discourage is the assertive style of posting
    ("The person or persons who created this first map had to have done it
    from a great height (that of a satelite).." )
It's always best to be cautious with second-hand assertations in this group
(not just because of flamers), but because we, as individuals, normally hear
only one side of the story. Even John normally adds some sort of "What do you
think of that, folks?" at the end of his postings!
            Let's try to be friendly with each other, like ETs.   Paul.



Paul Milsom
[e-mail]
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!pipex!warwick!str-ccsun!dct.ac.uk!mcsdc1al
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ^^^DUNDEE UFO^^^^
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 2 Dec 92 12:04:40 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Dundee Institute of Technology
Lines: 43

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
> In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
>> In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
>>> Think I saw a UFO over Dundee on Monday evening at 4.40pm over the Tay.
>>>
>>> It started with a bright pinpoint of light over the Tay.  I was sitting staring
>>> out of the window and noticed it and thought it was just a bright star (it was
>>> almost completely dark outside).  Then it started to move from it's stationary
>>> position with increasing speed towards the city centre  along the Tay.  I then
>>> thought it was a plane because they come over quite often towards Dundee
>>> Airport, but I was confused about how it had been standing still, like a star.
>>> Then it made a wide turn and swept back far closer to my position and I was
>>> able to see that the object was quite flat and didn't seem to have wings or
>>> tail.  All the time it had a single white light shining, similar to craft I
>>> have seen before.
>>>
>>> Did anyone else in Dundee/area see this object?
>>>
>>>
>
>
> No I didn't see this one but I do very often see the same thing on my way home
> across the bridge.  It always turns out to be a plane of some sort.  The reason
> it appears to hang in the air quite still is that is coming straight towards
> you at a relitivly slow speed.  Planes at dundee aitport are small affiars
> (single engine prop planes mostley).  Because DCT (I assume thats where you
> where) is quite high up in relation to the airport, you probably saw the
> plane side on at that point when i turned.
>
> Either that or it was someone from the esoteric society giving a display
> of Astral Projection, (what night did you say it was ) :-)
>
> Andy C
> .

It was a fortnight ago on Monday.  I was at Mayfield, which is high enough to
be side on like you say.
    I thought it was a plane because they do fly down the Tay regularly.  I
think this has been pretty inconclusive of anything hasn't it?



>
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13061 alt.alien.visitors:11548 sci.skeptic:35169
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Kibo
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed,  2 Dec 92 06:28:51 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 5

Dear Folks: He that sineth against me shall be forgiven but he that
that taketh the name of the Great Kibo in vain shall not be forgiven
either in this world or the world to come.
Source of information: Kibology 21 verse 2.
John Winston.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Contact Notes
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 2 Dec 92 04:49:01 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - <ParaNet(sm) , Arvada CO
Lines: 47


 > From: [e-mail] (Jeff)
 > Date: 29 Nov 92 20:39:33 GMT
 > Organization: BeHereNow
 > Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors


 > Athough I do respect Mike and the work he does, even if he doesn't alway
 > return my email;-)...

Sorry.  Have been extremely busy with work and have not had much time but sleep and work.  Will get to it soon. :-)

 > Vallee to me, is not to be trusted. I feel it is highly likely that he
 > is an intelligence operative, and that is why his "research" conclusions
 > can be highly contradictory and confusing. When I read his books, I get
 > the impression of a highly logical person that understands compters,
 > with
 > an axe to grind (to persuade and confuse us), who is very narrow minded
 > in
 > his views of the makeup of reality and the possiblilies that "reality"
 > would
 > encompass.

I would appreciate it if you could elaborate on this point.  Why does this constitute an "intelligence operative"?

 > If you want a believable author, read Goode, Lindemann, Stevens, or
 > Howe.
 > These people impress me as much more open, human, and unconstrained by
 > a "logic" that is entirely anthropromorphic in nature.

I disagree that these people are more firmly planted than Vallee.  For example, it seems that each of the persons you have listed have a philosophical attitude about the ETH.  What I mean by that is that they have the answers as to who "they" are, and what "they" want here with us.  This is too premature.  There is absolutely no evidence to support this.  While Vallee does stretch some things to a fine layer, I feel that his theories are based more on solid research and observation.  His main thrust is not



 to trust too much in what you are ready to believe until a full verdict is in.

 > And, if Cooper is correct, and Project Grudge Report #13 was written by
 > Hynek,
 > then Vallee's early carrer ties with Hynek place his credibilty as
 > highly
 > suspect.

Cooper correct?  Not a snowball's chance in hell.  Anyone that could believe for one minute that Hynek wrote Grudge 13 is seriously in the ozone.  As far as I know, I don't even think that Grude 13 has been proven to exist (someone correct me if I'm wrong about this).  Besides, the Grudge reports were nothing more than a compilation of case reviews based upon evidence and investigation by a team of people.  Hynek was nothing more than a consultant to the project.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Strange Facts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 2 Dec 92 04:50:02 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - <ParaNet(sm) , Arvada CO
Lines: 15


 > From: [e-mail] (Kumaran Santhanam)
 > Date: 29 Nov 92 20:56:08 GMT
 > Organization: University of California, Berkeley
 > Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors

The map that you refer to is the Piri Reis map.  I don't have any specifics on it at the moment, but I will dig it up and post something about it.  Keyhoe makes mention of it in one of his books.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Xref: icaen alt.conspiracy:20337 alt.alien.visitors:11551
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!uunet!pipex!warwick!str-ccsun!dct.ac.uk!buxduac
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: dit.talk,alt.conspiracy,alt.alien.visitors,uk.misc
Subject: Re: Wembley, AIDS, and the Illuminati
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 2 Dec 92 14:44:40 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Distribution: world
Organization: Dundee Institute of Technology
Lines: 23

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Alan Greig)
writees>
> I spotted a poster in Dundee University last night advertising
> an event to take place on Jan 10/11 at the Wembley Arena, London
> on the subject of "Proof that AIDS is a man-made disease" and,
> for good measure, "The truth about the small elite band controlling
> the world" From a glance at the list of speakers the one name that
> jumped out at me was Milton William Cooper. Oh dear...
>
> Anyone know anything more about this? The promoter is Keith Prowse,
> one of the biggest UK promoters, and Wembley Arena is a prestige
> venue so someone must be well connected. Ticket prices started at
> about 20 pounds (35 dollars) which should rake in a nice profit for
> someone.
>
> --
> Alan Greig

I saw this to Alan, thought you might be interested, Any idea who put
the poster up in the first place ??

Andy C

Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:11552 sci.skeptic:35174
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!cleveland.Freenet.Edu!cc203
From: [e-mail] (David R. Stepien)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Question for John Winston
Date: 2 Dec 1992 16:36:47 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (David R. Stepien)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


To John Winston:

Please post an answer to this question:

After skimming through your posts for a while now I have come to the
conclusion that you believe firmly in the existence of psychic energies,
and the ability of these energies to affect us in a very real way.
My question is:

What is the psychic/spiritual effect upon a person who manages to foster
significant hostility towards himself amongst a large group of people?

In more detail - if a large number of people are regularly creating
thoughtforms of anger, malevolence, frustration, etc. about a particular
person, won't the targeted person suffer some sort of ill effects?

Gurdjieff, who is well known for his spiritual insights, told a story in
"Beelzebub's Tales to his Grandson" about a man who took a job ringing the
early morning bell at his local church.  Soon after he began his job, his
health began to suffer, and became progressively worse.  It turned out that
the reason for this was that as he disturbed the townspeople's sleep each
morning, they would invariably curse him for it.  These negative psychic
energies were the cause of his decline in health.

Sound familiar?  Please post your response.

David
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13063 alt.alien.visitors:11553 sci.skeptic:35175
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!munnari.oz.au!jabaru.cec.edu.au!csource!alfa
From: [e-mail] (glenn durden)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Pyramids
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 92 17:07:03 +1100
References: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Unique Computing Pty Ltd, Melbourne, Australia
Lines: 35

[e-mail] writes:

> In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail]
>    (kevin fisher U) writes:
>
> Edgar Casey says that they understood and used anti-gravity.  Speaking of
> which, did anyone else see the Australian produced program "Beyond 2000" on
> the Discovery Channel that showed an electical-magnetic anti-gravity field
> and that it's first commercial use would be in shock absorbers for cars?
>
> Have fun!
>
>    =-Kathy->                                   [e-mail]

Anti-gravity isnt needed to build the pyramids.
Since all they are is lots of rocks, cut and shaped and manhandled into place,
all you need is lots of money, lots of slaves, lots of nearby rocks a short
raft-ride down the nile, and 20 years to build it.
 The Pharoes had all this.

Occasionally you may read or see on TV about a few people who get together and
try to simulate building the pyramids.    They usually find that they cant get
the same results, so people like you interpret that to meaning it cant be done
with purely physical manpower.
The real truth is that those simulations, the Egyptians had the entire backing
of the entire economy and the backing of the entire 'government' of the day.

Big as it is, its just a bunch of rocks on top of each other.   Same as the
Aztec ones, same as the chinese ones.
No aliens from outer space are needed.

.........................................................
glenn durden
[e-mail]  Unique Computing Pty Ltd, Melbourne, Australia
The opinions expressed above are that of the author only.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!news.ysu.edu!psuvm!cunyvm!botgc
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center
Date: Wednesday, 2 Dec 1992 07:14:57 EST
From: <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject:       Newsletter
Lines: 11

Thanks to all who have replied  to my posting of 10/29/92 about the newsletter.
The name of the newsletter is The Nefilim Forum, indeed, its subscribers do
participate in the discussions. I keep the discussion flowing, introduce new
topics for discussion, etc. The purpose of the newsletter os two-fold:
educate the subscribers by having them exposed to new info about extraterrest-
rials in ancient and modern times, and to have by collective effort gain some
more insight into what happened and is happening in regards to the influence
of extraterrestrials on the human societies throught the ages.

Regards,
Vladislav Botvinnik
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!cleveland.Freenet.Edu!cc203
From: [e-mail] (David R. Stepien)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: The Vimanas
Date: 2 Dec 1992 17:00:27 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
Lines: 50
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (David R. Stepien)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


> [e-mail] (Kumaran Santhanam) writes:
> : In the Hindu religion, the devas (or heaven-dwellers) have very marvelous and
> : powerful devices capable of doing much more than mortal man's tools.  One suc
> : device was the Pushpaka Vimana (Flower Vehicle).  This chariot was such that
> : it required no horses and could fly at very high speeds.  Now, flying devices
> : are commonplace in many religions, but here comes the interesting part.  All
> : of the specific descriptions and effects of this vehicle paint a rather
> : complete picture of what this vehicle was really like.  Scientists and scholars
> : who studied the Ramayana and other Sanskrit scriptures came to the conclusion
> : that this vehicle was powered by advanced mercury ion propulsion and that all
> : of the descriptions given in the Hindu scriptures match the parameters of suc
> : a device.  I thought that was quite an interesting tidbit.  If anyone has any
> : more specific information on it, please post.  I myself do not know Sanskrit
> : and if anybody who does has read the ancient documentation and has seen these
> : descriptions of the Pushpaka Vimana, please speak up.
> : *****************************************************************************
>
> I have been studying this area a bit, and have obtained two books on the
> subject. Apparently some years back, some westerners came across some ancient
> texts from a South Indian Temple. They found several volumes.  One was on how
> to make Vimanhas (There are several types) and another on How to Fly one!
>
> One of the major problems with the the texts was the fact that many of the key
> words listed in the texts simply had no meaning to the translators. They were
> refering to objects/materials that nobody could decipher (The texts are in an
> old form of Sanskit).
>
> If there is any interest, I can get some more info from these books.

If you are ineterested in the Vimanas, I suggest you check out a little
book called "Mercury: UFO Messenger of the Gods" by W. D. Clendenon.  I
heard Mr. Clendenon lecture in Cleveland a few months ago.  He claims
to have personally witnessed at close range several of the Adamski type
craft.  He has also researched the Vimanas, and has attempted to
reverse engineer a flying saucer design based on the Sanskrit texts,
his own sightings and Adamski's photos.  He actually built some
prototypes.

The amazing thing about this guy is that from the way he speaks it is
almost impossible to believe that he is making anything up.  He is very
down to earth, and while Adamski has gotten a lot of Flack it makes one
think twice before dismissing him.  Of course it may be possible that
Clenendon just inhaled a bit too much Mercury while working on his
models. ;-)

The book may be ordered from Adventure Survival Productions, P.O. Box
756, Biloxi Mississippi, 39533.

David
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!enterpoop.mit.edu!bloom-picayune.mit.edu!aurora!mt
From: [e-mail] (Mary Terhune)
Subject: Re:Finding a Guru
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Originator: mt@aurora
Sender: [e-mail] (News system)
Nntp-Posting-Host: aurora.mit.edu
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: MIT Center for Space Research
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1992 17:19:36 GMT
Lines: 14

Re: Finding a Guru

Someone asked about finding a Guru.
I have found such a realized Guru, Her name
is Gurumayi also known as Chidvilasananda.
She is the successor to Baba Muktananda and
the Siddha Yoga Lineage. She resides at
her Ashram in South Fallsburg, NY 914-434-2000.
I have known her for 6 years and you can know
her greatness just by being in her Presence.

Best,
Mary

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!darwin.sura.net!wupost!uunet!mnemosyne.cs.du.edu!nyx!rwirthli
From: [e-mail] (Ralph Wirthlin)
Subject: Re: MUFON Current case Log
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: Lets get back to basics
Sender: [e-mail] (netnews admin account)
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 92 17:07:38 GMT
Lines: 3


Dugway Proving Grounds is hardly a "secret government installation".

Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!uunet.ca!hombas!joseph.daniels
From: [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: MJ-12
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Dec 92 05:30:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Home Base BBS - St. Thomas, Ontario - 519-633-7253
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)
Lines: 144

To: [e-mail] (Author)
From: [e-mail]

AU|Is there anybody out there who could come up with additional information
  |relating to MJ-12 and the current state of affairs. In this context I
  |would want to make a call to anyone who was involved in or still is, in
  |activities relating to MJ-12 or subsequent organizations.
  `--------------------------------------------------------------------

  Good luck Peter. All the original MJ-12 members are dead. They are
  also called the "Jason" Society and their logo is a small pin of a
  dolphin. The secret "code name" to watch for in government documents
  is "MAJIC". Here is some stuff that I have:
  --------------------------------------------------------------------

                   THE TOP SECRET MJ-12 GROUP

The 12 members of the Top Secret Majestic-12 Group were:

1) Vice-Admiral Roscoe H. Hillenkoetter
     The  first  director of the CIA, which  was  established  in
     1947.   He  was  also  on  the  board  of  NICAP   (National
     Investigation  Committee  on Aerial  Phenomena),  which  has
     suffered considerable CIA infiltration throughout it's life.
     Hillenkoetter  apparently  stated  that:  "Through  official
     secrecy  and ridicule, many citizens are led to believe  the
     UFOs are nonsense."

2) Dr. Vannevar Bush
     Head of the Joint Research and Development Board after WWII.
     Before  that he had a leading post in the  National  Defense
     Research  Council and the Office of Scientific Research  and
     Development. This last organization was responsible for  the
     development of the Manhattan Project, developing the  atomic
     bomb  at  a location near to many  alleged  crash  retrieval
     sites.

3) Secretary James V. Forrestal
     Before  becoming  Secretary of Defense in 1947 he  had  been
     Secretary of the Navy. In 1947 he had a mental breakdown and
     apparently committed suicide at the Bethesda Naval  Hospital
     and was replaced by General Walter B. Smith on the Majestic-
     12 Committee.

4) General Nathan A. Twining
     A  prominent WWII commander in both the European  &  Pacific
     Areas.  In 1947 he was appointed Commanding General  of  Air
     Materiel  Command at Wright Patterson Air Force Base.  In  a
     memorandum  to  the  Pentagon  he  states:  "The  phenomenon
     reported is something real and not visionary or fictitious."

5) General Hoyt S. Vandenberg
     Director  of  Central Intelligence. In August 1948  the  Air
     Technical  Intelligence Center produced an "ESTIMATE OF  THE
     SITUATION"    which   suggested   that   UFOs    might    be
     interplanetary.  Vandenberg, who was Chief of Staff for  the
     Air Force at the time, decided that this could cause a panic
     so he ordered the document destroyed.

6) Doctor Detlev W. Bronk
     Chairman  of the National Research Council and  an  advisory
     member of the Atomic Energy Commission. Also a member of the
     Scientific  Advisory Committee of the Brook  Haven  National
     Laboratory.

7) Doctor Jerome C. Hunsaker
     Head  of  the  Department  of  Mechanical  and  Aeronautical
     Engineering  at  Massachusetts Institute of  Technology  and
     chairman of the National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics.
.PA
8) Rear-Admiral Sidney W. Souers
     First  director  of Central Intelligence in  1946  and  when
     appointed  to  Majestic-12 was Executive  Secretary  of  the
     National Security Council (NSC).

9) Mr. Gordon L. Gray
     Assistant Secretary of the Army at the time he was  assigned
     to MJ-12 and later became Secretary of the Army in 1949. The
     following  year  he became Special  Assistant  to  President
     Truman.

10) Doctor Donald H. Menzel
     A specialist in astronomy and is world famous for  debunking
     of  all UFOs. Many of his mundane explanations for UFOs  are
     difficult to believe.

11) General Robert M. Montague
     Base Commander at Sandia Base, Albequerque, New Mexico

12) Doctor Lloyd V. Berkner
     Executive  Secretary of the Joint Research  and  Development
     Board, directed to study weapon systems and he was a  member
     of  the  Robertson  Panel, a scientific  advisory  panel  to
     review UFO research to date.
     ------------------------------------------------------------

                       THE MJ-12 Document

The  MJ-12 (Majestic 12) Documents are Classified  US  Government
Documents  that have surfaced and have been verified  by  various
experts  to  be authentic. Original criticism  arose  over  small
typing  errors.  It  was discovered that  top  secret  government
typists  are trained to insert small tying errors into each  copy
of a top secret document. By keeping a record of these "errors" a
leaked  document  can be traced by it's errors  to  the  original
person who recieved it.

Although all marks, letterhead, stamps etc. appear authentic  the
current controversy is over the format of the date. However other
government  documents  from the same period show  the  same  date
format have aparently been found.


The  document  is a breifing for the the president  of  the  USA,
Dwight  Eisenhower. It describes a crashed flying saucer and dead
aliens  that  were recovered in 1947. This is  not  the  original
document,  but  my  best effort to dupicate it  on  my  own  word
processor.
.pa
                        TOP SECRET/MAJIC
                            EYES ONLY

                  NATIONAL SECURITY INFORMATION

                         **************
                         * TOP SECRET *
                         **************

EYES ONLY                                         COPY ONE OF ONE




            BRIEFING DOCUMENT: OPERATION MAJESTIC 12

 PREPARED FOR PRESIDENT-ELECT DWIGHT D. EISENHOWER: (EYES ONLY)

                        18 NOVEMBER, 1952


>>> Continued to next message
---
 . SLMR 2.1a . I have a huge following...all my creditors!

Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!uunet.ca!hombas!joseph.daniels
From: [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: OPERATION MAJESTIC-12 PRELIMINARY BRIEFING FOR
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Dec 92 05:30:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Home Base BBS - St. Thomas, Ontario - 519-633-7253
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)
Lines: 147

>>> Continued from previous message
WARNING:  This  is a TOP SECRET - EYES ONLY  document  containing
compartmentalized information essential to the national  security
of the United States. EYES ONLY ACCESS to the material herein  is
strictly limited to those possessing Majestic-12 clearance level.
Reproduction in any form or the taking of written or mechanically
transcribed notes is strictly forbidden.

                         **************
                         * TOP SECRET *
                         **************

                                                   T52-EXEMPT (E)
.pa
                        TOP SECRET/MAJIC
                            EYES ONLY


                         **************
                         * TOP SECRET *
                         **************


EYES ONLY                                        COPY ONE OF ONE

   PRESIDENT-ELECT EISENHOWER.

DOCUMENT PREPARED 18 NOVEMBER, 1952.

BRIEFING OFFICER: ADM. ROSCOE H. HILLENKOETTER (MJ-1)

NOTE:  This document has been prepared as a preliminary  briefing
only. It should be regarded as introductory to a full  operations
briefing intended to follow.

                           * * * * * *

OPERATION  MAJESTIC-12 is a TOP SECRET Research and  Development/
Intelligence  operation  responsible  directly and  only  to  the
President  of  the United States. Operations of the  project  are

carried  out  under control of the Majestic-12  (Majic-12)  Group
which  was established by special classified executive  order  of
President  Truman on 24 September, 1947, upon  recommendation  by
Dr. Vannevar Bush and Secretary James Forrestal. (See  Attachment
"A".)  Members  of  the  Majestic-12  Group  were  designated  as
follows:

                Adm. Roscoe H. Hillenkoetter
                Dr. Vannevar Bush
                Secy. James V. Forrestal*
                Gen. Nathan F. Twining
                Gen. Hoyt S. Vandenberg
                Dr. Detlev Bronk
                Dr. Jerome Hunsaker
                Mr. Sidney W. Souers
                Mr. Gordon Gray
                Dr. Donald Manzel
                Gen. Robert M. Montague
                Dr. Lloyd V. Berkner

The  death  of  Secretary Forrestal on 22 May,  1949,  created  a
vacancy which remained unfilled until 01 August, 1950, upon which
date   Gen.   Walter  B.  Smith  was  designated   as   permanent
replacement.
.PA
                         **************
                         * TOP SECRET *
                         **************

EYES ONLY                                        COPY ONE OF ONE

On  24  June,  1947, a civilian pilot  flying  over  the  Cascade
Mountains  in the State of Washington observed nine flying  disc-
shaped  aircraft traveling in formation at a high rate of  speed.
Although  this was not the first known sighting of such  objects,
it  was  the  first to gain widespread attention  in  the  public
media.  Hundreds  of  reports of  sightings  of  similar  objects
followed.  Many of these came from highly credible  military  and
civilian  sources. These reports resulted in independent  efforts
by  several different elements of the military to  ascertain  the
nature  and purpose of these objects in the interest of  national
defense.  A number of witnesses were interviewed and  there  were
several  unsuccessful attempts to utilize aircraft in efforts  to
pursue reported discs in flight. Public reaction bordered on near
hysteria at times.

In spite of these efforts, little of substance was learned  about
the  objects until a local rancher reported that one had  crashed
in  a remote region of New Mexico located approximately  seventy-
five miles northwest of Roswell Army Air Base (now Walker Field).

On 07 July, 1947, a secret operation was begun to assure recovery
of  the wreckage of this object for scientific study. During  the
course  of this operation, aerial reconnaissance discovered  that
four  small  human-like beings had apparently  ejected  from  the
craft at some point before it exploded. These had fallen to earth
about two miles east of the wreckage site. All four were dead and
badly  decomposed due to action by predators and exposure to  the
elements during the approximately one week time period which  had
elapsed  before their discovery. A special scientific  team  took
charge of removing these bodies for study. (See Attachment  "C".)
The  wreckage of the craft was also removed to several  different
locations. (See Attachment "B".) Civilian and military  witnesses
in  the  area were debriefed, and news reporters were  given  the
effective  cover  story  that the object  had  been  a  misguided
weather research balloon.








                         **************
                         * TOP SECRET *
                         **************

EYES ONLY                                         T52-EXEMPT (E)
.pa
                         **************
                         * TOP SECRET *
                         **************

EYES ONLY                                        COPY ONE OF ONE

A covert analytical effort organized by Gen. Twining and Dr. Bush
acting  on  the  direct orders of the President,  resulted  in  a
preliminary concensus (19 September, 1947) that the disc was most
likely  a short range reconnaissance craft. This  conclusion  was
based for the most part on the craft's size and apparent lack  of
any  identifiable provisioning. (See Attachment "D".)  A  similar
analysis of the four dead occupants was arranged by Dr. Bronk. It
was  the tentative conclusion of this group (30  November,  1947)
that  although these creatures are human-like in appearance,  the
biological  and  evolutionary  processes  responsible  for  their
development  has  apparently  been  quite  different  from  those
observed  or  postulated in homo-sapiens. Dr.  Bronk's  team  has
suggested  the term "Extra-terrestrial Biological  Entities",  or
"EBEs"  be  adopted as the standard term of reference  for  these
creatures until such time as a more definitive designation can be
agreed upon.
>>> Continued to next message
---
 . SLMR 2.1a . I have a huge following...all my creditors!

Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!uunet.ca!hombas!joseph.daniels
From: [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: MJ-12                 3/4
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Dec 92 05:30:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Home Base BBS - St. Thomas, Ontario - 519-633-7253
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)
Lines: 152

>>> Continued from previous message
Since  it is virtually certain that these craft do not  originate
in  any country on earth, considerable speculation  has  centered
around what their point of origin might be and how they get here.
Mars  was  and remains a possibility, although  some  scientists,
most  notably  Dr. Menzel, consider it more likely  that  we  are
dealing with beings from another solar system entirely.

Numerous  examples  of what appear to be a form of  writing  were
found  in the wreckage. Efforts to decipher these  have  remained
largely unsuccessful. (See Attachment "E".) Equally  unsuccessful
have  been efforts to determine the method of propulsion  or  the
nature  of method of transmission of the power  source  involved.
Research  along these lines has been complicated by the  complete
absence  of  identifiable  wings,  propellers,  jets,  or   other
conventional  methods  of propulsion and guidance, as well  as  a
total   lack  of  metallic  wiring,  vacuum  tubes,  or   similar
recognizable  electronic components. (See Attachment "F".) It  is
assumed that the propulsion unit was completely destroyed by  the
explosion which caused the crash.







                         **************
                         * TOP SECRET *
                         **************

EYES ONLY                                          T52-EXEMPT (E)
.pa
                         **************
                         * TOP SECRET *
                         **************

EYES ONLY                                        COPY ONE OF ONE


A need for as much additional information as possible about these
craft, their performance characteristics and their purpose led to
the undertaking known as U.S. Air Force Project SIGN in December,
1947.  In  order to preserve security, liason  between  SIGN  and
Majestic-12   was   limited  to  two   individuals   within   the
Intelligence  Division of Air Material Command whose role was  to
pass  along certain types of information through  channels.  SIGN
evolved  into Project GRUDGE in December, 1948. The operation  is
currently  being  conducted under the code name BLUE  BOOK,  with
liason  maintained through the Air Force officer who is  head  of
the project.

On  06  December,  1950, a second  object,  probably  of  similar
origin,  impacted  the  earth at high speed in  the  El  Indio  -
Guerrero  area  of the Texas - Mexican border after  following  a
long trajectory through the atmosphere. By the time a search team
arrived,  what  remained of the object had  been  almost  totally
incinerated. Such material as could be recovered was  transported
to the A.E.C. facility at Sandia, New Mexico, for study.

Implications   for  the  National  Security  are  of   continuing
importance  in that the motives and ultimate intentions of  these
visitors  remain completely unknown. In addition,  a  significant
upsurge in the surveillance activity of these craft beginning  in
May  and  continuing through the autumn of this year  has  caused
considerable concern that new developments may be imminent. It is
for  these  reasons,  as well as the  obvious  international  and
technological  considerations  and the ultimate need to  avoid  a
public panic at all costs, that the Majestic-12 Group remains  of
the  unanimous opinion that imposition of the strictest  security
precautions  should  continue without interruption into  the  new
administration. At the same time, contingency plan MJ-1949-04P/78
(Top  Secret - Eyes Only) should be held in  continued  readiness
should  the  need to make a public announcement  present  itself.
(See Attachment "G".)







                         **************
                         * TOP SECRET *
                         **************

EYES ONLY                                        COPY ONE OF ONE
.pa
                         **************
                         * TOP SECRET *
                         **************

EYES ONLY                                        COPY ONE OF ONE

                  ENUMERATION OF ATTACHMENTS:

     *ATTACHMENT "A"........Special Classified Executive
                            Order #092447. (TS/EO)

     *ATTACHMENT "B"........Operation Majestic-12 Status
                            Report #1, Part A.  30 NOV '47.
                            (TS-MAJIC/EO)

     *ATTACHMENT "C"........Operation Majestic-12 Status
                            Report #1, Part B.  30 NOV '47.
                            (TS-MAJIC/EO)

     *ATTACHMENT "D"........Operation Majestic-12 Preliminary
                            Analytical Report.  19 SEP '47.
                            (TS-MAJIC/EO)

     *ATTACHMENT "E"........Operation Majestic-12 Blue Team
                            Report #5.  30 JUN '52.
                            (TS-MAJIC/EO)

     *ATTACHMENT "F"........Operation Majestic-12 Status
                            Report #2.  31 JAN '48.
                            (TS-MAJIC/EO)

     *ATTACHMENT "G"........Operation Majestic-12 Contingency
                            Plan MJ-1949-04P/78:  31 JAN '49.
                            (TS-MAJIC/EO)

     *ATTACHMENT "H"........Operation Majestic-12, Maps and
                            Photographs Folio (Extractions).
                            (TS-MAJIC/EO)
.pa










                         **************
                         * TOP SECRET *
                         **************

EYES ONLY                                        COPY ONE OF ONE






>>> Continued to next message
---
 . SLMR 2.1a . I have a huge following...all my creditors!

Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!uunet.ca!hombas!joseph.daniels
From: [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: MJ-12                 4/4
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Dec 92 05:30:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Home Base BBS - St. Thomas, Ontario - 519-633-7253
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)
Lines: 5

>>> Continued from previous message

---
 . SLMR 2.1a . I have a huge following...all my creditors!

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!eff!enterpoop.mit.edu!bloom-picayune.mit.edu!aurora!mt
From: [e-mail] (Mary Terhune)
Subject: Re: Talk, Today Dec 2nd on the Alien Abduction Phenomenon
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Originator: mt@aurora
Sender: [e-mail] (News system)
Nntp-Posting-Host: aurora.mit.edu
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: MIT Center for Space Research
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1992 17:36:45 GMT
Lines: 32

For those in the Cambridge MA area:

THE ALIEN ABDUCTION PHENOMENON

a talk by Dr. John E. Mack, Harvard Psychiatrist

will speak on the Spiritual and Tranformational Dimensions
of this phenomenon .

Wednesday, December 2, 1992
5:00Pm

The Sperry Room at the Harvard Divinity School
45 Francis Avenue (off Kirkland Street)
Cambridge MA

Dr. Mack who has worked extensively with individuals
reporting to have been abducted by aliens, will share
his experiences and thoughts.  He will conclude with
a question and answer session.

Free and open to the public.

--------

Now that I've shared this with the rest
of the world....would you please leave a parking
space for me!

Best,
Mary

Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!agate!garnet.berkeley.edu!ksanthan
From: [e-mail] (Kumaran Santhanam)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Strange facts
Date: 2 Dec 1992 18:56:25 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Lines: 3
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

"Strange tidbits" is good.  Thanks.

Kumaran
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!agate!garnet.berkeley.edu!ksanthan
From: [e-mail] (Kumaran Santhanam)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Strange Facts
Date: 2 Dec 1992 19:00:55 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

Sorry, guys...I should have brought it up earlier.  What I'm trying to get
at with these strange tidbits is one thing:  aliens may have visited us in
the ancient past.  Our religions may be based on Extra Terrestrials.  Wait!
Don't flame me!  I'm not making claims like our friend Winston.  I'm merely
bringing these things up for the mere fact that there is lots of knowledge
and knowledgeable people out there and I'd like us all to benefit from a
healthy discussion.  So, please, try not to flame and just try to intelligently
discuss the topics or skip over them if you don't want to read them.

*****************************************************************************
* Kumaran Santhanam                            [e-mail] *
*****************************************************************************
* "DOS is nothing more than a boot sector virus" - Anonymous                *
*****************************************************************************
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cbmvax!snark!beyonet!steve
From: [e-mail] (Steve Urich)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: John Winston and his unbelievable load of crap
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Dec 92 09:15:43 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Distribution: world
Organization: Beyonet - Zero Network
Lines: 11

In <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
>  (it really takes a LOT of BS for me to put someone in my kill file).

    Thats the only person I have in my killfile :^).

    Steve
--
|Stephen Urich|        Internet:[e-mail]         | "Cattle mutilations |
|NIC: SU2     |        UUCP:uunet!beyonet!steve        | are up!" --Sneakers |
|ARS: WB3FTP  | Packet:WB3FTP@WB3FTP.#EPA.PA.USA.NOAM  | ax25<->PBBS<->IPGATE|
|Bensalem, PA |Radio:[e-mail][44.80.8.44]| TCP/IP-FTP-SMTP-UNIX|
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cbmvax!snark!beyonet!steve
From: [e-mail] (Steve Urich)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Drake's Equation
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Dec 92 13:53:03 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Beyonet - Zero Network
Lines: 44
Keywords: Civilization Formula
Summary: Anybody try it?


    I grabbed this message off the packet network. Has anybody heard
    of this formula before. Is this the formula that Carl Sagan was
    using to determine if there are other civilizations in the
    universe? Only the Shadow knows :^)

    Steve

-=- Start ze Forwarded Bulletin -=-
MSG # TR  SIZE TO     FROM   @BBS   DATE    TITLE
10192 B#  1638 UFO    AA4ZI  USBBS  921201 re: "UFO Humbug!"
Forwarding path: WB3EUF KA3FMO N2BQF KC7Y N7IJI W7LJD WA4KJH AA4ZI

     At the present time I am neither pro or con on the existence of
UFO's. In my opinion all we can do is speculate on the existence of
Extraterrestrial Intelligence until we have some hard proof. In 1965
Dr. Frank Drake (of Project "OZMA" fame) neatly summed up these
considerations by a mathematical formula, now famous as Drake's
equation. It goes as follows:

             N = R * fp np fl fi fc L

  N = the number of technological civilizations currently in our
      Galaxy,
  R*= the average rate (in stars per year) of star formation in
      the Galaxy,
  fp= the fraction of stars having planets,
  np= the number of suitable planets per planetary system,
  fl= the fraction of planets on which life starts,
  fi= the fraction of life that evolves to intelligence,
  fc= the fraction of intelligent species which develops the ability
      to communicate, and
  L = the longevity in years of the technological phase.

73's and enjoy!

--Alan

*** END OF MSG # 10192 from AA4ZI @ AA4ZI.#WESTN.TN.USA.NA
--
|Stephen Urich|        Internet:[e-mail]         | "Cattle mutilations |
|NIC: SU2     |        UUCP:uunet!beyonet!steve        | are up!" --Sneakers |
|ARS: WB3FTP  | Packet:WB3FTP@WB3FTP.#EPA.PA.USA.NOAM  | ax25<->PBBS<->IPGATE|
|Bensalem, PA |Radio:[e-mail][44.80.8.44]| TCP/IP-FTP-SMTP-UNIX|
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cbmvax!snark!beyonet!steve
From: [e-mail] (Steve Urich)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Alien visitors landed in lake of konstanz (Ger)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Dec 92 22:52:37 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Distribution: world
Organization: Beyonet - Zero Network
Lines: 25

[e-mail] writes:

Obelix sagt: "Die spinnen die chemie studenten von konstanz"

>places in the lake, and the aliens started again their powerful
>rockets of their ships and disappeared in a flash of light and
>with a roaring sound. We couldn't stand the hurting light, so we

Be serious, rockets?!?!? If you would have thrown in a few
"ACH DU LIEBER!!!" in some of your story to make it more real
dramatic and authentic sounding then it would have been
more enjoyable to read as humor :^).

>they'll come back.     Heinz, Alex, Andi

To pick you up to take back to their planet Earth Zoo I'm sure.
I can't believe that it took 3 students to write this lousy
story!?!?!?

Steve
--
|Stephen Urich|        Internet:[e-mail]         | "Cattle mutilations |
|NIC: SU2     |        UUCP:uunet!beyonet!steve        | are up!" --Sneakers |
|ARS: WB3FTP  | Packet:WB3FTP@WB3FTP.#EPA.PA.USA.NOAM  | ax25<->PBBS<->IPGATE|
|Bensalem, PA |Radio:[e-mail][44.80.8.44]| TCP/IP-FTP-SMTP-UNIX|
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!csus.edu!netcom.com!payner
From: [e-mail] (Rich Payne)
Subject: Re: Heads Island
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1992 16:55:35 GMT
Lines: 21

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (frost...) writes:
>With all the talk about thee pyramids and such being bandied about by
>some of the people on the Net I am very surprized taht nobody has pos-
>tulated that the large and heavy stone heads on Easter Island were
>built by aliens.
>                        Jim

Did'nt Van Daniken do that years ago?

>======================================================================
>   We are rapidly ascending through prosperity to poverty...  Twain
>                    Internet:    [e-mail]
>       Albuquerque Public Schools - Instructional System Manager
>======================================================================


Rich

[e-mail]


Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13067 alt.alien.visitors:11569 sci.skeptic:35208
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!malgudi.oar.net!caen!uunet!infonode!case
From: [e-mail] (Bill Case)
Subject: Re: Pyramids
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Intergraph Corporation, Huntsville, AL.
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1992 23:17:29 GMT
Lines: 17

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jason D Corley ) writes:
>In essence, the pyramids were constructed by assembling a layer, putting
>very shallow ramps along the edge of that layer that would provide the
>means to getting the blocks of stone up to the next layer, and so on.
>There were a lot more complexities than this, but I think that's
>a general overview.  There is no need to posit extraterrestrial
>interference or anti-gravity.  They are simply anthropological artifacts
>and should be treated as such.

True.  These were supposedly serpentine ramps.  In fact, there's a partial
one that stil exists on one side of the pyramid.   Plus, there are
wall drawings showing the ramps being constructed,  and a well-
documented progression of small,  crude pyramids being refined over
time to the great ones.  With an alien foreman you could just go to
for the big cigar.

Bill "who carved the man in the moon?" Case
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13069 alt.alien.visitors:11570
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!saimiri.primate.wisc.edu!ames!agate!doc.ic.ac.uk!uknet!mucs!nessie!pca22.li.umist.ac.uk!cluster
From: [e-mail] (General Access)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ive been abducted!
Keywords: Aliens, Abducted, TripIn article <[e-mail]>,
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 2 Dec 92 11:16:55 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News System)
Organization: Manchester Computing Centre
Lines: 46

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Eric Kimminau) writes:


> A large object was coming down like you know what . Within three or
> four blinks of my eye it was hovering  over this little hill, right along
> side of me. The ship descended so rapidly that it startled me. I have never
> seen anything in my life move as fast as it movedd--from just a speck in the
> sky to a huge spaceship hovering over the top of the hill.  No sound,
> whatsoever. Not even a displacement of air.  You would have thought anything
> moving that fast through the air would break the sonic barrier or create a
> big whoosh from the air being pushed out of the way.  It looked like it was
> anchored over the top of the hill.
>   In evaluating the size of the craft (which I did afterwards) I estimated
> that this particular spaceship was about 150 feet in diameter.  Unlike some
> of the other saucer pictures that you see, particularly the Adamski type
> spaceships which have round things sticking out of the bottom, this one was
> absolutely flat on the bottom.  There wasn't anything sticking out of it.
> Its height was about 45 to 50 feet from the bottom to the very top.  The
> outer perimenter of the ship was round.
>   What looked like a bright light at the top of the ship was actually a
> half-round circle of what appeared to be some type of crystalline substance
> like glass.  There was a detectable glow coming from it.  (I found out later
> that this was where the forcefield was exiting the ship and that is where it
> was coming out of at the time.  I imagine it radiated outward from other
> places around the ship and spread out around the rim when they were in
> movement. But when it was just hovering it was glowing at the one particular
> point.)
>   A strange thing happened. I made the decision to get a close look, so I
> walked up the side of the hill. As I got under the edge of the ship, I
> noticed that even with the light jacket I was wearing, and particularly on
> the backs of my hands, that the hair just stood up.  I noticed a prickling
> senstion on my skin.  I could associate this with being around a high
> voltage source of  electricity; you sometimes notice this same thing
> occuring.  Apparently there was an electrical discharge in the air around
> the ship, becouse its power was still turned on while it was hovering.
>   As I was standing there lookng up at the ship, there was a slight noise and
> then a doorway opend on the outer rim of the ship. I was fascinated because
> it looked like it was a tongue-and-grooved type thing.  Then a stairway
> decended from the opening. (I looked at the mechanics of it later and this
> astairway was not flexible, it was rigid. Somewhere there was a pivot point
> so it slanted down, came out a little way and then dropped down.)
> That is the last thing I remember.
>|> John Winston.


yea yea winston we believe you......not.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13070 alt.alien.visitors:11571 sci.skeptic:35222
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!saimiri.primate.wisc.edu!ames!olivea!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Dec 92 02:34:07 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 10

Dear Everybody: Language is inadiquate to express my great joy in
receiving this prize from Kibo.  I would like to thank all of the
wonderful flamers who have helped me along the way. I enjoyed Mary
telling about the Guru that she has found. She sounds like a good
one. Mine was just a crippled old man in a T.V. repair shop but he
was kind enough to show me the way. Boy I sound just like a T.V.
preacher. Don't let Robert Sheaffer read this.
 Oh yes you flamers be careful because as you know it is the Christmas
season and according to the song, Grandma Got Run Over By A Reindeer
John Winston
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13071 alt.alien.visitors:11572 sci.skeptic:35230
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!sun-barr!olivea!stratus!florida!lpb
From: [e-mail] (Len Bucuvalas)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Pyramids
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Dec 92 00:42:09 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Informed Consent
Lines: 52

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail]
>   (kevin fisher U) writes:
>> :
>> :                                         ... and return to believing the
>> :    logical and extensively researched anthropological standpoint, which
>> :    is that people build the Pyramids and the Nazca lines, and that they
>> :    did it themselves, with nothing but ingenuity, slaves, and theological
>> :    clarity.  Did I mention hard work?  OK, hard work too.  What you say
>> :    may or may not be true, but unless you can prove it, I have no choice
>> :    but to assume it is untrue.
>> :
>> :     Jason
>
>> I have a question here:  I've heard many times that it would be difficult
>> (if not impossible) for even modern man to reproduce the pyramids with such
>> engineering prowiss the egyptians did.  If this is true, how could they have
>> done it in the first place?  How could they do something that we can't even
>> reproduce?
>>
>> Just a question, no flame intended...
>>
>> --
>
>Edgar Casey says that they understood and used anti-gravity.  Speaking of
>which, did anyone else see the Australian produced program "Beyond 2000" on
>the Discovery Channel that showed an electical-magnetic anti-gravity field
>and that it's first commercial use would be in shock absorbers for cars?
I think that it is currently possible to create an EMF feild
that can surround an object with a very dense feild that can
be directed (in polarity) to provide propulsion.

Without a doubt EMF IS being experimented with by the gvts USA
and USSR......and has been experimented with since the late
1940s. I would imagine by now that these F-111s and the like
are for show and tell while the real armaments are being
withheld.

In fact I do believe I have a file which provides a
rudimentary explanation of how this can be done. When I find
it I will post it here.
>
>Have fun!
>
>   =-Kathy->                                   [e-mail]

Len
--
*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*
The accountability of government has gone to the point where the very
use of the law is the instrument of illegality.
        -- Ralph Nader @ Harvard Law School, 1/15/92
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13073 alt.alien.visitors:11573 alt.religion.kibology:4970
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!virgin!unhtel!morwyn!forrie
From: [e-mail] (Forrest Aldrich)
Subject: Re: Ive been abducted! IN BED
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Vision Graphics
              Dover, NH
              USA
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1992 07:27:59 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: morwyn.uucp![e-mail] (Forrest Aldrich - SysAdmin)
Lines: 16

From article <[e-mail]>,
[e-mail] (Eric Kimminau) has written:
+--------------------
| Thanks for not sending me netmail and asking if I would tell you more about it like 2 other readers did. Im glad someone else saw through the BS as was intended.
+--------------------

    Of what use is this 'BS' to the newsgroup?  Granted, we have some pretty
    poor examples here (JW, et al), and it seems to me someone just did
    this earlier for petty entertainment, but seriously... post to
    rec.humor if need be.
--
       -----------          Forrest Aldrich          -----------
       -------     morwyn![e-mail]      -------
       ----                             ----
       --         VISION GRAPHICS --    Dover, NH - USA           --
       ------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!virgin!unhtel!morwyn!forrie
From: [e-mail] (Forrest Aldrich)
Subject: Re: Contact Notes
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Vision Graphics
              Dover, NH
              USA
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1992 11:38:24 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: morwyn.uucp![e-mail] (Forrest Aldrich - SysAdmin)
Lines: 49

From article <[e-mail]>,
[e-mail] (Rick Pavek) has written:
+--------------------
| In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeff) writes:
| >
| >And, if Cooper is correct, and Project Grudge Report #13 was written by Hynek
| >then Vallee's early carrer ties with Hynek place his credibilty as highly
| >suspect.
|
| I'd really recommend reading Vallee's _Forbidden Science_.
+--------------------

    Now this is a book I never heard of.  What year was it published?

+--------------------
| Personally,
| I have to reach pretty far to entertain the notion that Vallee is part
| of the problem.
+--------------------

    Very, very far... 'way out there' IMHO.  However, before saying this,
    I did consider it for a moment.  And didn't feel comfortable with
    that accusation.

+--------------------
| I think that there is so little real data there, and
| so much deliberate confusion created as a result of contactee cults,
| and other con-artists out to make a buck that no one can say, with absolute
| conviction that they know the _real_ story.  The people that know this
| aren't talking.  (Battelle, Lockheed, Northrup, General Dynamics, Rockwell,
| General Electric, DOD, DOE, the President, CIA, etc).
+--------------------

    Indeed.

+--------------------
| Before you go off spouting opinions, do your homework.
+--------------------

    Very well put, Rick... thanks for posting that.  I only wish that some
    of these people would not only listen, but _realize_ that.

    Forrest
--
       -----------          Forrest Aldrich          -----------
       -------     morwyn![e-mail]      -------
       ----                             ----
       --         VISION GRAPHICS --    Dover, NH - USA           --
       ------------------------------------------------------
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13074 alt.alien.visitors:11575 sci.skeptic:35231
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!virgin!unhtel!morwyn!forrie
From: [e-mail] (Forrest Aldrich)
Subject: Re: The Extraterrestial Within.
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Vision Graphics
              Dover, NH
              USA
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1992 11:40:48 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: morwyn.uucp![e-mail] (Forrest Aldrich - SysAdmin)
Lines: 21

From article <[e-mail]>,
[e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer) has written:
+--------------------
| In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
| >Subject: Have You Got An Extraterrestial In You?
|
| Hey, John, they already did a movie about that one. Didn't you see "ALIENS"?
| The guy has this extraterrestrial in him, and it comes burrowing out.
| Gorey as all Hell!
+--------------------

    Careful, now... I think this may be an interlude to another bizarre
    story about how he was born... :)


--
       -----------          Forrest Aldrich          -----------
       -------     morwyn![e-mail]      -------
       ----                             ----
       --         VISION GRAPHICS --    Dover, NH - USA           --
       ------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!darwin.sura.net!sgiblab!sgigate!odin!slugo.corp.sgi.com!rodb
From: [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith)
Subject: Re: Contact Notes
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Net News)
Nntp-Posting-Host: slugo.corp.sgi.com
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1992 05:16:20 GMT
Lines: 26

Forrest,

It was published not too long ago, 466 pages, $24.95, Publisher: North
Atlantic Books.

There is a review of it in the November issue of the MUFON journal #295.

As soon as I can find an OCR scanner here on campus, I will put it out
there for all to see.

It is his personal diary from Xmas Eve 1957 to Dec 13, 1969. I am no big
fan of Mr. Vallee, although I will just say that from what I read in the
review it might be worth a look, just to see what really motivates this
guy. Someone whom has been involved with the UFO phenomena this long must
have something to offer, or to hide;->

Rod
--
Rod Beckwith     |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Datacom I/S      |"The great obstacle of progress is not ignorance,
[e-mail]|but the illusion of knowledge."
                 |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$




Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13075 alt.alien.visitors:11577 sci.skeptic:35237
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!uunet!munnari.oz.au!bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au!uqvax.cc.uq.oz.au!mail_graham
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Pyramids
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Dec 92 15:34:37 AEST
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: MAIL_GRAHAM
Distribution: world
Organization: University Of Queensland
Lines: 41

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (ROSEN Dan) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail]
>>   (kevin fisher U) writes:
>>
>>> I have a question here:  I've heard many times that it would be difficult
>>> (if not impossible) for even modern man to reproduce the pyramids with such
>>> engineering prowiss the egyptians did.  If this is true, how could they have
>>> done it in the first place?  How could they do something that we can't even
>>> reproduce?
>>>
>>> Just a question, no flame intended...
>>>
>>> --
>>
>>Edgar Casey says that they understood and used anti-gravity.  Speaking of
>>which, did anyone else see the Australian produced program "Beyond 2000" on
>>the Discovery Channel that showed an electical-magnetic anti-gravity field
>>and that it's first commercial use would be in shock absorbers for cars?
>>
> If E. Casey said that, then it must be true.......NOT!
>
> This amazing engineering expertise of the egyptian is one big fallacy (or
> two :-) ). While they are to be admired for their advanced techniques, FOR THEIR
> TIME. Certainly, they didn't accomplish anything fantastic, engineeringwise,
> that cannot be accomplished today, or for that matter a few centuries ago.
> The pyramids are NOT PERFECT. There are many defects in them. While they are
> most certainly historic treasures, they are not something unnatural for their
> time.
>
> As for E. Casey..... he certainly didn't understand antigravity, nor many
> other things he spoke about.
>
> I strongly recomend "Flim-Flam" by James Randi (I think the publisher is
> Prometheus books, in Buffalo). It has a pretty good treatment of Casey,
> Von Daineken (his "theories" of the pyramids, etc), etc.
>
> Best Regards
>
> -Dan.
>
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13076 alt.alien.visitors:11578 alt.religion.kibology:4971
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!uunet!Cadence.COM!jdm
From: [e-mail] (Joe Mastroianni)
Subject: Re: Good
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1992 22:52:26 GMT
Lines: 42

  Why?  John, why?

  The world is a mysterious place, I'll grant you that. People win tens
of millions of American dollars in 10-digit lottos while the population
of Bosnia is being exterminated by Serbians. Why?  I've never met a Serb
or a Bosnian.  Why do the Armenians dislike the Azerbijanis? I know a
few Armenians and they never once told me they had a problem with some
people back in south-eastern Europe.  The most they ever worried about
in public was how much it was going to cost to get the car tuned up or
whether bug spray would harm the dog.

  But what difference does it make, John?  Who cares if there are people
from other dimensions living among us that look, dress, smell, and eat
exactly the same as people from this dimension?  Who cares if UFO fish
from other vibrational energies are standing between me and the movie screen
when I go to see "Aladdin."  I can't see them. They don't bother me and
I do my best to stay out of their way.

  Here's what I want out of life in no particular order: sex, food, love,
and some time to write my stories.

  Do you have time to write your stories?  I spend most of my time working
for money and the highly vibratory fish aren't helping things one little
bit.

  Is it about drugs, John?  Is this whole thing about how many drugs we
did back in the '60s? We didn't know back then this would happen to us. Now
we do. It's time to stop the random fucking because you can get AIDS and die.
It's time to stop smoking.

It's time to stop the senseless dream time and get on with the business
of living human lives, killing things for food, and creating things that
make it easier for other humans to live their lives.

  That's what we were put here to do--or have you forgotten so soon?

  Joe
--
Joe Mastroianni          AKA: AA6YD  AA6YD @ N6LDL.#NOCAL.CA.USA.NA
Cadence Design Systems
Santa Clara Ca.          "Up the airy mountain;down the rushy glen; we
[e-mail]           daren't go a hunting; for fear of little men "
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13077 alt.alien.visitors:11579
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!uunet!Cadence.COM!jdm
From: [e-mail] (Joe Mastroianni)
Subject: Re: Trip
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1992 23:01:57 GMT
Lines: 27

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Subject: Let's take a Little Trip.

. . .  to the bank.  Because that's what life is all about. Money. The
acquisition and retention of personal wealth.  If you were rich as hell,
you wouldn't care about UFOs.

       Whitley Strieber got a million-dollar advance for his book "Communion."
In case you've forgotten, "Communion" is a book about how aliens helped
ol Whitley get over writer's block.  I tell you, a million bucks would
cure writer's block for me too.  I bet Whitley spent all the money already.

       Whitley wrote some other books once "Communion" motivated him to
spend more time typing and less time worrying about why his house guests
felt hanging around with him was about as much fun as being a laboratory
hamster. I think the other books are science fiction or horror-- as opposed
to "Communion" which was both.


      Joe


--
Joe Mastroianni          AKA: AA6YD  AA6YD @ N6LDL.#NOCAL.CA.USA.NA
Cadence Design Systems
Santa Clara Ca.          "Up the airy mountain;down the rushy glen; we
[e-mail]           daren't go a hunting; for fear of little men "
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13078 alt.alien.visitors:11580 alt.religion.kibology:4972
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!uunet!world!kibo
From: [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry)
Subject: Re: Ive been abducted! IN BED
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Two rooms filled with typography, in downtown Boston
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1992 05:58:25 GMT
Lines: 19

In article <[e-mail]> morwyn.uucp![e-mail] (Forrest Aldrich - SysAdmin) writes:
>From article <[e-mail]>,
>[e-mail] (Eric Kimminau) has written:
>+--------------------
>| Thanks for not sending me netmail and asking if I would tell you more about it like 2 other readers did. Im glad someone else saw through the BS as was intended.
>+--------------------
>
>    Of what use is this 'BS' to the newsgroup?  Granted, we have some pretty
>    poor examples here (JW, et al), and it seems to me someone just did
>    this earlier for petty entertainment, but seriously... post to
>    rec.humor if need be.

But rec.humor isn't nearly as funny.

Incidentally, which do you mean by "the newsgroup"?  You posted to three
of them, as you would have noticed if you had read the headers.

                                -- K.

Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13079 alt.alien.visitors:11581 sci.skeptic:35241 alt.religion.kibology:4974
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.religion.kibology
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!uunet!world!kibo
From: [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry)
Subject: Re: Kibo
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Two rooms filled with typography, in downtown Boston
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1992 06:12:24 GMT
Lines: 19

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Dear Folks: He that sineth against me shall be forgiven but he that
>that taketh the name of the Great Kibo in vain shall not be forgiven
>either in this world or the world to come.
>Source of information: Kibology 21 verse 2.
>John Winston.

Actually, I think you're confusing the "Big Book Of Kibology For Boys"
with "Kibonetics: The User's Manual For Your Neighbor's Mind".  The Big
Book says, in KIB 21:2, "Kibo is the source of all missing objects, and
the Universe is the sink."  Kibonetics, in KIB III 21:2, is the passage
you meant.

Soon to be published: "Dog Kibonetics", "Kibolojoy!", "Things Kibo Said",
"Things Kibo Will Say", "The Best Of Kibo's Comics", and "The Kibo
Effect: A Study In Lutefisk".

                            -- K.

Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13080 alt.alien.visitors:11582 sci.skeptic:35242 alt.religion.kibology:4975
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.religion.kibology
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!uunet!world!kibo
From: [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry)
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: alt.religion.kibology
Organization: Two rooms filled with typography, in downtown Boston
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1992 06:17:34 GMT
Lines: 18

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Dear Everybody: Language is inadiquate to express my great joy in
>receiving this prize from Kibo.

But how could you have received it when I haven't mailed it yet?

Look for a small package in the mail in four days or so.  It will
contain your prize and the certificate that certifies you.

[re gurus]
>     Mine was just a crippled old man in a T.V. repair shop but he
>was kind enough to show me the way.

Wasn't that a novel by P K Dick, "Dr Bloodmoney"?  Hmm, come to think of
it, Dick *did* repair TVs for a while, so maybe it was him in person.

                        -- K.

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!wupost!csus.edu!netcom.com!payner
From: [e-mail] (Rich Payne)
Subject: Re: Drake's Equation
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: Civilization Formula
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1992 05:41:10 GMT
Lines: 89

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Steve Urich) writes:
>
>    I grabbed this message off the packet network. Has anybody heard
>    of this formula before. Is this the formula that Carl Sagan was
>    using to determine if there are other civilizations in the
>    universe? Only the Shadow knows :^)
>
>    Steve
>
>-=- Start ze Forwarded Bulletin -=-
>MSG # TR  SIZE TO     FROM   @BBS   DATE    TITLE
>10192 B#  1638 UFO    AA4ZI  USBBS  921201 re: "UFO Humbug!"
>Forwarding path: WB3EUF KA3FMO N2BQF KC7Y N7IJI W7LJD WA4KJH AA4ZI
>
>     At the present time I am neither pro or con on the existence of
>UFO's. In my opinion all we can do is speculate on the existence of
>Extraterrestrial Intelligence until we have some hard proof. In 1965
>Dr. Frank Drake (of Project "OZMA" fame) neatly summed up these
>considerations by a mathematical formula, now famous as Drake's
>equation. It goes as follows:
>
>             N = R * fp np fl fi fc L
>
>  N = the number of technological civilizations currently in our
>      Galaxy,
>  R*= the average rate (in stars per year) of star formation in
>      the Galaxy,

Certainty = pretty high

>  fp= the fraction of stars having planets,

Certainty = 0 (for any number)

>  np= the number of suitable planets per planetary system,

Caerainty = 0 (this info cannot preceed 'fp' above)

>  fl= the fraction of planets on which life starts,

Certainty = 0

>  fi= the fraction of life that evolves to intelligence,

Certainty = 0 (like all above, no data)

>  fc= the fraction of intelligent species which develops the ability
>      to communicate, and

Certainty = 0

>  L = the longevity in years of the technological phase.

Certainty = 0 (all we know about is 1 technology, and a very young one at that)

>73's and enjoy!

The data available supports any N from 0 to infinity with the same certainty.
Any result is a pure guess, and about as valid as any other guess. Picking a
number out of a had will yield equally valid results.

The problem I have with this formula is that some will look at it and the
numbers Sagan plugged in (I recall Sagan doing so, hope he did), and think that
there should be some civilizations out there, or even some advanced enough to
get here, and it cannot be concluded from the available astronomical
information.

Note that some (non-planet) brown dwarfs and other near planet sized bodies
have recently been detected, although one turned out to be an artifact. Also an
accretion disk has been spotted.

We have more data then before, but not enough to give reasonable certainty
to any of the variables.

>--Alan
>
>*** END OF MSG # 10192 from AA4ZI @ AA4ZI.#WESTN.TN.USA.NA
>--
>|Stephen Urich|        Internet:[e-mail]         | "Cattle mutilations |
>|NIC: SU2     |        UUCP:uunet!beyonet!steve        | are up!" --Sneakers |
>|ARS: WB3FTP  | Packet:WB3FTP@WB3FTP.#EPA.PA.USA.NOAM  | ax25<->PBBS<->IPGATE|
>|Bensalem, PA |Radio:[e-mail][44.80.8.44]| TCP/IP-FTP-SMTP-UNIX|


Rich

[e-mail]


Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!agate!dog.ee.lbl.gov!hellgate.utah.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: More Strange Facts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Dec 92 02:20:01 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - <ParaNet(sm) , Arvada CO
Lines: 17


 > From: [e-mail] (Sarvesh Mathur)
 > Date: 1 Dec 92 22:30:52 GMT
 > Organization: Acuson; Mountain View, California
 > Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors

 > If there is any interest, I can get some more info from these books.

Interest here.  I will post an old news article about this too.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!agate!dog.ee.lbl.gov!hellgate.utah.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Strange Facts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Dec 92 02:23:02 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - <ParaNet(sm) , Arvada CO
Lines: 19


 > From: [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith)
 > Date: 2 Dec 92 02:40:54 GMT
 > Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.
 > Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors

 > AMEN! Get with it people. THIS IS alt.alien.visitors, not
 > alt.ask.any.bizzare.question.you.might.think.of . Please
 > try & stick with the program a little closer.

I disagree that the stuff that I have seen thus far under this topic is off-topic.  Actually, they are interesting stories that may have some bearing on the UFO phenomena itself.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!emory!europa.asd.contel.com!darwin.sura.net!haven.umd.edu!uunet!gator!towers!bluemoon!lchurch2
From: [e-mail] (Leonard Church)
Subject: Re: Strange facts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (BBS Login)
Organization: Blue Moon BBS ((614) 868-998[024])
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 92 12:49:50 EST
Lines: 33

[e-mail] (kevin fisher U) writes:

> :
> : What source did you get this from? And who compared the satellite
> : photos?
> :
> : john
> :
> : --
> : John Nielsen   MAGNUS Consultant            ______   ______   __  __
> : [e-mail]         /\  __ \ /\  ___\ /\ \/\ \
> :                                            \ \ \/\ \\ \___  \\ \ \_\ \
> :   Back off man, I'm a Scientist!            \ \_____\\/\_____\\ \_____\
> I myself read this in some book (can't remember which).  They superimposed
> an American Military satellite photo centred on Cairo over the original
> mystery map and they were very close..
>
> just my 2 cents here..
>
> --
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Kevin Fisher  ><>     |  "Thank you.  You can't believe everything you
> [e-mail]   |  see and hear, can you?" - Hendrix, 'EXP'
> _____________________________________________________________________________

I think it was one of those "Chariots of the Gods" type books... I have
seen pictures of this myself as well as having had access to some very
sophisticated orbital satellite photos... there is some truth to the
assumptions.

-------------------------------------------------------------
Growing trees in a concrete Jungle | [e-mail]
-------------------------------------------------------------
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Re:Finding a Guru
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu,  3 Dec 92 06:17:07 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 5

Dear People: Don Showen is really telling you people how the cow
ate the cabbage. Maybe he will tell us all how he corrected an angel
down in San Diego, Calif sometime. It's one of the most funny stories
I have ever heard.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13081 alt.alien.visitors:11588 sci.skeptic:35253
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu,  3 Dec 92 06:21:43 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 5

Dear Humans: You people should listen to Don Showen because he is
telling you the truth the whole truth, so help me the Great Kibo.
I hope he will tell us how he once corrected an angel in San Diego,
Calif.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13082 alt.alien.visitors:11589
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu,  3 Dec 92 06:27:53 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 6

Dear Folks: I hope none of these people don't decide to sue me for
putting down information from their books. The last time I tried to
get permission in the proper way the person (not Richard Millers group)
threatened me with everything in the book. I figure it's good adver-
tisement for these people.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13083 alt.alien.visitors:11590 alt.religion.kibology:4980
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu,  3 Dec 92 06:31:29 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 4

Dear Monster Watchers: I have been as busy as a cat on a hot tin
roof lately but will try to get some more information on the Net
soon.
John Winston.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!wupost!uunet!noc.near.net!mars.caps.maine.edu!maine.maine.edu!farmington.caps.maine.edu!if15180
Organization: University of Maine System
Date: Wednesday, 2 Dec 1992 22:28:27 EST
From: <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Who believes?
References: <[e-mail]>
 <[e-mail]>
Lines: 9

To Rob u,

It is important to note the level of disbelief in
simple minded unopen people.


Thanks for your input,

And, Oh if you're not interested in a group like this, why read it?
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!agate!dog.ee.lbl.gov!news!nosc!ryptyde!jim
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:       Newsletter
From: [e-mail] (Jim Bowery)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 92 06:53:32 PST
Organization: NetLink Online Communications, San Diego CA
Lines: 20

<[e-mail]> writes:

> Thanks to all who have replied  to my posting of 10/29/92 about the newslette
> The name of the newsletter is The Nefilim Forum, indeed, its subscribers do
> participate in the discussions. I keep the discussion flowing, introduce new
> topics for discussion, etc. The purpose of the newsletter os two-fold:
> educate the subscribers by having them exposed to new info about extraterrest
> rials in ancient and modern times, and to have by collective effort gain some
> more insight into what happened and is happening in regards to the influence
> of extraterrestrials on the human societies throught the ages.
>
> Regards,
> Vladislav Botvinnik

I'd like to subscribe to the newsletter.  What do I do?

--
INTERNET:  [e-mail] (Jim Bowery)
UUCP:   ...!ryptyde!netlink!jim
NetLink Online Communications * Public Access in San Diego, CA [phone]
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!pipex!warwick!str-ccsun!dct.ac.uk!mcsdc1al
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Re:Finding a Guru
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Dec 92 16:32:11 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Dundee Institute of Technology
Lines: 24

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Mary Terhune) writes:
> Re: Finding a Guru
>
> Someone asked about finding a Guru.
> I have found such a realized Guru, Her name
> is Gurumayi also known as Chidvilasananda.
> She is the successor to Baba Muktananda and
> the Siddha Yoga Lineage. She resides at
> her Ashram in South Fallsburg, NY 914-434-2000.
> I have known her for 6 years and you can know
> her greatness just by being in her Presence.
>
> Best,
> Mary

The old saying is that when the pupil is ready, the teacher will appear.

I'm not suggesting anything but please don't go paying this woman over the odds
for anything.  I'd be suspicious because she claims to be a descendant of other
gurus.  That's not the kind of thing a real guru does, like that's the
equivalent of a doctor having his diploma hanging up in the waiting room.


>
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mcsun!sunic!ugle.unit.no!alf.uib.no!hsr.no!elektro11.hsr.no!trondk_l
From: [e-mail] (Lindanger, Trond K.    8-94)
Subject: Re: Talk, Today Dec 2nd on the Alien Abduction Phenomenon
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Rogaland University Centre
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1992 16:53:17 GMT
Lines: 30

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Mary Terhune) writes:
>From: [e-mail] (Mary Terhune)
>Subject: Re: Talk, Today Dec 2nd on the Alien Abduction Phenomenon
>Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1992 17:36:45 GMT

>For those in the Cambridge MA area:

>THE ALIEN ABDUCTION PHENOMENON

>a talk by Dr. John E. Mack, Harvard Psychiatrist

>will speak on the Spiritual and Tranformational Dimensions
>of this phenomenon .

>Wednesday, December 2, 1992
>5:00Pm

>The Sperry Room at the Harvard Divinity School
>45 Francis Avenue (off Kirkland Street)
>Cambridge MA

>Best,
>Mary


COULD SOMEBODY MAKE A SHORT RESUME OF HIS "LESSON" AND POST IT TO THIS
NEWSGROUP?

Trond K. Lindanger
- Your friend in Norway
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!usc!news.service.uci.edu!ucivax!megatek!max
From: [e-mail] (Max Elliot)
Subject: Re: Heads Island
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1992 17:20:13 GMT
Lines: 30

From article <[e-mail]>, by [e-mail] (frost...):
> With all the talk about thee pyramids and such being bandied about by
> some of the people on the Net I am very surprized taht nobody has pos-
> tulated that the large and heavy stone heads on Easter Island were
> built by aliens.

  They have...

  It has been debunked.


>                         Jim
> ======================================================================
>    We are rapidly ascending through prosperity to poverty...  Twain
>                     Internet:    [e-mail]
>        Albuquerque Public Schools - Instructional System Manager
> ======================================================================


  There have been a goodly number of 'debunkings' lately and I like it.
  We have a FAQ about aliens, etc.  Maybe we should generate a list of
  currently 'explained' phenomena, so that we don't rehash and rehash
  and rehash and rehash and rehash and... Well, you get the point. It
  just strikes me as silly that someone posits alien intervention as
  the cause for <insert favorite edifice or phenomenon here> about
  every few months, and then the wheels spin until someone who knows
  better speaks up. Just a thought.

  Cheers!
-Max
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:11596 sci.skeptic:35279
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!charon.amdahl.com!amdahl!JUTS!duts!dfs30
From: [e-mail] (Denise Solis)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Question for John Winston
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Dec 92 18:11:04 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Denise Solis)
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA
Lines: 33

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (David R. Stepien) writes:
>
>To John Winston:
>Please post an answer to this question:
>
>.....stuff deleted........
>My question is:
>
>What is the psychic/spiritual effect upon a person who manages to foster
>significant hostility towards himself amongst a large group of people?
>
>....more stuff deleted..........................
>David


When are you guys going to get a clue?
You can't control another person. I swear, I get more tired of your
constant bitching than I do John's posts. Just put his id in a kill
file and be done with it.

He is going to do what he wants to do and there's nothing anyone can
do about it. Many have tried so give up already!

Besides, he is not responsible for your anger or any other emotion for
that matter, you are. He does not have to accept any bad energy from
anyone. But no doubt , like his posts, you will continue to send it.


--
=========================================================================
||%%%%||         Denise Solis -- [e-mail]       ||%%%%||
||%%%%||  Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty  ||%%%%||
=========================================================================
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!agate!garnet.berkeley.edu!ksanthan
From: [e-mail] (Kumaran Santhanam)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Strange Tidbits
Date: 3 Dec 1992 18:37:28 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Lines: 9
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

Has anyone ever heard of or read the book, "100,000 Years of Man's Unknown
History?"  I once read it in 8th grade and never saw it again.  I would be
interesting in knowing what other people think of it.

*****************************************************************************
* Kumaran Santhanam                            [e-mail] *
*****************************************************************************
* "DOS is nothing more than a boot sector virus" - Anonymous                *
*****************************************************************************
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13084 alt.alien.visitors:11598 sci.skeptic:35281
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!sun-barr!olivea!uunet!pipex!warwick!coventry!aph016
From: [e-mail] (ozzy)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Dec 92 17:10:24 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (news user)
Organization: Coventry University, Coventry, UK.
Lines: 11
Nntp-Posting-Host: cc_sysh

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Dear Humans: Kumar has suggested that we go to Stonehenge this week
>on the OOBE train. He understands that the astral colors are great
>there. So to England it shall be.
>John Winston.

Naaahh, you'll have to wait outside along the fences, they dont let
anyone into Stonehenge these days, we just go there to watch the tank
manouvers nearby :-)

-=*ozzy*=-
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!csus.edu!netcom.com!jeffp
From: [e-mail] (Jeff)
Subject: Re: Contact Notes
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: BeHereNow
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1992 18:44:54 GMT
Lines: 37

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rick Pavek) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeff) writes:
>>
>>And, if Cooper is correct, and Project Grudge Report #13 was written by Hynek,
>>then Vallee's early carrer ties with Hynek place his credibilty as highly
>>suspect.
>
>I'd really recommend reading Vallee's _Forbidden Science_.  Personally,
>I have to reach pretty far to entertain the notion that Vallee is part
>of the problem.  I think that there is so little real data there, and
>so much deliberate confusion created as a result of contactee cults,
>and other con-artists out to make a buck that no one can say, with absolute
>conviction that they know the _real_ story.  The people that know this
>aren't talking.  (Battelle, Lockheed, Northrup, General Dynamics, Rockwell,
>General Electric, DOD, DOE, the President, CIA, etc).
>
>Before you go off spouting opinions, do your homework.
>

I have read some of the CUFOS News letter, and I have read Revelations,
but not much else of JV's.

I feel like I'm reading Klass when I read his stuff... Adamski, Meir,
Gulf Breeze, virtually every famous UFO case is written off as a phoney
in Revelations. I don't buy that, and it wreeks of hidden agenda...

Vallee throws lots more curves than he provides information. I get mostly
personal opinions from him; he spews his gut feelings more than anything
else; and my gut tells me he is narrow minded and is leading me down a
dead-end road.

So, if I don't trust the guy, why would I want to read much more of his
work? I stopped reading Cooper too...

JEff-


Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!usenet.coe.montana.edu!news.u.washington.edu!raven.alaska.edu!news
From: [e-mail] (A figment of your imagination)
Subject: Attention: Dean Haley
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Nntp-Posting-Host: camelot.acf-lab.alaska.edu
Organization: University of Alaska Computer Network
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1992 19:19:56 GMT
Lines: 31


>p.s. Reply_to field is set wrong in this message. reply to
>[e-mail]

I attempted to send you a mail message concerning your FAQ
request, however the address you gave me bounces the message.

-
From:     PMDF Mail Server
Subject:  Undeliverable mail: SMTP delivery failure

The message could not be delivered to:

Addressee: [e-mail]
Remote system's reason for rejecting: <[e-mail]>...
User unknown
-

So please send me a new address so I can reach you.
Thanks,
                         Bitnet: Fsdlk@alaska
                       Internet: [e-mail]
                      NeXT Mail: [e-mail]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~  ...........  .......          .           .       .            ~
~  .            .      .        Nasha tai no kasei!         .   . ~
~  ...          .......           .            .                  ~
~  .            .               Prosperity and Long Life, To You. ~
~  .... xisting . hantom              .             .             ~
~                             .                            .      ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13085 alt.alien.visitors:11601 sci.skeptic:35286
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!gatech!mailer.cc.fsu.edu!firnvx.firn.edu!waddell
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Pyramids
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 34
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News File Owner)
Nntp-Posting-Host: firnvx.firn.edu
Organization: Florida State University
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: 3 Dec 92 15:06:47 EST


From:   Swain Martin Thomas <[e-mail]>
To:     [e-mail]
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
Date:   Thu, 3 Dec 1992 10:50:05 -0700

Hi. Sorry to hassle you on the e-mail like this, but my post button
is broken. No kidding, there have been some problems with the unix
system here at U of A, and I can't post. Feel free to post this.
In fact, I'd consider it a favour.                 Martin T. Swain



> Edgar Casey says that they understood and used anti-gravity.  Speaking of
> which, did anyone else see the Australian produced program "Beyond 2000" on
> the Discovery Channel that showed an electical-magnetic anti-gravity field
> and that it's first commercial use would be in shock absorbers for cars?
>
> Have fun!
>
>    =-Kathy->
Kathy. I don't think the idea about the shock absorbers is so
far-fetched. Mostly because I had the same idea once myself.
The ticket is electro-magnetic, not anti-gravity.
 We have in the modern world something known as a super-conducter,
a substance that conducts electricity with no resistance.
This substance can be used to create elctro-magnets of incredible
intensity. The japanese have already constructed a train that uses, I
believe, a super-conducting mag-lev(magnetic levitation).
Be careful when you say anti-gravity, though. This mag-lev is
as much anti-gravity as a plane, or yourself, when you carry
something across a room.


Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:11602 sci.skeptic:35290
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!crcnis1.unl.edu!wupost!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!cleveland.Freenet.Edu!cc203
From: [e-mail] (David R. Stepien)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Question for John Winston
Date: 3 Dec 1992 21:23:44 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (David R. Stepien)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, [e-mail] (Denise Solis) says:

>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail]
>(David R. Stepien) writes:
>>
>>To John Winston:
>>Please post an answer to this question:
>>
>>.....stuff deleted........
>>My question is:
>>
>>What is the psychic/spiritual effect upon a person who manages to foster
>>significant hostility towards himself amongst a large group of people?
>>
>>....more stuff deleted..........................
>>David
>
>
>When are you guys going to get a clue?
>You can't control another person. I swear, I get more tired of your
>constant bitching than I do John's posts. Just put his id in a kill
>file and be done with it.
>
>He is going to do what he wants to do and there's nothing anyone can
>do about it. Many have tried so give up already!
>
>Besides, he is not responsible for your anger or any other emotion for
>that matter, you are. He does not have to accept any bad energy from
>anyone. But no doubt , like his posts, you will continue to send it.

I think you have misread my intentions in posting this question.  I
personally harbor no ill will towards John.  I am just very curious
about his feelings on this question, and would like to hear what he
thinks about it.  Reread my original post.  It's not a flame, nor is it
an attempt to get John to change his behavior.  It is a question,
designed to bring to his attention a concept that he may not have
thought of before.

And John, I'm still very anxious to hear your thoughts on this....

David
Xref: icaen alt.conspiracy:20403 sci.skeptic:35301 alt.alien.visitors:11603
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!uunet!mcsun!sun4nl!hacktic!blackhl!stycx!peter
From: [e-mail] (Author)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs & Jimmy Carter
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 92 08:53:03 PST
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: River of Doom. Running through Central Holland
Lines: 50

>
> I certainly hope that you aren't putting any credibility into anything
> that William Milton Cooper has put out..it's just sheer Bullshit.

To be honest, I don't consider the 'Cooper' story very likely, however to
say that it is 'sheer Bullshit' is taking the thing to another extreme. I
will have to ask you than to proof that. Personally I believe that in
order to come to conclusion, you will have to take an open minded
approach and avoid preconceptions.

>
> Jimmy Carter's "UFO" turns out to have been Venus.
This is very well possible, however explainations given are not allways
corresponding to the fact. I have no reason to doubt the conclusion that
the UFO was in fact Venus, but at the same time my own father , who
happens to be an airline captain with 15.000 flight hours, had a UFO
sighting over France, both vizual as on radar, which was explained as
being a weather balloon. In hs opinion , if that thing was a weather
balloon, than we really would have a monumental miracle, thing thing was
moving at at an estimated speed in the range mag 2 to 2.5. This is not to
say thatthis UFO would be something fitting in Cooper's picture, but what
can be concluded is that, for some reason, it seems to be opportune to
supply nonsencial explainations. At a later stage he did try to obtain
more relevant information, which however never materialized. What I mean
to say by this is that explainations provided are not allways conclusive.

>
> Now if you wanna know about real UFO's..talk to Northrup or Lockheed
> people out around Techachapi, Calif :-)
>
Could you give me a taste of what I could expect from that?

Forgive me for being hardheaded, but I really think that it is unwise to
jump to conclusions, it is not all that long ago that the suggestion that
we will be flying arround in airplanes would have been considered
bullshit. What about the existance of bacteria, there was a time not ong
ago that a suggestion to there existance would have been considered
absurd.

It maybe would be a suggestion to do away with the Cooper issue by a
follow up in which you would supply conclusive evidence and/or arguments.

Greetings Peter, no flame intended.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
[e-mail] (5W)
Crawling out from the river of darkness into your own private pinball machine
Call STYCX  (Waffle 1.65) from 23:00 to 06:00  Central European Time
Number [phone]               Newkid Intown the nastiest Sysop arround
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!darwin.sura.net!wupost!uunet!mcsun!sun4nl!hacktic!blackhl!stycx!peter
From: [e-mail] (Author)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Pictures of Alien (Roswell)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 92 09:19:21 PST
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: River of Doom. Running through Central Holland
Lines: 16

> I just wanted to confirm that subject pictures match VERY closely
> the wax alien that was created for an exhibit here in Montreal, which
> lasted for several years into the 70's.
>

Thanks for the information, could you also clarify the circumstances
under which this wax alien was created, and how the pictures realte to
Prof. Zigel.

Greetings Peter

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
[e-mail] (5W)
Crawling out from the river of darkness into your own private pinball machine
Call STYCX  (Waffle 1.65) from 23:00 to 06:00  Central European Time
Number [phone]               Newkid Intown the nastiest Sysop arround
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13096 alt.alien.visitors:11605 sci.skeptic:35317
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Ugly Mermaid.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu,  3 Dec 92 18:37:11 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 11

Subject:Mermaids Are Ugly.
  Well folks it seems that the dolphin that we were quoting was not just
bumping his gums when he said that Mermaids weren't as pretty as people
though (or something to that effect). It seems that a man in Florida has
been raped by a mermaid (and that is really doing something because he was
wearing a wet suit). Don't laugh folks this could be serious.
Jack Stockton a 40 year old man from Australia came to South Floridan and go
raped by a big old ugly mermaid. Her hair looked like she hadn't gone to the
hair dresser for quite some time.  I'll keep you posted on any further
developments.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13098 alt.alien.visitors:11606 sci.skeptic:35325
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mnemosyne.cs.du.edu!nyx!mporter
From: [e-mail] (Mitchell Porter)
Subject: Re: The Extraterrestial Within.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (netnews admin account)
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 92 05:59:14 GMT
Lines: 21

[e-mail] writes:

>Subject: Have You Got An Extraterrestial In You?
>  Last year I went to a special lecture by a friend of Dr. David Kamatizer's
>here in the San Francisco Bay Area. This person's name is Arthur and we
>called him Art for short. Not that he is all that short and short is not his
>last name but anyway. Art is a person who had been educated and had worked

>  They found that not only misplaced entities were in a person but
>extraterrestial were in there also. They also found trolls in there. I got
>very excited when he said that because I had always thought of them just
>being under bridges talking to billygoats. One of my friends who is a fairly
>famous psychic had more than a thousand of them (more than a thousand
>entities and one troll) kicked out of him.
>End Part 1.
>John Winston.

I am really starting to believe that J_-_W might be a breaching experiment
by a bunch of ethnomethodologists, similar to what was alleged on
sci.skeptic a while ago.

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!teal!pershing
From: [e-mail] (Paul Pershing)
Subject: Re: About John Winston and others ...
Message-ID: <pershing.723448895@teal>
Originator: [e-mail]
Sender: [e-mail] (news)
Nntp-Posting-Host: teal.csn.org
Organization: Colorado SuperNet, Inc.
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1992 06:01:35 GMT
Lines: 48


Is there another newsgroup where people can discuss some of these issues
without having to wade through dozens of posts by folks who subscribe to
the National Enquirer/Weekly World News perspective?
It surely is possible to carry on intelligent conversation, but a lot of
this stuff is the sheerest nonsense. I keep looking for threads that
contain information indicating that people have inquired beyond "used
book stores," "Tabloids," "Brad Steiger books," "Chariots of the Gods,"
and so on. And sure, there are _some_ here. But they get pretty lost in
the swim of people who visit Venus when they "Astral Project," or who
get to drive space ships, etc., etc.
There are serious individuals who've done some fairly scholarly work
in many of these areas, but I never see any of it quoted here. How about
Robert Monroe, author of "Journeys out of the Body" and "Far Journeys"?
Here's a scientist/engineer who has researched and written about these
things at a level of sophistication a couple of orders of magnitude
beyond much of what floats through here.
Those readers who are asking for "astral projection instructions" should
take a look at the two Monroe books.
Anyone who has had an out-of-body experience (so-called "astral projection")
knows that the dimensions available to such travelers have little or
nothing to do with what we call "planets," and "Venus."
Out-of-body travel is by definition non-physical. Venus is very physical.
They don't mix.
Or, how about the Jane Roberts books? "The Nature of Personal Reality,"
"The Individual and the Nature of Mass Events," and "Unknown Reality,
Vols. I and II" are excellent sources of solid, scholarly information.

I recognize that a small group of people account for a large percent-
age of the silly stuff, but where do the serious folks discuss?

I mean no snobbery, or anything like that. I simply would like to
carry on discussions at a different level.

Any thoughts, or is there another group?

Paul

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
******** Paul Pershing, Editorial Design/Systems, Rocky Mountain News ********
**** 400 W. Colfax Ave. Denver 80204 [phone] * Disclaimers, etc. ****
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
******** Paul Pershing, Editorial Design/Systems, Rocky Mountain News ********
**** 400 W. Colfax Ave. Denver 80204 [phone] * Disclaimers, etc. ****
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!ohstpy!vancleef
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Question for the guru
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Dec 92 03:17:13 EST
Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Physics
Lines: 9

John,

What is the significance of Jan 11, 1994 (~6 PM EST)? (Shh those of you
who do...:)

-Garrett



Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!news.cso.uiuc.edu!osiris.cso.uiuc.edu!jcole
From: [e-mail] (Joan Cole)
Subject: The 12th Planet
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Net Noise owner)
Organization: US US Army Corps of Engieneers - Construction Eng Research Lab
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1992 10:05:14 GMT
Lines: 8

What is the debunking opinion about Zachariah Sitchin's books about the
supposed planet on a comet-like orbit which has a period of 3600 years?
Credibility wise, is this guy closer to Von Daniken in the quality of his
research or does anyone have any respect for his work?

Also, just because it is at least amusing (although I BELIEVE nothing), what
stars seem to be most mentioned by contactees or UFO literature?  e.g.
Sirius, the Pleiades, etc.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!usenet.ucs.indiana.edu!venus.iucf.indiana.edu!battin
From: [e-mail] (L GENE BATTIN)
Subject: Re: More Strange Facts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-4
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Nntp-Posting-Host: venus.iucf.indiana.edu
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: VENUS.IUCF.INDIANA.EDU
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution:  world
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1992 10:56:59 GMT
Lines: 31

In article <[e-mail]>,
[e-mail] (Sarvesh Mathur) writes...

>[e-mail] (Kumaran Santhanam) writes:

>> [about Vimanas...deleted]

>I have been studying this area a bit, and have obtained two books on the
>subject. Apparently some years back, some westerners came across some ancient
>texts from a South Indian Temple. They found several volumes.  One was on how
>to make Vimanhas (There are several types) and another on How to Fly one!
>
>One of the major problems with the the texts was the fact that many of the key
>words listed in the texts simply had no meaning to the translators. They were
>refering to objects/materials that nobody could decipher (The texts are in an
>old form of Sanskit).
>
>If there is any interest, I can get some more info from these books.

Could you post the names of the books and their ISBN numbers, or other
info on how to get them?

>
>--
>------------------------------------------------------
>Sarvesh Mathur
>[e-mail]

Gene Battin
[e-mail]
no .sig yet
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!sgiblab!rpal.rockwell.com!news.cs.indiana.edu!bsu-cs!news.nd.edu!mentor.cc.purdue.edu!noose.ecn.purdue.edu!ford.ecn.purdue.edu!unglenie
From: [e-mail] (Robert J Unglenieks)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Who believes?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Dec 92 05:19:30 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET news)
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Lines: 28

[e-mail] writes:
>To Rob u,

Yes?

>It is important to note the level of disbelief in
>simple minded unopen people.

Simple minded, unopen?  Why oughtta ring your .........   :-)

>Thanks for your input,

No problem.....

>And, Oh if you're not interested in a group like this, why read it?

Because rec.humor.funny ain't.  But seriously, with all the cover-ups and
conspiracy theories floating about, one can't but feel paranoid.  BTW,
you didn't put your name anywhere in the original post.  Who are you?
What do you hope to gain by tormenting me?  What do you know that all of
us should?   :-)

Rob U, (believes he is being filmed by mutant space aliens disguised as crows)
--
-       Rob Unglenieks             REAL race cars DON'T wear BOWTIES       -
-  "It is the foreign element that commits our crimes.   There is no       -
-   native criminal class except Congress."  [Samuel Langhorne Clemens]    -
-  (Don't look at me, I DIDN'T vote for Clinton.  Will Engineer For Food)  -
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13101 alt.alien.visitors:11612 sci.skeptic:35341
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Dolphins
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri,  4 Dec 92 06:30:16 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 7

Dear Humans: I just got a discouraging word from the mermaids about the
Miami Dolphins. It seems that these dolphins don't conduct themselves
in a gentleman like manner when they are around young attractive female
humans in bathing suits, but you know that information just comes from
a tabloid magazine and you can never believe anything they say (according
to my flamers).
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13102 alt.alien.visitors:11613
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri,  4 Dec 92 06:48:10 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 4

Dear Trip Takers: I attempted to read the book Communion but didn't make
it through. Maybe it made a few people think. I did write the gentleman
and he seems like a nice person.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13106 alt.alien.visitors:11614 sci.skeptic:35355
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!think.com!yale.edu!yale!actcnews!sun1x!scottb
From: [e-mail] (Scott Brewster)
Subject: Re: Ugly Mermaid.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: United Technologies Research Center
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1992 16:07:34 GMT
Lines: 6

My day wouldnt be complete without seeing a post from John Winston
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|       Scottb   [e-mail]   [e-mail]         |
|*****************************************************************************|
|Disclaimer:  I didn't do it!  Nobody saw me do it!  You can't prove anything |
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13110 alt.alien.visitors:11615 sci.skeptic:35359
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!wupost!cs.utexas.edu!sun-barr!ames!agate!stanford.edu!CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU!Xenon.Stanford.EDU!amorgan
From: [e-mail] (Crunchy Frog)
Subject: Re: Dolphins
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University.
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1992 17:31:08 GMT
Lines: 14

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>but you know that information just comes from
>a tabloid magazine and you can never believe anything they say (according
>to my flamers).

Not true!!!!!!!  I have just discovered an article in the Weekly World
News that was 100% true (I was amazed).  It was about Andrew Martinez
who, for those of you without a clue, is the Naked Guy at Berkeley.  Seems
he doesn't like wearing clothes and so he goes to school naked.  I think
this article is a first for this bastion of journalism.

>John Winston.

C Frog
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!news.claremont.edu!ucivax!megatek!max
From: [e-mail] (Max Elliot)
Subject: Re: Re: Finding a Guru
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1992 17:24:19 GMT
Lines: 21

From article <[e-mail]>, by [e-mail] (Mary Terhune):
> Re: Finding a Guru
>
> Someone asked about finding a Guru.
> I have found such a realized Guru, Her name
> is Gurumayi also known as Chidvilasananda.
> She is the successor to Baba Muktananda and
> the Siddha Yoga Lineage. She resides at
> her Ashram in South Fallsburg, NY 914-434-2000.
> I have known her for 6 years and you can know
> her greatness just by being in her Presence.
>
> Best,
> Mary

  Like Rod, and others have said very clearly:

    GET THIS STUFF OUT OF HERE!

  It belongs in alt.religion.* NOT in alt.alien.visitors
-Max
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!darwin.sura.net!sgiblab!rpal.rockwell.com!news.cs.indiana.edu!bsu-cs!news.nd.edu!mentor.cc.purdue.edu!noose.ecn.purdue.edu!dynamo.ecn.purdue.edu!wb9omc
From: [e-mail] (Duane P Mantick)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: MJ-12 4/4
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Dec 92 16:46:47 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET news)
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Lines: 19

[e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)  writes:

>>>> Continued from previous message

>---
> . SLMR 2.1a . I have a huge following...all my creditors!
>
    Are we missing something here?  Is there supposed to be part
of a document that for whatever reason did NOT make it......

    Now I have to ask the obvious question - you had said that you
were typing the document in to your own word processor.  I will play
the devil's advocate here and and ask what evidence you can present
that the document is real?

    After all, the bullshit quotient (BSQ) on this newsgroup appears
to be pretty high, i.e., more noise than facts.

Duane
Xref: icaen sci.skeptic:35382 sci.astro:23800 sci.space:38495 alt.alien.visitors:11618
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,sci.astro,sci.space,alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!news.Brown.EDU!noc.near.net!news.cs.brandeis.edu!binah.cc.brandeis.edu!CORBISIER
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: STS-48 and "SDI": Oberg vs. Hoagland
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Brandeis University
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1992 21:57:02 GMT
Lines: 10

James Oberg will _of course_ have an explanation.  He is a member of
PSICOP and works with Philip Klass, THE well-known skeptic "nothing-
is-real" other famous member of PSICOP.  I've been seeing more and
more things from Oberg lately, and I *never* see this connection
mentioned, only his NASA ties.

Robert Sheaffer may be "Skepticus Maximus", but for the rest of us
with open minds, please consider the source.

Barb
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13115 alt.alien.visitors:11619 sci.skeptic:35383
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!ogicse!flop.ENGR.ORST.EDU!gaia.ucs.orst.edu!umn.edu!lynx!apsicc.aps.edu!jim
From: [e-mail] (frost...)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Dolphins
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Dec 92 22:16:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: apsicc.4DEC199215161800
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Albuquerque Public Schools - Career Enrichment Center
Lines: 18
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes...
>Dear Humans: I just got a discouraging word from the mermaids about the
>Miami Dolphins. It seems that these dolphins don't conduct themselves
>in a gentleman like manner when they are around young attractive female
>humans in bathing suits, but you know that information just comes from
>a tabloid magazine and you can never believe anything they say (according
>to my flamers).
>John Winston.
======================================================================
John,
  I will give credit where credit is due. For once you have gave something
to chuckle about rather than passing by. There is hope for the world yet.
                            Jim
======================================================================
   We are rapidly ascending through prosperity to poverty...  Twain
                    Internet:    [e-mail]
       Albuquerque Public Schools - Instructional System Manager
======================================================================
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!news.cso.uiuc.edu!uxa.cso.uiuc.edu!jbh55289
From: [e-mail] (Josh 'K' Hopkins)
Subject: Re: The 12th Planet
References: <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Net Noise owner)
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1992 23:05:10 GMT
Lines: 13

[e-mail] (Joan Cole) writes:

>What is the debunking opinion about Zachariah Sitchin's books about the
>supposed planet on a comet-like orbit which has a period of 3600 years?
>Credibility wise, is this guy closer to Von Daniken in the quality of his
>research or does anyone have any respect for his work?

A 3600 year orbit suggests to me that it would go far enough away from the sun
to be unstable over a long period of time - i.e. other stars would have
significant effects on it's orbit.  Sounds like garbage to me.
--
Josh Hopkins                                          [e-mail]
                        Ho^3     !=L
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!psuvax1!psuvm!dms180
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1992 14:27:40 EST
From: <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: AAA NEWS
Lines: 1

WE'RE HERE!
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13116 alt.alien.visitors:11622 sci.skeptic:35386
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!darwin.sura.net!paladin.american.edu!news.univie.ac.at!hp4at!mcsun!sunic!ugle.unit.no!lise.unit.no!olavs
From: [e-mail] (Olav S|yseth)
Subject: Re: Dolphins
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (NetNews Administrator)
Organization: Norwegian Institute of Technology
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 92 23:17:10 GMT
Lines: 24

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Crunchy Frog) writes:
 > In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
 > >but you know that information just comes from
 > >a tabloid magazine and you can never believe anything they say (according
 > >to my flamers).
 >
 > Not true!!!!!!!  I have just discovered an article in the Weekly World
 > News that was 100% true (I was amazed).  It was about Andrew Martinez
 > who, for those of you without a clue, is the Naked Guy at Berkeley.  Seems
 > he doesn't like wearing clothes and so he goes to school naked.  I think
 > this article is a first for this bastion of journalism.
 >
 > >John Winston.
 >
 > C Frog

And Ive discovered an article in a magazine from Florida about a boy from Norway
who was born with a wooden leg, because his grandgrandgrandgrandfather had been
a pirate. And...well it wasn't true, but I kinda liked the story anyway. Im sure
John liked it. Maybe the grandgrandgrandgrandfather was from another planet, or
maybe he was an invisible fish ? Or maybe he just met a mermaid and...


                                                             OS
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13118 alt.alien.visitors:11623
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rphroy!caen!uwm.edu!rpi!gatech!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!agate!boulder!ucsu!cubldr.colorado.edu!crago_l
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Breaching Experiment was E.T. Within
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Dec 92 23:28:27 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Lines: 32
Nntp-Posting-Host: gold.colorado.edu

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Mitchell Porter) writes:
> [e-mail] writes:
>
>>Subject: Have You Got An Extraterrestial In You?
    (nonsensical blather deleted)
>>John Winston.

>
> I am really starting to believe that J_-_W might be a breaching experiment
> by a bunch of ethnomethodologists, similar to what was alleged on
> sci.skeptic a while ago.

Would you please say more about this idea. Give a detailed description of
what was alleged to have happened on sci.skeptic. Define exactly what
you mean by a *breaching* experiment. Define exactly what ethnomethodologists
are and what they aim to accomplish.

I ask all this because I also think something is definitely not what it
seems with Winston. People complain that a.a.v is trivial, a rehash of
supermarket tabloids, never a good thread going -- well that's quite
true. As far as I can determine, although there was always a good bit of
nonsence and juvenilia, there was also some interesting conversation.
THEN Winston began his barrage of posts, and gradually people with
something serious or informative to say dropped away.  It is also fairly
suspicious that no amount of flames, outrage, pleading, requests or
threats deters Winston in the least. Doesn't even ruffle him. With
calm persistence he has come to DOMINATE this newsgroup and to radically
re-shape it.

Shall we try and uncover the reason?

Regards, Lou
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!newsfeed.rice.edu!uw-beaver!news.u.washington.edu!raven.alaska.edu!news
From: [e-mail] (A figment of your imagination)
Subject: a.a.v. Frequently Asked Questions [1 of 4]
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: FAQ
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Nntp-Posting-Host: camelot.acf-lab.alaska.edu
Organization: University of Alaska Computer Network
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1992 01:07:32 GMT
Lines: 1053

              alt.alien.visitors Frequently Asked Questions
 This FAQ was last updated: 12/4/92 (New Additions: See 0.0: What's New)
       It currently takes up 151k (around 78 printed pages) in all
                       Line width is about 75 char.
                             (Part 1 of 4)


Hello and welcome to the alt.alien.visitors Frequently Asked Questions
posting. You may notice that this FAQ does not follow the standard question
asked, question answered format. The reason for this is that this FAQ is
designed to answer questions of people who are new to this Usenet discussion
group, and designed to be a useful reference source to those interested in
UFOlogy. I tried to keep a neutral stance when I researched the many of the
subjects covered in this FAQ; however you may also notice that some of the
material seem to be one-sided. When doing some of the research I may have
only used one book or source, thus (as you may have noticed) some authors
present information from only one point of view and this has a tendency to
be carried over to this FAQ, do to the lack of information on the subject
from another point of view.  (deep huh? well I hope to include more
viewpoints as this FAQ grows.) Also please when reading information from
this FAQ (as one poster put it) take everything you read here with a very
large grain of salt. (rock salt) Even I don't believe all the information
that I have included in this FAQ. As I said its mainly a reference to
help you out. If you find yourself interested in a UFO related subject,
**DO RESEARCH** read books on the subject, dig into both sides, write
letters to the authors and researchers.

I would once again like to thank everyone who contributed to the FAQ,
I would like to especially thank Steve Gamble and Jeff Papineau for the work
they put into the UFO Organizations section.


Contents
========

Main Sections
-------------
0.0: Whats new??
0.1: About alt.alien.visitors
0.2: Posting to alt.alien.visitors
0.3: People who post to alt.alien.visitors
0.4: Common Sense Guidelines
0.5: Example Posting

Terminology and Definitions Used in UFOlogy
-------------------------------------------
2.00: a.a.v.
2:01: Astronomical Units (A.U.)
2:02: Close Encounters (CE) & Visual Sightings
2:03: Marfa Lights
2:04: Men In Black (MIB)
2:05: Tectonic Strain Theory (TST)
2:06: UFOnauts
2:07: Unusual Ground Markings (UGM)
2:08: USAF
2:09: Zine

Alien Races
-----------
  NI: Andromedans
3.00: Arcturus
3.01: Aryans (Blondes)
3.02: Blues (Star Warriors)
  NI: Centaurian
3.03: Confederation of Humans
  NI: DALs
3.04: Greys
  NI: Lyrians
3.05: Orion Empire (Orion forces)
3.06: Pleiadians
3.07: Sirius
3.08: Reptoids
3.09: Vega

Abductions and Current Theories
------------------------------
4.00: About Abductions

UFOlogists
----------
5:00: Hopkins, Bud
5:01: Jacobs, Dr David
  NI: Howe, Linda Moulton
5:02: Klass, Philip J.
5:03: Marciniak, Barbara J.
5:04: Randles, Jenny
5:05: Stringfield, Leonard H.
5:06: Vallee, Jacques

UFO Projects & Theories & Controversies
----------------------------------------
6.00: Aurora Project or "deep black" projects
6.02: NASA Footage September 10th
6.03: Planetoid (Wormwood)
6.04: Project Blue Book
6.05: Roswell Crash Incident

UFO Movies, Documentaries and TV Programs
----------------------------------------
= 7.00: TV Programs
  NI: Arthur C. Clark's Mysterious World (Discovery channel)
7.01: E. T. Monitor (the Keystone Inspirational Network)
7.02: Hard Copy (??)
  NI: In Search Of (A&E)
7.04: National Geographic (PBS)
7.05: sightings (FOX)
7.07: Unsolved Mysteries (NBC)

= 7.08: UFO Videos, Movies, Documentaries
  NI: Bermuda Triangle, The
  NI: Chariots of the Gods
7.09: Close Up
7.10: Communion
  NI: Disappearance of Flight 412
  NI: Endangered Species
  NI: Hangar 18
  MD: Intruders
  NI: Mysteries from Beyond Earth
  NI; UFO
  NI: UFOs are Real
7.11: UFO Coverup Live
7.12: UFO Documentary
  MD: UFO Incident, The
7.13: UFO, The Films Prove It
  NI: Visitors from the Unknown

UFO Magazines and Publications (UFOzines)
-----------------------------------------
8.00: Circular, The
8.01: Cerealogist, The
8.02: Connecting Link Magazine
8.03: CONTINUUM
8.04: Crop Watcher, The
8.05: Earth,
8.06: Electronic Journal of the Astronomical Society of the Atlantic, The
8.07: Faithist Journal, The
8.08: Focus
8.09: Fortean Times,
8.10: Inner Light
8.11: International UFO Library Magazine
8.12: Magonia,
8.13: Orvotron Newsletter
8.14: Ovni Presence
8.15: Revelations of Awareness
8.16: Swamp Gas Journal
8.17: UFO Universe

UFO Book Publishers
-------------------
9.00: Advent Publishing Company
9.02: Arnerica West Publishers
9.03: Arcturus Book Service
9.04: Condor Books, Inc.
9.05: Document Research Services
9.06: Earth Star Publications
9.07: Eden Press
9.08: JACO Book Publishers
9.09: The Library of the New Essenes of Inyo
9.10: Luna Ventures
9.11: The Pleiades Project
9.12: UFO Audio-Video Clearing House
9.13: UFO Books
  NI: UFO NEWS CLIPPING SERVICE
9.14: UFO Photo Archives
9:15: Worldwide UFO Newsclipping Bureau and Public Information Center

Miscellaneous Information
-----------------------
10.00: A UFO Book List
10.01: alt.alien.visitors archives (back issues)
10.02: Big Foot (Sasquatch)
10.03: Free UFO Class
10.04: Freedom of Information
10.05: Hidden Ancient Ruins
10.06: Inter Library Loans (ILL)
10.07: NASA Shuttle Footage
10.08: UFO Related anonymous FTP Sites

UFO Organizations                                  * Assumed Acronym
------------------
11.00: Aerial Phenomenon Research: The Indiana Group  . . . . .*(APR)
11.02: Aetherius Society, The
11.03: Ancient Astronaut Society    . . . . . . . . . . . . . .*(AAS)
11.04: Ancient Truth Research Foundation    . . . . . . . . . .*(ATRF)
11.05: Awareness Reserch Foundation, Inc , The    . . . . . . .*(ARF)
11.06: Borderland Sciences Research Foundation  . . . . . . . . (BSRF)
11.07: British UFO Research Association . . . . . . . . . . . . (BUFORA)
11.08: California UFO     . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .*(CUFO)
   NI: Canadian UFO Research Network, The . . . . . . . . . . . (CUFORN)
11.09: Citizens Against UFO Secrecy   . . . . . . . . . . . . . (CAUS)
11.10: Committee for the Scientific Investigation of
       Claims of the Paranormal Contactee   . . . . . . . . . . (CSICOP)
11.11: Computer UFO Network   . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . (CUFON)
11.12: Contactee
11.13: Cosmic Awareness Communications  . . . . . . . . . . . .*(CAC)
11.14: CSETI                . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . (CSETI)
11.15: Delval UFO, Inc.
11.16: Fair Witness Project, Inc., The  . . . . . . . . . . . .*(FRP)
11.17: Federation, The
11.18: Flying Saucer Information Center . . . . . . . . . . . .*(FSIS)
11.19: Fortean Research Center, The
11.20: Fund for UFO Research, Inc.,The  . . . . . . . . . . . .*(FUFOR)
11.21: Gulf Breeze Skywatch   . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .*(GBS)
11.22: Inner-Peace Prosperity Network . . . . . . . . . . . . . (IPPN)
11.23: Intercontinental UF Galactic Spacecraft
       - Research and Analytic Network  . . . . . . . . . . . . (ICUFON)
11.24: International Committeee for UFO Research  . . . . . . . (ICUFOR)
11.25: International Fortean Organization   . . . . . . . . . . (INFO)
11.26: Intruders Foundation
11.27: Island Skywatch
11.28: J. Allen Hynek Center for UFO Studies  . . . . . . . . . (CUFOS)
11.29: Massachusetts Center for the study of
       Aerial Phenomena, The  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .*(MCSAP)
11.30: Multi-national Investigations Cooperative on
       Aerial Phenomena   . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . (MICAP)
11.31: MutuaL UFO Network   . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . (MUFON)
11.32: Mutual UFO Network of North Carolina, Inc.   . . . . . . (MUFON-NC)
11.33: National Investigations Committeee on UFOs  . . . . . . .(NICUFO)
11.34: National Sighting Research Center, The   . . . . . . . . (NSRC)
11.35: Nevada Aerial Research Group   . . . . . . . . . . . . . (NARG)
   NI: New Zealand UFO Studies Centre . . . . . . . . . . . . .*(NZUFOSC)
11.36: North American Circle  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .*(NAC)
11.37: North American Institute of Crop Circle Research   . . . (NAICCR)
11.38: Northamptonshire UFO Research Centre   . . . . . . . . . (NUFORC)
11.39: Northern UFO Network   . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . (NUFON)
11.40: Omega Communications
11.41: ParaNet (Paranormal Network) Information Service . . . . (PARANET)
11.42: Pennsylvania Association for the
       Study of the Unexplained . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . (PASU)
11.43: Pnet
11.44: Portland UFO Group, The  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . (PUFOG)
11.45: Roundtown UFO Society
11.46: Royal Priest Research  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .*(RPR)
11.47: Search for EXtraterrestrial Intelligence, The. . . . . . (SETI)
11.48: Sirian Rainbow Lodge   . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .*(SRL)
11.49: SKYNET
11.50: Socie'Te' Belge d'Etude des Phenomenes Spatiaux  . . . . (SOBEPS)
11.51: Society for Scientific Exploration   . . . . . . . . . . (SSE)
11.52: Society for the Investigation of the Unexplained, The  . (SITU)
11.53: System Ready
11.54: Transcendental Communications A Division of LAMAT Research
11.55: UFO Contact Center International   . . . . . . . . . . . (UFOCCI)
11.56: UFO Fllter Center  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . (UFOFC)
11.57: UFO Information Retrieval Center . . . . . . . . . . . . (UFOIRC)
11.58: UFO Investigators League . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . (UFOIL)
11.59: UFO, Paranormal and Conspiracy BBS, THE  . . . . . . . .*(UFOPCBBS)
11.60: UFO Reporting and Information Service. . . . . . . . . . (UFORIS)
   NI: UFO Research Australia . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . (UFORA)
11.61: UFO Study Group of Greater St. Louis
11.62: Ufology Research of Manitoba . . . . . . . . . . . . . . (UFOROM)
11.63: United Aerial Phenomena Agency . . . . . . . . . . . . . (UAPA)
11.64: Universal Articulate Interdimensional
       Understanding of Science (UNARIUS Academy of Sciences) . (UNARIUS)
11.65: Victorian U.F.O. Research Society Inc. . . . . . . . . . (VUFORS)

Disclaimer
----------

FAQ Requests
------------

FAQ Suggestions
---------------

=== 0.0: Whats New to the FAQ?
------------------------------
Please note that the newly added UFO magazines, organizations, book
publishers, etc... will be added to the list alphebetically but under
the headding of "NI" (New Information) until I get a chance to renumber
the index and the FAQ sections.

New informarion since last psoting:
Alien Races
 Updated the Source references by adding the authors of the publications:
    Bashar: Blueprint for Change
    The Prism of Lyra
    EL*AN*RA - The Healing Of Orion
    The Rays and the Initiations
UFO Book Publishers
   UFO NEWS CLIPPING SERVICE
UFO Organizations:
   Paranet [added affiliates]
   Mufon CES [see MUFON]
   The Canadian UFO Research Network (CUFORN)
   New Zealand UFO Studies Centre [address corection]

=== 0.1: About alt.alien.visitors
---------------------------------
alt.alien.visitor is a Usenet discussion group available through internet.
Currently a.a.v. is the only UFO related discussion group available on
Usenet. It caters to a wide rage of UFO related discussion from New Age
UFOlogy to Scientific UFOlogy. It currently receives around 36 posting
daily. All comments by me are indicated by the square brackets[]

=== 0.2: Posting to alt.alien.visitors
--------------------------------------
The following idea was suggested by [e-mail] and is
taken from [e-mail] (Melissa Wauford)'s "*** REC.ARTS.TV
POSTING GUIDELINES ***". I have adapted it to fit alt.alien.visitors, and
I feel that this is an excellent idea. I would recommend that you use this
system when posting to alt.alien.visitors.

alt.alien.visitors can be a controversial newsgroup with a wide variety
of discussed topics. A few topics may generate more traffic than others
and may contain subject matter related to UFOlogy that others wish to
filter out or concentrate upon.  In order to allow those who use rn or
some other method of pre-selecting articles to filter out (or save away)
postings about these heavy traffic subjects, an abbreviation scheme has
been created.  Please help out by starting your subject line with one of
the following abbreviations when posting about these topics. For example:

Subject: HOT - Dancing Aliens

or

Subject: OP: Grey finger snacks,(the trick is in how you fold them)

New abbreviations will be added as needed. Send suggestions directly to
me, and I'll add them to the list. Objections to any abbreviations should
probably be posted so that a consensus may be reached. Old abbreviations
will be deleted when no longer necessary.


Suggested Abbreviations by [e-mail]:
[revised by [e-mail]]

 ABD = Abduction information
  CE = Pertaining to UFO sightings and phenomena, Close Encounters,
       alien contact
  HA = Jokes & silliness
 HOT = Someone flaming someone else
 INV = Postings about alien invasions and conspiracies
MISC = Other categories like Atlantis/Mu/Spacemen, etc...
  NA = New Age stuff
NEWS = UFO related news, upcoming conventions.
  OP = Opinions
 REP = Repostings of older post like Lear, Cooper, etc..
 SCI = Scientific (preferably not pseudo) findings on UFO related issues


=== 0.3: People who post to alt.alien.visitors
----------------------------------------------
Readers and writers of a.a.v. are made up of:

A) People that have had contact.(Rarely post... obvious reasons)
B) Government paid disinformation people. (Poor to fair fiction)
C) Questioning/Inquiring minds (post questions, do research, answer
   questions)
D) Wanderers (Just passing through, make snide remarks if any)
E) A few who think aliens are out there but haven't/won't come here.
F) A few who think aliens are with us know but have had no contact.
G) Aliens (Grey, life sucking, invader of utopia)
H) Guys like me that just can't unsubscribe from this group. (It's just to
   much fun. Life looks darker and things aren't very clear. (guess this
   belongs in alt.consp....) But when all else falls through pull up a.a.v.
   and smile. Someone is always a little worse off than you are and here is
   one sure fired place to find one.
I) People who are not contactees, or new-agers, or sceptics, but are simply
   interested in high-strangeness phenomenon of all sorts (and generally try
   not to post snide comments or be simple minded!)
J) Humans from parallel dimensions who are trapped in ours. (Luckily, they
   come from one w/higher tech and brought their own spacefleet. Either
   that, or they have used our tech to build some things to fight the Grays
   with, say..Orion-class pulse engines (nuclear explosions for propulsion.))
   :)

[If anyone wishes to add their humor to this list please mail me,
 but keep it clean: [e-mail]]

Main Source: [e-mail] (Rick O'leary)
Other Contributors:
[e-mail] (Kellie Matthews)
[e-mail] (Patrick Chester)

== 0.4: Common Sense Guidelines
-------------------------------
When posting to any Usenet group please follow these general guidelines.

(1)  Do not post on subjects that clearly unrelated to the newsgroup.
     Take them to the appropriate news group for discussion.

     Example: Discussion of abortion, gun control, politics and other
     strictly non related UFO should not be posted on this news group.

(2)  Do not completely repost others peoples postings and then write your
     opinion about it. Selectively edit the the post to get the information
     you need from it to make your point. The standard symbol used to show
     information from another post is the ">".

     Example of what not to do: Repost a long section of material quoted
     from a previous article, followed by "I agree" or words to that
     effect.

== 0.5: Example Posting
-----------------------
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
From: [e-mail] (John Doe)
Subject: OP: Roswell Incident
Date: Fri, 31 Apr 1992 16:54:39 GMT

In article <1597O38cc.040316.26314>[e-mail] (Ima Lier)
writes:

>.. it was in 1936 when the UFO crashed at Roswell ...
>Plus there were no witnesses!! Not a single person could be found
>to bring forth testimony.

According to my sources it happened in 1947 and lots of people saw it.
How can you say... [Etc.]
 -JD

===Terminology and Definitions Used in UFOlogy
----------------------------------------------

2.00: Astronomical Units (A.U.)
------------------------------
An A.U. is a measurement of space. One A.U. is the average distance of the
earth from the sun, about 150 million km.

2.01: a.a.v.
------------
alt.alien.visitors One of the many Usenet discussion groups.

2:02: Close Encounters (CE) & Visual Sightings
----------------------------------------------
NL (nocturnal light)
   A simple visual sighting of a unidentified flying light seen at night.

ND (nocturnal disc)
   A simple visual sighting of a unidentified flying extended or structured
   light source seen at night.

DD (daylight disc)
   A simple visual sighting of a UFO seen during the day.

Close Encounters of the first kind (CE1, CEI)
   As first defined by Hynek, a CE1 is an observation of a UFO within 150
   yards.

Close Encounters of the second kind (CE2, CEII)
    The finding of physical evidence that a alien craft or race exists.
    Example: A burn where the craft has landed or the finding of material
    of unknown makeup.

Close Encounters of the third kind (CE3, CEIII)
    A visual sighting of an alien being or race.

Close Encounters of the forth kind (CE4, CEIV)
    An abduction of an individual by an alien being or race.


Close Encounters of the fifth kind (CE5, CEV)
    A direct contact or communication with alien being or race.
    Example: Billie Meier with the Pleiadians, U.S.Govt. with the
    Greys, or channeling.

Main Source:
[e-mail] (Janet Smith)
[e-mail] (Chris Rutkowski)

2:03: Marfa Lights
------------------
Marfa lights  are balls of lights that appear, change different colors
and dance around in the air.  These lights where named after the town
that they have been appearing in, Marfa Texas. They have also been sited
in other areas. Some theories as to what they are include Ball lighting,
Car headlights, and Alien space ships. The last current sighting I'm
aware of was Marfa Texas on September 1 1992.

Main Source: Sightings, FOX Network airdate September 25, 1992

2:03: Men In Black (MIB)
------------------------
These are a group of individuals who are said to wear black suits and
drive and fly around in unmarked black cars and helicopters.  They go
about  threatening people who have claimed to have seen UFOs into not
talking about what they witnessed.

The very first occurrence of MIB was traced to a man named Albert K.
Bender.  He was the editor of a flying saucer publication called the
"Space Review" In the October 1953 issue he placed an announcement
stating that he had come across information that would solve the flying
saucer mystery but they could not print it because they were ordered not
to.  They then ended the announcement warning others in saucer work to be
"very cautious"  they then stopped their publications. Later in an
interview Bender stated that "three men wearing dark suits" had ordered
him to stop publishing flying saucer material, and  that he had complied
with the order because he had been "scared to death" of them. He later
published a book called "Flying Saucers and the Three Men in Black"

Mains Source: "A Review of MIBS (Men In Black) : A History" ParaNet File
Number: 00171 Published 1991 by ParaNet Information Service

Also see: Flying Saucers and the Three Men in Black by Albert K. Bender

2:05: Tectonic Strain Theory (TST)
----------------------------------
A theory of electromagnetic effects upon the human brain and/or the
physical environment, such that all Forteana including UFOs, ghosts, ESP,
sasquatch, and religious fervour can be explained as being caused by
seismic activity generating electromagnetic radiation which in turn makes
people think they are witnesses to an anomalous event. Alternatively, the
EMM radiation can luminesce so that it appears as a UFO.  Chief
proponent: Michael Persinger. A variant is the "Earth Lights" hypothesis
described by Paul Devereux.

Main Source: [e-mail] (Chris Rutkowski)

UFO
------
Unidentified Flying Object. Official term used by the Air Force.

2:06: UFOnauts
--------------
A term used by the UFO community in reference to the alien abductors or
extraterrestrials.

2:07: Unusual Ground Markings (UGM)
-----------------------------------
A broad term which includes crop circles, "tripod marks", saucer nests,
burn marks, etc.

Main Source: [e-mail] (Chris Rutkowski)

2:08: USAF
----------
United States Air Force

2:09: Zine
----------
magazine or newsletter pertaining to a specific subject.
circlezine - Crop Circle publication
   ufozine - UFO publication


=== Alien Races
---------------------
These are often talked about in books, Publcations and on this discussion
group.

NI: Andromedans
---------------
These are a non-physical race of purely awesome ancient angelic beings from
the Andromeda galaxy. They ultimately are the spiritual force behind the
Ashtar command and are the leaders behind the Pleiadians and our whole
human branch of evolution! Not only that, but they are the guiding power
behind at least one other completely different branch of evolution: The
Cygnusian races - quiet, slimy, amphibian like creatures who come from
planets in the constellation Cygnus. Again, the way the Andromeda galaxy
beings are helping the beings in our own Milky Way galaxy grow, is a
macrocosmic example of how the Pleiadians civilization is helping our Earth
civilization grow.

Source:
Information given by [e-mail] (Arbaline)
UFO Contact from the Pleiades, By Wendelle Stevens

3.00: Arcturus
--------------
Members of Confederations of Humans [will do more research later]
The Arcturians are a very spiritual race that lives in a universe or
reality of pure love. There seems to be a gateway of some sorts at
this planet which transmits higher energies to our dimensional
universe.

Main Sources:
A Cosmic Awareness Channel from "Revelations of Awareness" Issue # 371
Information given by [e-mail] (Arbaline)
The Prism of Lyra [see section 11.46: Royal Priest Research]

3.01: Aryans (Blondes)
----------------------
Blond Nordic Humanoids who work with the greys. Said to be captured by
the Reptoids and also have implants. They are said to have a tendency to
switch their loyalties between the Reptoids and the Confederations of
Humans.

Main Sources: A Cosmic Awareness Channel from "Revelations of Awareness"
   Issue # 371

3.02: Bllues (Star Warriors)
----------------------------
The Blues are said to have translucent skin, large almond shaped eyes and
small of stature. The main issue of their teaching was PURSUE YOUR
PASSION, follow your own way, do your own thing, don't be pressured into
being anything but what and who you are.

The information about the Blues comes from Robert Morningsky a
Hopi/Apache dancer. According to Morningsky the first alien contact
started about 1947 - 1948 with the Greys contacting the U.S. Government
to form a treaty with them. Another body of Aliens arrived, called the
Blues. The Blues advised the government not to deal with the greys saying
it would only lead to disaster. They told the U.S. to follow your own
path. They said they would would teach with peace and harmony if men
would disarm and listen. The military said no deal. So they left, but a
few decided to remain and stayed in Northern Mexico and Arizona and made
a treaty with the Hopi Indians. These Aliens are known by the Hopi as
Star Warriors. The greys started monitoring the Blues. So the Blues had
to flee the reservation and go into hiding, a few of the Elders went with
them.

The Hopi legend is that there were two races, the children of the feather
who came from the skies, and the children of the reptile who came from
under the earth. The children of the reptile chased the Hopi Indians out
of the earth, these evil under-grounders were also called two hearts.

Main Source: Post from: [e-mail] (Don Allen) "FILE: Star
  Warriors",Forwarded from "contact" by Sande Van der Straten, to Cathy
  Emerson, Dated 23 Aug 1992, 19:29

Also See: American Indian Magic by Brad Steiger

NI: Centaurian
--------------
These are blond nordic types who come from Alpha Centauri. They like the
Pleiadians seek to help us grow spiritually, but they don't take as active
a role as the other races, although they do and have made contacts with
select people on Earth.

Main Source:
Information given by [e-mail] (Arbaline)
UFO Contact from the Pleiades, By Wendelle Stevens

3.03: Confederation of Humans (Intergalactic Confederation)
-----------------------------------------------------------
This is more often referred to as the "Intergalactic Confederation",
headed by the Ashtar Command. It consists of an organization of alien
groups born out of positive energy, that are helping the human race along
and desire to protect them.  Includes: Vega, Arcturus, Sirius, Pleiades,
Lyrians, DALs and Centaurians.

Main Sources:
A Cosmic Awareness Channel from "Revelations of Awareness" Issue # 371
[e-mail] (Arbaline)
The Prism of Lyra [see section 11.46: Royal Priest Research]
UFO Contact from the Pleiades, By Wendelle Stevens

NI: DALs
--------
This is a race of nordic types who come from what is called the
DAL Universe. They are a branch of the Lyrians and are very advanced
technically and spiritually; about 300-1000 years ahead of the
Pleiadians. They are helping the Pleiadians in a very similar manner
to which the Pleiadians are helping us.

Main Source:
Information given by [e-mail] (Arbaline)
UFO Contact from the Pleiades, By Wendelle Stevens

3.04: Greys
-----------
This is the most commonly identified alien race in UFOlogy. Their are
many different views, stories and theories regarding them ranging from
the different New Age views to the different Scientific, and conspiracy
views.

Greys as presented by the Scientific Community:
 The Greys are the most commonly described race by abduction victims. In
this view they are considered a race with an unknown motives, and
agendas. They seem to be abducting, studying, testing and using various
individuals for their one unclear reasons. [See: Abductions and Current
Theories]

Greys as presented by the New Age Movement:
  In the new age movement the Greys are often associated as an evil race,
or a race with bad energy. They are often associated with many other
races, such as the Reptoids and their motives are known.

Greys as presented by Different Conspiracy Theories
  The different conspiracy theories are often a mix of the scientific and
new age views. The standard conspiracy base states that the Greys crashed
one or more of their space ships and they were found by the U.S.
Government. The Government them makes a secret treaty with the Greys
allowing them to abduct humans in exchange for their technology. The
conspiracy theories often end with the Greys not keeping their part of
the deal. [I will try and include some of the different conspiracy
theories when I have more time to research them in detail]

Their are descriptions of several types of Greys: they are all humanoid in
appearance, a head, main body, two arms, hands, legs, and feet.

1: The most commonly seen grey is around two to four feet tall, very
slender and delicate looking, small beings and light weight, extremely
penetrating black slanted eyes with no pupils, almost vestigial mouth
and nose, a very large head with a pointed chin. The skin color varies
from dark grey to light grey, tan to tanish grey, white to pale white.
They have no hair on their bodies.

2: Another commonly seen Grey is described similarly as above, except
their usually six inches taller, and seem to give the orders. A variation
of this same described individual is: same as above except eyes like big
black buttons and are rounded.

3: Another type of Grey are the small robot like beings, stocky and
little, with smooth rounded hat on top, with dark deep set holes for eyes
and a round O shaped mouth, square breastplate with concentric circles on
it, smell like burnt match heads, mushroom grey skin. These Greys are
often said to act like security guards.

Other variations are described as Reptilian like with claws an preying
mantis like. There have also been many report of cross breeds that are
not exactly human and not exactly Greys.

Main Sources:
Secret Life, by David M. Jacobs
Communion, by Whitley Strieber
A Cosmic Awareness Channel from "Revelations of Awareness" Issue # 371

Also See:
Missing Time, by Budd Hopkins
Intruders, by Budd Hopkins
Bashar: Blueprint for Change. A Message from Our Future, by Darryl Anka
   and Luana Ewing

NI: Lyrians
-----------
This is the very ancient parent race from which our entire
branch of human or humanoid races emerged, including all the nordic
types, the Orions, and even the Greys. Quite warlike in the infancy of
their civilization, they gradually improved their ways and are now
technically and spiritually at about the level of the Pleiadians.

Main Source:
Information given by [e-mail] (Arbaline)
The Prism of Lyra [see section 11.46: Royal Priest Research]
UFO Contact from the Pleiades, By Wendelle Stevens

3.05: Orion Empire (Orion forces)
---------------------------------
The "Orions" are made up of two opposed races. The "Council of Light" was
one based at the star system Betelgeuse, and the equally powerful evil
Orions were based at the star system Rigel. The Orions took over lots of
planets back in our galaxy's less spiritual days but were always balanced
by the Intergalactic Confederation.

The conquering part of Orion empire was defeated 200,000 years ago
by the Intergalactic Confederation, and they haven't been a threat to
Earth since. They are presently getting ready to "transform into the
4th dimension" just as we of Earth are. In fact, some people on Earth
are reincarnated Orions who are here to integrate their negativity and
hence allow both our worlds to ascend.

Main Sources:
Information given by [e-mail] (Arbaline)
EL*AN*RA: the Healing of Orion, By Solara Antara Amaa-Ra
Bashar: Blueprint for Change. A Message from Our Future, by Darryl Anka
   and Luana Ewing
The Prism of Lyra [see section 11.46: Royal Priest Research]

3.06: Pleiadians
----------------
The Pleiadians are a collective of extraterrestrials from the star system
Pleiades. They are also from various times in our future, starting from
500 years from now to millions of years from now. The Pleiadian culture
is ancient and was "seeded" from another universe of love long before
Earth was created. They have formed a tremendous society which operates
with love, with ideas and ideals that we are yet unfamiliar with.

The Pleiadians started a project to contact and inspire earth humans to
take back their power and create a better reality for themselves. They
are here as ambassadors from another universe to help Earth through her
transition from the third dimension to the fourth dimension and to assist
each of us in our personal endeavors of awakening, remembering and
knowing. As this project has become more successful, more ETs have
joined the group, some from other systems. The group later changed its
name from Pleiadians to the Pleiadians Plus.

The Pleiadians say that their reasons for contacting us is that there is
a chance of tyranny in the future and they are coming back to inspire us
as much as possible so we will take charge of creating our own reality
and change the future.
   They teach a very empowering form of personal and social metaphysics,
with love and clarity. The Pleiadians speak as a collective and there are
no individuals identified. They do not appear in physical form although
they say they can. They say it is safer to come through the channel,  and
it does not attract as much attention.


Billie Meier's Contact from the Pleiades
Billie Meier was contacted over 130 times between 1976 and 1982 by a
female named Samjese who said she was from the star system Pleiades. She
was the first to telepathically contact Meier and tell him where to go
for the first physical contact. Meier had indepth conversations with
Samjese. The contact notes are published in following four books and are
out of print:

UFO ... Contact from the Pleiades Vol I & II Photo Journals (Vol I is in
        its second printing.)
UFO ... Contact from the Pleiades Prilimary Investigation Report
UFO ... Contact from the Pleiades Supplementary Investigation Report
Message From the Pleiades Vol 1 & 2 Light Years

There are 4 videos available on the Pleiades case.
Contact        $59.
The Beamship Trilogy   $99.
The videos are available from:
Genesis III Publishing, P.O. Drawer JJ, Munds Park, AZ 86017
[Also see: The Pleiades Project]

There is also a book available called Bringers of the Dawn - Teachings
from the Pleiadians by Barbara Marciniak.  They also have 2 to 3 hundred
tapes available.

Main source:
Information given by [e-mail]
Connecting Link Magazine Pleiadian article, Channeled by Barbara Marciniak

Also See:
Out on a Limb, by Shirley MacLaine

3.07: Sirius
-------------
Members of Confederations of Humans [will do more research later]
They are a watery, dreamy race who are basically an evolved version of
dolphins and whales, somewhat. They are said to live in the Christ
consciousness, and are in a solar system very linked with our own in a
psychic manner. They too play a role in helping Earth, but they are doing
it from a more subtle standpoint, like through the cetaceans in our seas.

Source:

Main Source:
A Cosmic Awareness Channel from "Revelations of Awareness" Issue # 371
Information given by [e-mail] (Arbaline)
The Rays and the Initiations, by Alice Bailey

Also See: The Prism of Lyra [see section 11.46: Royal Priest Research]

3.08: Reptoids
---------------
A reptilian race from Draco bent on conquest,  They are said to be
controling the greys by means of an implant, the same one that the gray
are implanting into humans.  They are also said to be the master minds
behind the abduction plans. Their master plan involves using the newly
created 'Half-breeds' with implants to defeat the Confederations of
Humans. The Reptoids also use humans as food.  [Does this remind you of
the movie V?]

Main Source: A Cosmic Awareness Channel from "Revelations of Awareness"
  Issue # 371


3.09: Vega
----------
Members of Confederations of Humans [will do more research later]

Main Source: A Cosmic Awareness Channel from "Revelations of Awareness"
  Issue # 371


=== Abductions and Current Theories
-----------------------------------
4.00: About Abductions
----------------------
There are many people who believe they have been abducted by UFOnauts.
These abduction victims often experience memory loss and "missing time".
some of them have been able to recall their abductions from memory and
others have recalled their abductions by the aid of hypnosis. Often these
encounters involve being taken aboard an alien craft and examined by the
UFOnauts and put through a variety of physical and mental procedures.
Then the individuals are returned. Many of the abduction victims has
shown signs of Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder.

Some of the major researchers who have studied the abduction field
include Budd Hopkins, David Jacobs, John Mach, Philip Klass, and Jenny
Randles.

There are several groups with distinct opinions. The dyed-in-the-wool
Skeptics, who who don't believe it. Others who are passing no verdict, but
are still examining  the evidence. Those who believe due to the
similarities of the abduction testimonies. Those who claim to have
information through means such as channeling. Those who claim to have had
first-person experiences, with automatic conscious recall. Those who
claim to have had first-person experiences, with recall under hypnotic
regression.

The opinions of some skeptics such as Klass believe that the hypnotists
themselves are leading the abduction victims unknowingly into believing
that they have had an abduction experience. The skeptics believe that the
the media has been saturated so much with the abduction material that when
people having nightmares or people who believe that they have experienced
the "missing time" are put under hypnosis, they draw upon what they have
seen in the media to fulfill the expectations of the hypnotist and
causes themselves to be put trough the trauma for that reason. They say
the nightmares are often caused by the sleeping disorder narcolepsy, and
the "missing time" is not an uncommon experience and is caused when the
mind is preoccupied by other matters. They often give the advice to go to
clinical doctors, and not to contact an abductionist.

Other researchers such as Jacobs and Hopkins believe that there is
something physical causing the abduction experiences. Hobkins has stated
that he believes that the abduction are real and that the recounts of the
abductions are to similar to each other to be anything but the truth.
Jacobs takes a slightly different approach, he has been categorizing all
the accounts and trying to find patterns in the testimonies. Through this
method he come up with new more indepth theories regarding the
abductions. [I'll give these late when I have time]

The Channelers believe that the abductions are part of a battle between
good energy forces and evil energy forces. [See Reptoids, Greys and
Pleiadians]

There people on the net who believe they have had personal experiences
with Alien contacts or abductions. Some have posted accounts of their
experiences. Many others decline to post due to attacks by skeptics.

There has been possible material evidence of UFOs or Alien contacts. There
are abundant material traces, even excepting those confiscated by the
military. Material traces include burned grass and earth where UFOs have
landed, UFOs shown on radar tapes, UFOs on film and in photos. Bodily
traces on abductees include scoop-marks in the flesh, incisions, burns,
apparent radiation exposure, bruises, inflammation, etc. Whether any of
these is considered *evidential*, however, is a subjective value call.

For anyone who is interested in abduction help call:

  Bill Knell
  Director of Island Skywatch
  [phone] (New York)

He can get you in touch with the right people in your area and has a lot
of videos, tapes and books on UFOs and abductions. He is also a very
experienced researcher/investigator.

Main Sources:
UFO-Abductions: A Dangerous Game, by Philip Klass
Secret Life, by David M. Jacobs
Communion, by Whitley Strieber
[e-mail] (Denise Solis)
A Cosmic Awareness Channel from "Revelations of Awareness" Issue # 371

Also See:
Missing Time, by Budd Hopkins
Intruders, by Budd Hopkins
Alien Abductions: Mystery Solved by Jenny Randiles


=== UFOlogists
--------------
5:00: Hopkins, Bud
------------------
Bud Hopkins graduated from Oberlin college. He is also a painter and
sculptor. He has been investigating UFO report for the lat 12 years.

Bud Hopkins c/o Random House
201 E. 50th Street
New York, NY 10022

5:01: Jacobs, Dr David
----------------------
David Jacobs is an Associate Professor of History at temple University.
He has worked with over 300 UFO abduction witnesses. He works closely
with a number of other abduction researchers including Budd Hopkins.
Dr. Jacobs moderates an abduction conference on ParaNet, and is accessible
via their dial-up BBS node (303-431-8797) or on Internet through a list
server. [See ParaNet]

Dr. David Jacobs
Department of History
Temple University
Philadelphia, Pa 19122

NI: Howe, Linda Moulton
-----------------------
Producer, director, writer, etc. of films, videos, and scripts, including
"A Strange Harvest", a documentary on the 'cattle mutilation' phenomenon
(and a book, "An Alien Harvest"). She is the "concept" person for the Fox
TV show "Sightings" (credited at the end of each show.)

Linda Moulton Howe Productions
3208 East Fremont Dr.
Littleton, CO 80122

Main Source: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)

5:02: Klass, Philip J.
----------------------
For thirty-five years a senior editor with Aviation Week and Space
Technology magazine, is recognized as the world's leading skeptical
authority in Unidentified Flying Objects and has written three books on
the subject. Klass, a graduate electrical engineer, is a founding Fellow
of the Committeee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the
Paranormal. He was honored in 1973 for his accuracy as a techjournalist
by being named a Fellow at the Institute of Electrical and Electronics
Engineers.

Main Source: The about the author paragraph inUFO-Abductions: A Dangerous
  Game, by Philip Klass, C1988

5:03: Marciniak, Barbara J.
---------------------------
Barbara J. Marciniak is an internationally known trance channel from
North Carolina. She began channeling in 1988. The strength and purity of
the message she is bringing very quickly captured the hearts of many
seekers looking to be all that they can be. Barbara has channeled at
various Expos and for groups across the United States, in Peru and in
Germany.

You may contact Barbara at:
Bold Connections                Connecting Link Magazine
P. O. Box 6521,                 9392 Whitneyville Rd.
Raleigh, NC 27628.              Alto, MI. 49302-9694

5:04: Randles, Jenny
--------------------
Jenny Randles
37 Hasthbank Road
Stockport, Cheshire SK3 0UP

5.05: Stringfield, Leonard H.
-----------------------------
Long-time researcher and author of a number of UFO crash/retrieval
books, which provide excellent source material. Formerly Director of
International UFO research organization CRIFO (Civilian Research,
Interplanetary Objects - a large UFO organization of the mid-1950's)
1953-57, published "Orbit", the CRIFO monthly newsletter. Served in USAAC
5th AF in intellence and counter-intelligence unit in WWII
(Pacific theater); worked cooperatively with USAF (as civilian) in 1954-57
to screen UFO reports in Ohio/Kentucky/Indiana area; Public Relations
Advisor for NICAP, 1957-1970; served on MUFON board of directors, currently
Research Specialist (crash/retrieval) for MUFON.

Leonard H. Stringfield
4412 Grove Avenue
Cincinnati, Ohio 45227, USA

Main Source: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)

5.06: Vallee, Jacques
---------------------
Longtime UFO researcher, prolific writer, and computer scientist. He was
a leader of (and later retreated from) the "fairie" explainations of UFO's
(that is, that whatever they were, they were from the same source as
legends about supernatural, "magical" creatures) in the 1970's, and has
more recently written that extraterrestrial-only explainations for UFO's may
be biasing inquiry.

Vallee, Jacques
1550 California St. #6L
San Franciscom CA 94109

Main Source: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)

                            Bitnet: Fsdlk@alaska
( FAQ Part 1 of 4)        Internet: [e-mail]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~  ...........  .......          .           .       .            ~
~  .            .      .        Nasha tai no kasei!         .   . ~
~  ...          .......           .            .                  ~
~  .            .               Prosperity and Long Life, To You. ~
~  .... xisting . hantom              .             .             ~
~                             .                            .      ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!newsfeed.rice.edu!uw-beaver!news.u.washington.edu!raven.alaska.edu!news
From: [e-mail] (A figment of your imagination)
Subject: a.a.v. Frequently Asked Questions [2 of 4]
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: FAQ
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Nntp-Posting-Host: camelot.acf-lab.alaska.edu
Organization: University of Alaska Computer Network
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1992 01:08:48 GMT
Lines: 1012

              alt.alien.visitors Frequently Asked Questions
 This FAQ was last updated: 12/4/92 (New Additions: See 0.0: What's New)
       It currently takes up 151k (around 78 printed pages) in all
                       Line width is about 75 char.
                             (Part 2 of 4)


=== UFO Projects & Theories & Controversies
--------------------------------------------

6.00: Aurora Project or "deep black" projects
----------------------------------------------
The "Black Projects" are governmental projects that are considered
technological secrets. These can range from laser and particle beams to
top secret aircraft. The "Aurora Project" is the name given to one of
these types of projects by the industry experts involving two new types
of reported aircraft. These aircraft where observed in the south west US
and are said to have been developed at highly classified government
facilities in the Nevada desert. There are two types of advanced aircraft
reported.

One is nick named the "Pulser" aircraft. There have been many sights of
this aircraft by several different  witnesses. When sighted it has
repetitively been described as "A high-speed aircraft characterized by a
very loud, deep, rumbling engine noise (1-2 Hz pulse rate) reminiscent of
heavy-lift rockets."  The smoke trail of the aircraft is described as
being segmented and in a linked sausage shape. (Or another good example
would be to look at one side of your coat zipper, un-zipped, with the
teeth facing you) It is also described as a high-altitude aircraft that
crossed the sky at extremely high speeds. Both ground based and airborne
observers have reported it to be seen flying at altitudes above 50,000
ft. observers have reported see the aircraft as a single bright light
that seldom changed direction, however speed changes where observed. One
observer estimated that it covered 350 miles in 6 minutes. (3500
miles/hr)


This this aircraft may indeed exist. There has been research in to what
are called Pulsed Detonation Engines (PED's) also refereed to as Pulsed
Detonation Wave Engines. These are different type of engine than the
pulse jet engines, which is already publicly know, and has been tested in
aircraft. The PED's are said to be in laboratory and computer analysis
level of development (reported oct of 91) The PED's exhaust emission
produces smoke trails that closely match the pulser aircraft. Simulations
of theses engines are said to be able to propel large aircraft in the
"Mach 0.2-3.0 flight regime"

How PED's work: PED's use shock waves created in a detonation to compress
the fuel-oxidizer mixture prior to combustion. A cylinder chamber
designed to support the detonation is constructed with a flat forward end
which makes up the thrust wall. Air along with fuel is fed into the
engine from behind the thrust-wall. The detonation wave created travels
forward to the thrust wall at about Mach 4 and compresses the fuel-air
mixture, promotes supersonic combustion and causes a pressure rise in the
engine. The wave then strikes the thrust wall and rebounds accelerating
the combustion products towards the nozzle. Some of the products are
ejected by the wave to the outside air-stream through the air inlet
openings creating a toroidal vortex out side the engine. Then the cycle
repeats.

The said advantages of this type of engine are:
* Theoretically a higher fuel efficiency than a "constant pressure engine"
* Engines can be produced in many sizes and thrust outputs from a few
  inches in diameter at a thrust of several pounds to  larger one that can
  output in the thousands of pounds range.
* They have high thrust to weight ratio (ie.lighter engine, more thrust)
* They are mechanically simple, and have few moving parts.
* They could operate in or out of the atmosphere using fuel oxidizers.


There is very little information on the other reported aircraft. It is
reported as "A triangular-shaped, quiet aircraft". This craft has been
seen by many observers and flying with several F-117 stealth aircraft.


Main Sources:
Aviation Week & Space Technologies, (Oct 1, 90 pp20-23) &
  (oct 28, 91 pp68-69)

Also See:
Aviation Week & Space Technologies [please note: one of these dates is a
December 24, 1990 pg. 41-44         couple days off, on the actual
June 20,     1991 pg. 20-21         magazine date.]
March 9,     1992 pg. 66-67
May 11,      1992 pg. 62-63

6.02: NASA Footage September 12th 1992
--------------------------------------
Space Ice or an alien craft dodging a missile. That's the big debate on
the footage taken by an unmanned camera on the 13th flight of OV-103
space shuttle Discovery. One sidec says that it is space Ice accelerated
by the space shuttles thrusters. The other side says the excelleration of
some the objects don't follow the correct paths don't match physics. They
speculate its a alien craft dodging a Starwars missile.

Main source: Sightings, FOX Network, airdate September 25, 1992

6.03: Planetoid (Wormwood)
--------------------------
Beyond Pluto astronomers believe there is a ring of ice chunks circling
the solar system 37 to 59 A.U. from the sun. They have called the ice
belt the Kuiper belt. Beyond that astronomers say there is a similarly
composed Oort cloud which forms a sphere around our planetary system that
stretches two light years in distance. A tiny red spot of light was
recorded in hawaii in October of 92,  which is thought to be the first
component of the Kuiper belt ever observed. The object was named 1992 QB1.
It is about 200 km across and 5.1 billion km away from the sun (41.2
a.u.). The object is fairly red, suggesting a surface rich in organics.
The current position is, for 0h UT on September 15, 1992:  0h 00.09+0d
01'.7 (2000.0). It is moving retrograde at only 3" per hour. David Jewitt
and Jane Luu discovered it using the University of Hawaii's 2.2-meter
telescope on Mauna Kea.  They have been searching for such an object for
the last five years. The first images were secured August 30, but just as
with the discovery of Pluto in 1930 the discovery was kept "under wraps"
for awhile to allow a better assessment. Jewitt believes it to be one of
the larger members of the Kuiper belt. Jewitt says that it will take two
months to confirm the object.

Another theory involving the planetoid comes to us from channelers. It is
a hollowed out body that was moved here by the Reptoids, in order to
transport an army of Grays or Reptoids. [sorry, I'm not sure which, I
haven't had a chance to research this in-depth] It is now  parked outside
the orbit of Pluto.  It is currently being used as a base by the
Reptoids.

Then there is also the theory that the planetoid may be the star that is
mentioned in the Bible as "Wormwood" (also translated as "bitterness");
which when the "third angel" in the book of Revelation blew his trumpet,
fell to the earth and poisoned one third of the earths waters.  Another
interesting fact is that "chernobyl" (as in the Nuclear power plant in
"Russia" that had a meltdown) in Ukranian also means Wormwood.

Main Source:
"Beyond Pluto" by MichaaelD. Lemonick, p. 59, Time Magazine Sep. 28, 92
"#Object beyond Pluto", Compuserve article #110734 S14/News/Current Events
  by Roger Sinnott, 14-Sep-92
A Cosmic Awareness Channel from "Revelations of Awareness" Issue # 371
Bible,  Revelation chapter 8 Verses 10 & 11


6.04: Project Blue Book
-----------------------
On Sep 30 ,1947  Lt General Twining of ACM expressed his opinion that there
was sufficient substance in reports to warrant a study on UFOs. On Dec.
23,1947 Project Sign was established to collect, collate, evaluate, and
disseminate all information concerning UFO sightings and phenomena.
Project sign completed it evaluations in Feb of 1949 and concluded "No
definite and conclusive evidence is yet available that would prove or
disprove the existence of these UFOs as real aircraft of unknown and
unconventional configuration." Project Sign was changed to Project Grudge
on Dec.16, 1948. Project Grudge recommended that the investigation and
study of UFO reports be reduce in scope. In early 1950 UFO reports by the
public increased. This prompted Project Grudge to be changed to Project
Blue Book in march of 1952.

Project Blue Book goals were to find out:
1: To find an explanation for all the reported sighting of UFO's.
2: To determine if the UFO posed any security threat to the United States.
3: To determine if UFO's exhibit any advanced technology which the U.S.
   could Utilize.

When the project ended the Air Force concluded:
1: There is no evidence that any UFOs are "extraterrestrial vehicles"
2: No UFO has ever given any indication of a threat to the national
   security.
3: There is no evidence that UFO's represent technological developments
   or principals beyond present-day scientific knowledge.

You can get the project Blue Book papers from Any Federal Repository which
has copies of National Archives material (there are various scattered
around the country). Or, you can go to the National Archives in
Washington, DC. They're on microfilm, like the Census records that
genealogists use.

[I will finish researching this later, I had to return the book before I
 was done. :-(]

Main Source:
Project Blue Book: The Top Secret UFO Findings Revealed,
  By Brad Steiger, 1976
[e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer)

6.05: Roswell Crash Incident
----------------------------
  The Roswell Incident started with sightings of UFOs on June 24, 1947. In
July 2,  of the sane year Mac Brazel heard a loud crash.  The next day he
went out Horseback riding with a neighbor and came upon a field with
debris scattered about.

 The debris field was 3/4 of a mile long and 300 feet wide. It was
oriented in a northwest to southeast direction.  There was a gouge in the
northwest side of the debris field that was 500 feet long and 10 feet
wide.  The debris on the field mostly consisted of I-beams and parchment
like, paper thin pieces of metal material. The material was very light in
weight, a dull gray in color, and most pieces were 6 to 7 inches in
length.  Some pieces that were even thinner that paper could not be
broken in half,  cut or burned.
  Mac Brazel collected several pieces of the debris and went back to his
ranch.  On July 6,  Brazel went into Roswell to report what he had seen
and to show a piece of the debris to sheriff Wilcox. The sheriff decided
to call the local air base. During this time Frank Joyce called in from
the local radio station to see if anything newsworthy was happening
around town. Brazel gave him the information about what he had found.
  Major Jesse A. Marcel and a few other military personal arrived from
the base only a few minutes after the sheriff had finished  talking to
the people at the base.  Brazel and the military personal left and went
back to the Ranch. The next morning (July 7) they went to the crash
sight. The military retrieved some of the debris and returned to Roswell.
  On July 8, the military came back and sealed off the area, They took
Brazel into custody.  That same day they found a second crash sight two
and 1/2 miles southeast of the first.  Barney Barnett and 4
archaeologists  had stumbled onto the new sight a few minutes before the
military had gotten there.  At the sight was found a "pretty good sized
metallic dull gray object" and 4 small alien bodies. They were 4 to 5
feet tall,  with large pair shaped heads, small bodies and skinny arms
and legs.  They had two large eyes,  no ears and no hair. Their skin was
pinkish grey and leathery.  They were wearing a one piece grey suits. The
civilians were escorted out of the area when the military arrived.

  On July 9th the military escorted Brazel to the radio station , there
he told Frank Joyce that he saw a weather balloon. He left again with the
military and didn't get back to his ranch until around July 15.  Later
when asked about what had happened Brazel said he had given a oath and
could not talk about it.
  The Incident remained closed and the public and  UFO research
organizations at large accepted the weather balloon story until 1970 when
Jesse A.  Marcel broke the silence and told his part in the story.

Main source: UFO Crash at Roswell by Kevin D. Randle & Donald R. Schmitt
  Published 1991 by Avon Books

=== UFO Movies, Documentaries and TV Programs
--------------------------------------------
= 7.00: TV Programs
------------
7.01: E. T. Monitor (the Keystone Inspirational Network)
--------------------------------------------------------
   - A program that originates from Pennsylvania, it has a pre-recorded
and a live section. The person who runs it sells packets of books by
mail-order. He likes to think that he is presenting irrefutable proof not
only of the existence of UFOs but also of the Government's Conspiracy to
keep them secret and frequently features people like Randall Terry.

Main Source: [e-mail]

NI: Arthur C. Clark's Mysterious World (Discovery channel)
----------------------------------------------------------
   - an early 1980's half-hour show hosted by the man himself. The show
was similar to "In Search Of", in theme and content, a few of which covered
UFO's.

Main Source: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)

7.02: Hard Copy (??)
--------------------
   - Belgian UFO's, 1990
   - more European

NI: In Search Of (A&E)
----------------------
  - a late 1970's half-hour show, currently in syndication
(on A&E, right now), hosted by Leonard Nimoy.  Each show took on a
different unusual phenomenon, and gave a thumbnail sketch of the story of
it.  The show's format was decidedly non-sceptical, with lines like "could
it be that <'believer' side>?"  and "some believe that <believer side>".
UFO-related shows include "UFO", "UFO Australia", "UFO Captives", "Earth
Visitors", and several others, along with various non-UFO things -- Loch
Ness Monster, Bigfoot, Killer Bees, Atlantis, Reincarnation, DB Cooper,
Shroud of Turin, and some fairly mundane things - Tornados, Volcanos, and
Earthquakes.  The Fox network show "Sightings" is very similar in theme,
but often devotes significantly less time to a given subject.

Main Source: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)

7.04: National Geographic (PBS)
-------------------------------
   - English Crop Circles, 1991

7.05: sightings (FOX)
---------------------
   - Crop circles 1992
   - Mexico video Sightings, Sept 11, 1992
   - NASA Shuttle UFO/(debated Ice chunk), July? 1992

7.07: Unsolved Mysteries (NBC)
------------------------------
   - Eupen, Belgium UFO, 1991
   - Cash/Landrum UFO, 1990
   - 1965 Kecksburg, PA  UFO, 1990
   - Widthville, W VA UFO, 1992

= 7.08: UFO Videos, Movies, Documentaries
-----------------------------------------
NI: The Bermuda Triangle
------------------------
   - (1975) Based on Charles Berlitz's book of the same name. Something of
a rambling discourse, which touches on the Bermuda Triangle, UFO's, the
"Philadelphia Experiment".  (A later "Nova" episode of the same name
answers a lot of the BT stuff.)

Main Source: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)

NI: Chariots of the Gods
------------------------
   - (1974) based on Eric von Daniken's book.

Main Source: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)

7.09: Close Up
--------------
    - interview w/ two Rhode Island UFO enthusiasts 885-0366, 1992
      MUFON Box 1122, Davisville, RI  02854

7.10: Communion
---------------
    -Based off the book Communion bu Whitley Strieber

NI: Disappearance of Flight 412
-------------------------------
   - (1974, non-documentary) Glenn Ford as a USAF officer who stumbles
across a secret USAF project to study UFO's.

Main Source: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)

NI: Endangered Species
----------------------
  - (1982, non-documentary) Robert Urich stumbles across the
cattle-mutilation phenomenon, and a secret government unit studying it.

Main Source: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)

NI: Hangar 18
-------------
  - (1980, non-documentary) NASA studies a crashed UFO at "Hangar 18",
which malign governmental forces wish to destroy.

Main Source: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)

MD: Intruders
---------------
    - CBS miniseries June? 1992,
      Based off Budd Hopkins book Intruders

NI: Mysteries from Beyond Earth
-------------------------------
   - (1975) rambling documentary of UFOs, witchcraft, Bermuda Triangle,
psychic healing, etc...

Main Source: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)

NI: UFO
-------
    - (1956) the first UFO documentary, including real UFO footage from
the early 1950's.  A good introduction into the UFO phenomenon up until
that time.

Main Source: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)

NI: UFOs are Real
-----------------
    - (1979) Well-above-average compilation of UFO film and photos, along
with some additional information, e.g. the 1973 Coyne helicopter encounter,
Gordon Cooper's letter to the UN in 1973, Billy Meier, and interviews with
Wendell Stevens, Bruce Macabee, Stanton Friedman, Ted Phillips, Jesse Marcel
(and the major points of the Roswell crash), Travis Walton, Betty Hill,
Marjorie Fish, and James Harder.

Main Source: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)

7.11: UFO Coverup Live
----------------------
    - UFO film from Guatemala, 1988
      (Note from [e-mail]: most convincing footage I've seen)

7.12: UFO Documentary
---------------------
    - Jesse Marcel interview, 1982

MD: UFO Incident, The
-----------------------
   - NBC Oct 20, 1975,
   - the Betty Hill abduction story Based on the book "Interrupted
Journey: Two lost hours aboard a flying saucer" by John Fuller

7.13: UFO, The Films Prove It
-----------------------------
    -A melange of television tapes, 1992

NI: Visitors from the Unknown
-----------------------------
    - (1991) A CBS documentary on several abductions, including the 1975
Travis Walton case, the 1980 Alan Godfrey case, and the 1988 John Salter
(and his son) case.

Main Source: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)

=== UFO Magazines and Publications (UFOzines)
---------------------------------------------
[I will include the magazines from the UFO groups later]

8.00: The Circular
------------------
58 Kings Rd., West
End, Woking, Surrey GU24 9LW, England

8.01: The Cerealogist
---------------------
20 Paul St., Frome, Somerset,
BA11 1DX, England

8.02: Connecting Link Magazine
------------------------------
Connecting Link Magazine
9392 Whitneyville Rd.
Alto, MI. 49302-9694

8.03: CONTINUUM
---------------
The official news magazine for ParaNet and MICAP. It is published quarterly
and provides thought-provoking information and articles written by leading
UFOlogists. This magazine provides global insight and reflects material
carried over the world-wide ParaNet Information Service network.
Subscriptions are $18.00/year and are available by sending checks for U.S.
funds to:  ParaNet, Box 172, Wheat Ridge, CO  80034-0172.

8.04: The Crop Watcher
---------------------
3 Selborne Court, Tavistock Close, Romsey, Hampshire, SO517TY, England

8.05: Earth
-----------
61 Ran elagh, Ave., Bradford, BD10 0HF, UK.

8.06: The Electronic Journal of the Astronomical Society of the Atlantic
------------------------------------------------------------------------
  The Electronic Journal of the Astronomical Society of the Atlantic
(EJASA) is published monthly by the Astronomical Society of the Atlantic,
Incorporated.  The ASA is a non-profit organization dedicated to the
advancement of amateur and professional astronomy and space exploration,
as well as the social and educational needs of its members.

ASA membership application is open to all with an interest in astronomy
and space exploration.  Members receive the Journal of the ASA  and the
Astronomical League's REFLECTOR magazine. Members may also purchase
discount subscriptions to ASTRONOMY and SKY & TELESCOPE magazines.

For information on membership, you may contact the Society at any of the
following addresses:

Astronomical Society of the Atlantic (ASA)
c/o Center for High Angular Resolution Astronomy (CHARA)
Georgia State University (GSU)
Atlanta, Georgia  30303, U.S.A.
Phone: [phone] leave your address and/or receive the latest
                      Society news.
Internet:
[e-mail]

Modem:
ASA BBS: [phone], 300/1200/2400 Baud.

Back issues of the EJASA are also available from anonymous FTP at:
chara.gsu.edu (131.96.5.29)

8.07: The Faithist Journal
--------------------------
Kosmon Publishing
2324 Suffock Avenue
Kingman, Arizona 86401
 C. Benfield (President)
Kasandra Kares (Editor)
Publication is The Faithist Journal
Founded  in 1970
A non-profit organization which publishes "The Faithist Journal"
(Bi-Monthly), magazines and books dealing with New Age topics, including
UFOs.

8.08: Focus
-----------
William L. Moore Publications & Research
See: Fair Witness Project, Inc.
4219 West Olive Avenue Suite #247
Burbank, California 91505
Williarn L. Moore
213-463-0542
Publishing entity for Antares Publishing, The Fair Witness Project, Inc.,
and "Focus" magazine (which specializes in UFOs, New Age, Metaphysical, and
Occult research; offers a substantial listing of books, government document
reprints, papers, pamphlets, back issues of George Van Tassel's
"Proceedings of the College of Universal Wisdom" newsletter, research
files, folios, back issues of "Focus" (the Fair Witness Project
newsletter), cassette tapes, and video tapes for sale.Discounts on various
items are available to booksellers and other qualifie buyers."Focus"
subscribers are entitled to a 25% discount on all items

8.09: Fortean Times
-------------------
1 Shoebury Road, London E6 2AQ UK.

8.10: Inner Light
-----------------
Inner Light Publications
Box 753 New Brunswick,
New Jersey 08903 Publications
Timothy Green Beckley (Publisher & Editor)
Publication is Inner Light
A diverse entity which publishes numerous UFO-related books, periodicals,
tapes, etc., "UFO Review" magazine and the monthly "Inner Light" magazine;
also sponsors numerous UFO conferences and symposiums throughout the United
States.

8.11: International UFO Library Magazine
----------------------------------------
11684 Ventura Blvd. #708 Studio City, CA 91604.

8.12: Magonia
-------------
5 James Terrace, London SW14 8HB, UK.

8.13: Orvotron Newsletter
-------------------------
orvotron bi-monthly newsletter
Solinus and Kortron

We are  pleased to send a "Love Copy" of the most current newsletter to
anyone you think will be interested. Just pass your friend's name and
address on to us and we will mail out the issue compliments of you. Back
issues contain much information which is still relevant and may provide
some clarity on subjects discussed in subsequent newsletters. Love
donations (which should be made payable to Judith A. Wells) are greatly
appreciated and go to Spirit's work to create Heaven on Earth.

 A subscription also entitles you to log-on the Spirit Bulletin Board
Service, a computer/modem system with files  on alternate energy,
UFO/extraterrestrial happenings, politics, science, medical information,
the conspiracy and much more. The files are updated frequently and we
encourage you to use and contribute to this "library at your fingertips".
You may access this information 24 hours a day by calling via computer
1-704-297-5973.

For a year's subscription (six bimonthly issues) and userstatus on
Spirit BBS please send $30.00 (USA) or $40.00 (all other countries)
in check or money order (no cash please) made payable to:

Judith A. Wells           Phone   - [phone]
Route 2, Box 309B         FidoNet - 1:379/703
Vilas, NC  28692          BBS     - 704-297-5973

       ,
8.14: Ovni Presence
-------------------
CP 342, CH-1800, Vevey 1, Switzerland.

8.15: Revelations of Awareness
------------------------------
"Revelations of Awareness" published by Cosmic Awareness Communications
(CAC).

Revelations of Awareness is a Newsletter that covers UFO as they relate
to channeling and the New Age movement.  All the information given in the
newsletter is information recorded from channeling sessions. The format
of of the news letter begins with a question asked of the Cosmic
Awareness, then replies are given by the Awareness through the rest of
the news letter starting out with the phrase "This Awareness indicates..."

The following Statement appears at the top of every Issue:

Cosmic Awareness is the force that expressed Itself through Jesus of
Nazareth, the Buddha, Krishna, Mohammed, Edgar Cayce and other great
avatars who served as 'Channels' for the 'Heavenly Father' and who speaks
again today as the world begins to enter the 'New Age' of spiritual
consciousness and awareness. Since 1963 Cosmic Awareness has been
communicating through carefully trained channels. This information is for
those who desire to help in bringing in the new age. Throughout the
thousands of 'Readings' given through these various channels, Cosmic
Awareness tells us not to believe anything, but to question, explore,
doubt, and discover for yourself, through your own channel what is the
truth. Cosmic Awareness will only 'indicate' and 'suggest'. Neither C.A.C
or any of the Interpreters is responsible for anything Cosmic Awareness
states in any of these readings, nor does C.A.C. or the Interpreters
necessarily agree with the statements of Cosmic Awareness. The
interpreters interpret the energies as they see them in trance levels and
are not personally responsible for what is said. This is entirely the
responsibility of the editor. Members of C.A.C. are invited to send in
questions of general interest to ask Awareness for possible publication
in this newsletter.

Paul Shockley, Interpreter.

The Revelations of Awareness comes out every three weeks The memberships
which are available (using the Honer system) are:
Limited Income $30 per year   $9 quarterly
Individual     $42 per year   $12 quarterly
Family         $52 per year   $20 quarterly
Contributing   $77 per year   $25 quarterly
Sponsoring     $144 per year  $40 quarterly
Benefactor     $500 per year  $150 quarterly
Patron         $1000 per year $250 quarterly
Endowing       $5000 per year $1500 quarterly

Outside USA Add $15.00 per year to cover postage (including Canada)
To send off for information about the C.A.C. or to subscribe to their
news letter write to: Cosmic Awareness Communications
                      P.O. Box 115
                      Olympia, WA 98507

8.16: Swamp Gas Journal
-----------------------
The Swamp Gas Journal Covers a variety of scientific UFO related Phenomena.
It reviews articles, books and research publications put out by different
researchers and organizations.

The Swamp Gas Journal is free with limited distribution, but is available
primarily through zine exchanges, regularly contributing Fortean info, or
by providing two (2) International Postal Reply Coupons in lieu of a
subscription (to cover postage).

The Swamp Gas Journal is a ufozine published irregularly by:

Ufology Research of Manitoba
Box 1918
Winnipeg, Manitoba
Canada   R3C 3R2

The SGJ is also available on an experimental basis on internet by e-mail
to: [e-mail]

8.17: UFO Universe
------------------
GCR Plublishing Group, Inc.
1700 Broadway, 34th Floor
New York, New York 10019
Publishes "UFO Universe" magazine.
Global Communications Refer to: Inner Light Publications

=== UFO Book Publishers
-----------------------
9.00: Advent Publishing Company
-------------------------------
P.O. Box 3748
Carson City, NV  89702
Publish book and the Phenox Project Reports.

9.02: Arnerica West Publishers
------------------------------
P.O. Box 6451 Tehachapi, California 93582
George Green Telephone Number : 805-822-9655
Publishes a wide variety of books and tapes dealing with New Age subjects
and UFO phenomenon.

9.03: Arcturus Book Service
---------------------------
1443 S.E. Port St. Lucie Blvd.
Port St. Lucie, Florida 34952, USA
Robert Girard & Monica Williams-Girard

Arcturus Book Service Catalog
Maintains a listing of UFO-related books. Their goal is to provide a wide
selection of books relating to the study of unexplained phenomena. Arcturus
provides a publication; "Leading Edge, the bi-monthly newsletter of the
Nevada Aerial Research Group.
Subscriptions for monthly Arcturus Book Service Catalog available for $6.00
in the U.S.,
Canada, and Mexico; $12.00 in Europe and South America
Arcturus pays for UFO-related books, manuscripts and is interested in being
informed of all new titles released.

9.04: Condor Books, Inc.
------------------------
351 West 54th Street
New York, New York 10019
Al Weiss (Publisher)
212-586 -4432
Publishes numerous books dealing with the UFO phenomena. At one time,
Condor Books published "UFO Universe" magazine;"UFO Universe" is now
published by:
GCR Publishing Group, Inc.,
1700 Broadway, 34th Floor,
New York, New York 10019.

9.05: Document Research Services
--------------------------------
PO Box 10011
Berkeley,  Ca. 94709-5011

They provide declassified govt. documents and an index
of UFOs in the New York Times 1947-1987
Send SASE for a list of documents

9.06: Earth Star Publications
-----------------------------
P.O. Box 117
Paonia, Colorado 81428
Ann Ulrich (Editor & Publisher)
303-527-3257
The Star Beacon
A self-publishing service which will perforrn typesetting, layout,
printing, and shipping of self-published books for a one-time fee. After
initial fee is paid, the author keeps lOO% of any profits
generated from the book. Ann Ulrich is associated with the UFO Contact
Center International as one of its Associate Directors.

9.07: Eden Press
----------------
Box 399
Careywood, Idaho 83809
Desiree Eden
208-683-2439
The publishing arm of the Planetary Professional Citizens Committeee (PPCC),
which is no longer in existence due to the death of its Director, Jerome
Eden, in 1989. However, EDEN Press still pro- vides a wide range of books
dealing with the UFO phenomenon.

9.08: JACO Book Publishers
--------------------------
P.O. Box 3135
Prescott, Arizona 86302
John H. Andrews
602-778-0018
JACO Book Publishers provides many UFO and Extraterrestrial-related books.

9.09: The Library of the New Essenes of Inyo
--------------------------------------------
P.O. Box 257
June Lake, California 93529
71448-7405
Nicholas Faust (Curator)
Originally known as "The School of Thought" which had been started by Hope
Troxell in 1960. It's original focus was UFO literature, especially that
dealing with contactees. Hope Troxell died in 1979 and The School of
Thought closed in 1980.In 1980 became The Library of the New Essenes of
Inyo. It assumed Hope Troxell's UFO materials and continually added to it
over the years. The Library also sells copies of Hope Troxell's published
material.

9.10: Luna Ventures
-------------------
P.O. Box 398
Suisun, California 94585
Publishes the Luna Ventures Catalog" which is a comprehensive listing of
available newsletters, books, microfiche, magazines, etc. for sale. Luna
Ventures will also accept manuscripts for publication.

9.11: The Pleiades Project
--------------------------
P.O. Box 386 Atwood, Ca 92601
Randolph Winters :213-281-6282
Terra  (Contact)
Founded in: 1985
A one-man organization for the dissemination of the information received by
Billy Meier from his Pleiadian contacts. Mr. Meier receives messages from
his contacts of the Pleiades star formation. The Pleiades Project compiles
these messages and offers them in audio and video formats. "Contact Terra"
is a quarterly newsletter which contains updated information and news about
Mr. Meier's contacts.
The Meier Chronicles VHS/Beta - $59.00 (82 minutes)
The Movie Footage     VHS/Beta - $49.00 (1 hour)
The Metal Analysis     VHS/Beta - $39.00 each (45 minutes)
The Entire Trilogy - $99.00 (save $188.00)
Each audio cassette $20.00 plus  postage & handling

9.12: UFO Audio-Video Clearing House
------------------------------------
P.O. Box 342
Yucaipa, Ca]ifornia 92399-0342
David Aaron (Director)
714-795-3361
Founded on May 18, 1988 and1232 members.
Offers an updated listing of UFO radio & television programs on video and
audio tape, going back to 1954. Video tapes are offered in Beta and VHS
format. Over 50% of their available product is donated by members.

9.13: UFO Books
---------------
P.O. Box 1053 - 514 First Street Florence, Arizona 85232
Christine (Stevens) Cox
602-868-4273
Christine Cox distributes UFO-related books, some of which were written and
edited by Wendelle Stevens (See: UFO Photo Archives), who is her father.
UFO Books also provides periodic flyers which contain UFO-related books,
photos, and calendars for sale.


NI: UFO NEWS CLIPPING SERVICE
-----------------------------
UFO NEWS CLIPPING SERVICE
Route 1 - Box 220
Plumerville, Arkasas 72127

9.14: UFO Photo Archives
------------------------
P.O. Box 17206
Tucson, Arizona 85710
Wendelle C. Stevens
UFO Journal Of Facts
Offers UFO-related books, most of which concentrate on, and thoroughly
investigate, individual cases. UFO Photo Archives gears its material for
those who want more in-depth knowledge about individual cases instead of a
broad overview of many cases.
In addition to books, UFO Photo Archives also sells UFO calendars and
posters. All books, posters, and calendars are sold through mail order only
and must be prepaid, including postage.
Their publication, "UFO Journal Of Facts" is a new magazine, filled with
color pictures and reports, concentrating on factual UFO investigative
reporting.

9:15: Worldwide UFO Newsclipping Bureau and Public Information Center 955
West
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
Lancaster Road Suite 420
Orlando, Florida 32809
Provides a 16-20 page monthly report of worldwide UFO news clippings (all
foreign news stories are translated into English).
Subscription costs:
$24.95 /6 months $47.50/ one year
Special on Back Issues: all of 1988 for $39.95.
Besides the newsclipping service, Worldwide UFO also offers UFO-related
audio and video tapes (VHS format, approximately 2 hours in length) for
sale at the following prices:
Audio Tape - $ 4.00/ tape (buy two, get one free: no limit) Video Tape -
$20.00/ tape (buy two, get one free: no limit)

=== Miscellaneous Information
-----------------------------
10.00: alt.alien.visitors archives (back issues)
------------------------------------------------
Occasionally I have seen requests for information on past articles in
alt.alien.visitors. If you desire something, I have the entire newsgroup
archive back to July 13, 1992. I access it frequently. I have no way to
ftp it to another system for public access but would be glad to email
portions of it upon request. The responses are not guaranteed to be
correct or complete.

You can email me at [e-mail] and I will do my best.
[e-mail] (Gregg Brown)

10.01: A UFO Book List
-------------------------------
I'd like to take this opportunity to remind people of my UFO bibliography
file, and to solicit contributions and book comments for it.  The file
can be ftp'd from paul.rutgers.edu, directory pub/ufo, file
bibliography.Z (compressed format).  The file is organized by author, and
also again by date-of-publication, and also includes Keith Rowell's
excellent bibliography file (which is also worked into the above two
parts).  Many titles have comments from various people as to the value of
the book; I would like any comments on any of the books from anyone, and
also additional books for inclusion. Check out the UFO Bibliography that
you can ftp at:
  paul.rutgers.edu
  The file is pub/UFO/bibliography.Z It has books by author, a second
  listing by date, and also the names of prominent authors in the field.

For more information contact: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)


10.02: Big Foot (Sasquatch)
---------------------------
   Our research group is currently investigating reports and sightings of
the animal known as "Bigfoot" or "Sasquatch". If you or somebody you know
has had such a sighting, or come across what may be evidence supporting
the existence of such an animal, please get in contact with us in one of
the following formats:

o Leave a private message in electronic mail:
  [e-mail] (Thomas Hill)
o Call Thomas Hill at 216-362-6529.
o Or write:

  Thomas E. Hill
  16124 Richard Dr.
  Brook Park, OH 44142

 Contact with us can be totally anonymous if you wish. We are especially
interested in Ohio sightings but are by no means limited to
investigations in that state. Please, serious responses only.


10.03: Free UFO Class
---------------------
Penn State University has Free U classes that are offered to the public
at no charge!  They supply a classroom to those who wish to teach a
subject and the public may attend them for free. One of the classes
offered is a UFO class Organized and taught by Janet Smith, and Beth
Combs.

In the class they discuss every aspect of the UFO phenomenon such as the
Billie Meier investigation, government cover-ups, Zecharia Sitchin who
wrote the Earth Chronicles series, Mars probe, Mars Face and many other
topics. The class also offers guest speakers who have done UFO research
plus videos, movies and articles about various UFO phenomenon.

The classes are held every Monday in room 207 of Sackett Building at Penn
State University in State College, PA. The starting time is 7:00 pm, EDT
(soon to be EST) and they ends sometime after 9:00 pm. The class will be
held until December 7th. The class may continue after the holidays into
next semester, but that depends on our level of interest.

If someone has questions or would like to contribute to the group in some
way, (ie. guest speakers, movies, different types of information, etc.)
contact Janet Smith at [e-mail] or write to her at: 123
Ramblewood Road, Pennsylvania Furnace, PA 16865.  Home phone: (814)
237-6763, Work phone: [phone].

10.04: Freedom of Information
-----------------------------
In the US, you write to the agency you want to reach, addressed to
the "Freedom of Information Officer".  A list of agencies is available
from the US Government Printing Office. Their order number is:
202-783-3238

The "US Government Manual" (1991/92), price $23 (they take MC/Visa
orders over the phone).  They will also send you a catalog of all
manuals/documents available from the USGPO for free. Order at the same
number.  [I have more information on this, I will add it later.]

Main Source: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)

10.05: Hidden Ancient Ruins
---------------------------
The address is Mystic Mountain Adventures
Dept. 100 11142 Manhattan Avnue, Ste. 43
Manhattan Beach, CA 90266   Ph# [phone].

10.06: Inter Library Loans (ILL)
--------------------------------
If you would like to research an the various UFO topics mentioned in this
FAQ and you don't have a large bank account, go to your local library and
ask about the Inter Library Loan System. The ILL lets you check out books,
audio tapes, video tape, and get copies of magazine articles that your local
library might not have. In many cases there is no charge for using ILL, this
depend upon you local library. Almost all the book I have used to research
this FAQ were ordered through ILL. Check it out. :-)


10.07: NASA Shuttle Footage
---------------------------
NASA Select on Satcom 2, Transponder 13, carries the whole mission, live
and anybody with a satellite dish can tune in.  You can find the original
uplink and shuttle audio on Transponder 5. This is the raw video with
shuttle to ground audio communications on it.


10.08: UFO Related anonymous FTP Sites
---------------------------------------
[Also See: 10.00: A Complete UFO Book List]


phoenix UFO Pics
----------------
phoenix.oulu.fi (130.231.240.17)
In /pub/ufo_and_space_pics

NASA Pics Sites
----------------
NOTE: the material at these sites is exceedingly voluminous;
I'd strongly suggest just getting the CD-ROMs instead of attempting
to transfer scores of gigabytes of pix and other material.

To access the online catalog of NASA material, CD-ROMS, et cetera:

    telnet nssdca.gsfc.nasa.gov
    login as "NODIS"
    no password

Anonymous ftp sites (five):

nssdca.gsfc.nasa.gov [128.183.10.4]

    This is a VAX/VMS box, so you must ftp-login as "anonymous".  To get
    a dir listing into a file on your system:

    ftp> dir [...] file_on_your_system

vab02.larc.nasa.gov

    lots of stuff, including Aliens of all colors, and UFO pix (though
this
    seems to mirror a lot of what's at phoenix.oulu.fi and has some
    additional material).

ames.arc.nasa.gov

    online copies of what appears to be all NASA's CD-ROMs, and lots of
    GIFs, *.img and *.jpg from most (all?) space missions since Apollo.

iris1.ucis.dal.ca

    dunno; it appears to be down today (Saturday, 18-July-1992).

ummts.cc.umich.edu
      |
 {changed to}
      |
      V
archive.umich.edu

    apparently popular (and, hence, slow).  Is supposed to have many
    NASA and Voyager data files.

Main Source: [e-mail] (Thad Floryan)

                            Bitnet: Fsdlk@alaska
( FAQ Part 2 of 4)        Internet: [e-mail]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~  ...........  .......          .           .       .            ~
~  .            .      .        Nasha tai no kasei!         .   . ~
~  ...          .......           .            .                  ~
~  .            .               Prosperity and Long Life, To You. ~
~  .... xisting . hantom              .             .             ~
~                             .                            .      ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!wupost!newsfeed.rice.edu!uw-beaver!news.u.washington.edu!raven.alaska.edu!news
From: [e-mail] (A figment of your imagination)
Subject: a.a.v. Frequently Asked Questions [3 of 4]
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: FAQ
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Nntp-Posting-Host: camelot.acf-lab.alaska.edu
Organization: University of Alaska Computer Network
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1992 01:09:37 GMT
Lines: 720

              alt.alien.visitors Frequently Asked Questions
 This FAQ was last updated: 12/4/92 (New Additions: See 0.0: What's New)
       It currently takes up 151k (around 78 printed pages) in all
                       Line width is about 75 char.
                             (Part 3 of 4)


=== UFO Organizations
------------------

11.00: Aerial Phenomenon Research: The Indiana Group
----------------------------------------------------
18 Davis Drive Mt. Vernon, Indiana 47620
Francis L. Ridge (Director)
812-838-3120 / 812-838-9843
Publishers of : Indiana UFO Newsletter
Founded in 1986
A statewide organization which attempts to immediately respond to UFO
sightings

11.01: The Aetherius Society
----------------------------
6202 Afton Place Hollywood,
California 90028-8298
Detroit Branch
17670 West 12 Mile Road
Southfield, Michigan 48076
313-552-9153 / 313-552-9159
Reverend Lesley Young
(General Committeee) : 213~65-9652/ 213~67-HEAL (4325)
Publishers of : The Aetherius Society Journal : Cosmic Voice
Founded in 1960
The Hollywood, California office is the American headquarters for The
Society which was founded in England in 1955. In the US, the Society was
incorporated in 1960 as a non-profit religious, scientific, and educational
organization.
The Society is a metaphysical, channeling organization whose
founder/president, Sir George King, is a Western Master of Yoga and who has
been in contact with Extraterrestrial Intelligences for over 35 years. He
acts as a channel for the dissemination of Higher Wisdom from These
Sources.
The Society's objective is to explain the presence of UFOs around the Earth
and to make known knowledge given to their president by Advanced Beings who
reside in this Solar System. This information is disseminated through
books, pamphlets, cassettes and albums and two newsletters, "The Aetherius
Society Journal" and "Cosmic Voice".
Also, study courses in: "Metaphysical and Occult Sciences" and "Cosmic
Revelations" to further spread the word and to explain the cosmic
significance of messages received from the Advanced Beings. Regular
meetings at the U.S. and England headquarters as well as by associated
branches throughout the world.
Prayer Circles are organized during a Spiritual Push (or Magnetization
Period) at different holy mountain sites, when the giant Interplanetary
Spacecraft is brought into Earth's orbit by a Cosmic Master. Helpers who
attend these Power Circles send out the Spiritual energies from this Cosmic
Master to help mankind.

11.02: Ancient Astronaut Society
--------------------------------
1921 St. Johns Avenue
Highland Park, Illinois 60035-3105
Gene M. Phillips (Founder) :708-295-8899
Publication is Ancient Skies
Founded in 1973. non-profit, tac-exempt organization operated for
scientific, literary and educational purposes. The primary objectives of
the Society are to search for evidence of whether Earth was visited in the
remote past by intelligent beings from outer space and to determine whether
a highly developed, technological civilization existed on Earth before our
recorded history.
The Society also provides complete study courses in: "Metaphysical and
Occult Sciences" and "Cosmic Revelations" to explain the cosmic
significance of messages received from Advanced Beings.

11.03: Ancient Truth Research Foundation
----------------------------------------
6146 Eleanor Avenue #205 Los Angeles, California 90~036
Albert Rainey
213'464-5948
Publication is Cosmic Current News
Interested in many New Age topics, including UFOs.

11.04: The Awareness Reserch Foundation, Inc.
---------------------------------------------
DeSoto Square
No. 29, 35 Ritter Road
Hayesville, North Carolina 28904
Helen I. Hoag (Executive Director)
704-389-8672
New Age organization with many interests, including UFOs; investigates
various metaphysical activities and issues findings through publication of
various books.

11.05: Borderland Sciences Research Foundation (BSRF)
-----------------------------------------------------
P.O. Box 429
Garberville, California 9544429
Contact : Tom Brown
Telephone Number : 707-986-7211
Publication is : Journal of Borderland Research
Founded in: 1945
Functions as clearinghouse, specializing in rare and unusual information.
BSRF is an alternative  scientific movement which deals with a variety of
borderland subjects, including UFOs; a
non-profit organization; its members are people who take an active interest
in observing the physical, mental, and spiritual environment. In addition
BSRF studies: Light & Color affects on people, Radionics, Dowsing, Free
Energy, Orgone Energy, Hollow
Earth Mysteries, Anomalies, Fortean Phenomena, Hypnosis, Photography of the
Invisible, etc. and offers a catalog of available books, reports, and
tapes.

11.06: BRITISH UFO RESEARCH ASSOCIATION (BUFORA)
------------------------------------------------
Commonly called BUFORA. It was formed in 1962 as a federation
of eight regional UK UFO groups. These included the London
UFO Research Organisation (LUFORO, founded in 1959) the largest
UK group at the time and the British Flying Saucer Bureau (BFSB,
founded in 1952) which was the oldest UK group.

BUFORA publishes six issues per year of the A4 magazine UFO TIMES.
Current annual membership subscription is 18 pounds sterling.
Approx membership 500. Current senior officers include Stephen
Gamble (Chairman) and John Spencer (Vice-chairman).

Contact address : The Leys, 2c Leyton Road, Harpenden, Hertfordshire,
AL5 2TL, Great Britain. Phone [phone].

11.07: California UFO
---------------------
1800 South Robertson Blvd
Box 355
Los Angeles, California 90035
Vicki Cooper (Editor); Don Ecker (Researcher)
Telephone Numbers : 213-273-9409 /818-951-1250
Publication : UFO
Publishes the bi-monthly UFO" magazine. Additionally, this organization
sponsors annual conferences which concentrate on a variety of UFO-related
subjects.

11.08: Citizens Against UFO Secrecy (CAUS)
------------------------------------------
P.O. Box 218                            c/o Mr. Lawrence Fawcett
Coventry, Cormecticut 06238     [or]    471 Goose Lane
Peter Gersten (Director)                Coventry, Connecticut 06238
Lawrence Fawcett (Asst Director & Publisher)
Barry Greenwood (Research Director & Editor)
        P.O.Box 176, Stoneham, MASS, 02180, USA
Publication is : Just Cause
Founded in : 1978

A non-profit organization to uncover all existing documentation relating to
governrnent involvement in UFO investigations and research. To accomplish
this, CAUS files numerous Freedom of Inforrnation Act (FOIA) lawsuits in an
attempt to get the governrnent to release relevant documents.Their "Just
Cause" quarterly newsletter carries events and provides updated UFO news
from around the world. They published a book too -- "Clear Intent"

NI: The Canadian UFO Research Network (CUFORN)
----------------------------------------------
The Canadian UFO Research Network
P.O. Box 77547, 592 Sheppard Ave. W.
Downsview, Ontario
Canada M3H 6A7
Phone:[phone] (voice only)

Membership is $30.00(Canadian) for canadians and $33.00(Canadian) for
foreign. Their CUFORN BULLETIN is published 6 times per year and has some
excellent articles.

11.09: Committee for the Scientific Investigation of
       Claims of the Paranormal (CSICOP)
----------------------------------------------------
Refer to: The Skeptical Inquirer
P.O. Box 229
Buffalo, New York 14215{)229
Paul Kurtz (Chairman - Skeptical Inquirer)
Philip J. Klass (UFO Subcommittee)
Lynda Harwood (Public Relations)
716-834-3222
716-834-0841
 "The Skeptical Inquirer" is a non-profit, tax-exempt organization.
CSICOP is headed by Paul Kurtz and investigates claims of the
Paranorrnal, including UFOs and UFO-related activity.The committee's
investigations, findings, commentaries, etc. are published in "The
Skeptical Inquirern.

11.10: COMPUTER UFO NETWORK (CUFON)
-----------------------------------
Bulletin Board system run by UFO Reporting and Information Service. Date of
formation not known. Information director : Dale Goudie, SYSOP: Jim Klotz
Based Seattle, Washington, USA. Board number [phone], parameters
300/1200/2400 bps 8 bit no parity 1 stop bit.

11.11: Contactee
----------------
P.O. Box 12
New Milford, New Jersey 07646
Ellen Crystall (Director)
Studies UFOs by direct observation; quarterly newsletter, "Contactee"
details activities.Tne primary goal of Contactee is to educate about
world-wide contacts being made with UFOs and to disseminate information to
all interested parties.
Contactee also sells books and sponsors various conferences.
Regular Member (those who claim to have had alien contact) and
Auxiliary Member (those who do not claim UFO contact)
membership fee is $20.00 per year and includes the newsletter.
Contactee accepts articles for its newsletter.

11.12: Cosmic Awareness Communications
--------------------------------------
P.O. Box 115
Olympia, Washington 98507
Vikki T. (Correspondence Secretary)
Pulication is : Reveltions of Awareness
A tax-exempt organization.
Studies New Age subjects, including UFOs. This group is centered around the
"channelings" of a "Force" which refers to itself as "Cosmic Awareness". CA
believes that this "Force" has expressed itself through selected people in
history including Jesus, the Buddha, Krishna, Mohammed, and Edgar Cayce,
among others.
Publication, "Revelations of Awareness, has published over 300 editions and
details various New Age subjects. Subscribers receive a catalog listing all
available back issues and subjects covered. Membership is $30.00 per year.
Will accept memberships for three month periods ($3.00 per month), prepaid.
Individual/Family $ 3.00/ month or $30.00/ year New Age-related (including
UFOs) books and tapes available.

11.13: CSETI
------------
Dr. Steven Greer 704-274-5671
Asheville,N.C.

11.14: Delval UFO, Inc.
-----------------------
948 Almshouse Road
Ivyland, Pennsylvania 18974
Anthony Volpe (President)
215-357-2909
Publication is the Awakening; the group was founded in 1973.
A channeling, contactee UFO organization, founded in 1973.their publication
"Awakening", is offered nine 9 times a year; they sell UFO-related books
and tapes.

11.15: The Fair Witness Project, Inc.
-------------------------------------
Parent Organization: William L. Moore Publications & Research
4219 West Olive Avenue Suite #247
Burbank, California 91505
213-463-0542
Publication is : Focus
A non-profit corporation whose income is used to fund the research efforts
of qualified persons selected by the Directors of the Fair Witness Project.
They accept donations and will send an acknowledgement of that donation for
tax purposes.

11.16: The Federation
---------------------
The Federation is a group of people who feel it is high time we got
off this rock and started exploring the great unknown of space.  The
Federation has drawn out in blue print form a drive system that is a a super
semi conducting crystaline structure. To get more information on the
Federation send a 3.5 floppy and they will place an info packet on it and
send
it back to you. You must have a mac that has 5.0 microsoftword or better.Send
to this adrress:

The Federation
C/O Lady Rhavyn
Po box 231772
Anchorage, Alaska
          99523-1772

If you have any questions feel free to send to this account.
[e-mail]


11.17: Flying Saucer Information Center
---------------------------------------
7803 Ruanne Court
Pasadena, Maryland 21122
James H. Wales : Update
Founded in 1954
Acts as a clearing house for the distribution of UFO information to the
general public. Laura Mundo began this organization in 1954.
Group feels the Earth is in danger due to upcoming radical changes in the
atmosphere (sunspot activity) and Space Beings are here to help. They will
be able to either solve the problem or take selected Earth people to safe
locations (inside their insulated spaceships) until the atmospheric
activity calms down. When humans return to Earth after surviving the
atmospheric instability, they will begin the Universal Way of Life, which
is a standard way of life on other planets. Also believe Space People
living on Earth today are to here to monitor us and help.

11.18: FORTEAN RESEARCH CENTER (FRC)
------------------------------------
This was founded in 1982 by Ray Boeche and deals with all aspects of Fortean
Phenomena. The current Director is Scott Colbourn. The contact address for
the Center is P.O.Box 94627, Lincoln, Nebraska, 68509, USA. The Center runs
a Bulletin Board on [phone].

11.19: FUND FOR UFO RESEARCH (FUFOR)
------------------------------------
Formed in 1979, commonly called FUFOR. Not a membership organisation, but
awards grants towards research activities. Funds raised primarily by
donation.
Chairman Bruce Macabee. Contact address : P.O. Box 277, Mount Rainer,
Maryland,
20712, USA.

11.20: The Fund for UFO Research, Inc.
--------------------------------------
P.O. Box 277
Mt. Rainier, Maryland 20712
Bruce Maccabee, PhD (Chairman)
Publication is: Quarterly Report
Founded in 1979
2000 Members
A non-profit, tax-exempt organization based in Washington, D.. whose
mission is to provide grants for scientific research and public education
projects dealing with the UFO phenomenon. Since 1979 has raised more than
$150,000.00 from more than 2000 contributors. Also sponsors and awards the
annual Donald E. Keyhoe Journalism Award."
The Fund sponsors such projects the release of U.S.
Government documents concerning UFOs under the Freedom of Informatioon
Act,computer-aided analysis of UFO photographs, research into major UFO
sightings around the world,
research into "Operation Majestic 12", psychological testing of people who
reported being abducted by apparent aliens, international symposiums and
conducts interviews and lectures.
The Fund takes the position that many reported UFOs cannot be identified as
conventional aerial vehicles or phenomena. Thus, UFO reports are
potentially of enormous significance and merit serious scientific research.

11.21: Gulf Breeze Skywatch
---------------------------
904-433-2737 (Bruce and Ann Morrison)

11.22: Inner-Peace Prosperity Network (IPPN)
--------------------------------------------
12628 Black Saddle Lane
Germntown, Maryland 20874-5001
Patrick O'Connell
301-972-1980
IPPN believes that extraterrestrials have already landed and established
underground bases, mainly in the western and southwestern United States.
"Trends & Predictions Analystn, is a compilation of UFO-related theories,
news, and current events; newsletter (printed twice a year) also details
available books, papers, and tapes for sale by IPPN.
Membership rates:
$ 4.00/ year (U.S. & Canada) $ 5 .00/ year (Foreign) $12.vO /3 years (IJ.S.
& Canada) $15.00 / 3 years (Foreign)
Membership includes the newsletter. IPPN also sells Name Lists of people
who subscribe to New Age periodicals. IPPN gears the selling of these lists
to those interested in selling New Age- related products. As of September
1990, the charge for these lists are:
1000 Narnes $20.00 2000 Names $40.00 3000 Narnes $60.00
IPPN also sells back-issues of "The New Atlantean Journaln, a defunct
periodical dealing with New Age-related subjects, including UFOs.

11.23: Intercontinental UF Galactic Spacecraft-Research and
       Analytic Network (ICUFON)
------------------------------------------------------------
 35-40 75th Street Suite 4G
Jackson Heights, New York 11372
Colman S. VonKeviczky (Director)
718-72-7948
A non-profit organization whose goal is to persuade the United Nations (and
the world's governments) to establish an official World Authority for UFO
Affairs (the WASA Project), to seek and establish contact with
extraterrestrial galactic powers; maintains that the world's governments
have known about UFOUs for several decades and that they are conducting
covert warfare in an attempt to try to stop any invasion from outer space.
ICUFON wants to open full dialogue with any and all extraterrestrial
forces.
ICUFON maintains an Archives Department which contains UFO cases,
photographs, movie films, declassified military and governmental
documentation from all over the world.

11.24: INTERNATIONAL COMMITTEE FOR UFO RESEARCH (ICUFOR)
---------------------------------------------------------
Formed in 1979 as a UFOlogical 'United Nations'. The membership consists
of representative organisations for various countries. Commonly called
ICUR. Members include BUFORA (UK); Center for UFO Studies (USA); CISU
(Italy); MUFON (USA); SUFOI (Denmark); Project UNICAT (USA) Project URD
(Sweden); VUFORS (Australia).

ICUR's objectives are to promote data exchange between groups and to
help establish common standards and terminology.

Officers are Chairman: Robert Digby (BUFORA, UK); Vice-Chairman: Walter
Andrus (MUFON, USA); Secretary : Stephen Gamble (BUFORA, UK) and
Treasurer : John Spencer (BUFORA, UK). Contact address is : P.O. Box 314,
Penn, High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire, HP10 8DH, Great Britain.

11.25: Internationa1 Fortean Organization (INFO)
------------------------------------------------
P.O. Box 367
Arlington, VA 22210-0367
Raymond Manners (President & Journal Editor)
Publication is INFO Journal
Founded in 1965 by Ronald Willis
A non-profit corporation established for the educational and scientific
study of Fortean phenomena. INFO investigates the strange and unreasonable
events that happen in this world, including UFOs, lost civilizations,
physical anomalies, Atlantis, Bigfoot, vanished civilizations, etc.
Today, INFO continues the work of Charles Fort to collect, record, and
publish reports of strange occurrences. Their findings are published in the
INFO Journal. INFO holds an annual convention, called FortFest, in the
Washington D.C. area.
Annual membership fee includes the "INFO Journal" is $12.00 in the U.S. and
$16.00 for foreign countries. INFO maintains files on all of its
investigations, cases, etc. Slides, books, and tapes are for sale and back
issues of "INFO Journal" are also available. The INFO Research Service
performs funded research for the media while the INFO Research Library is
open to scholars.

11.26: INTRUDERS FOUNDATION
----------------------------
Organisation formed by abduction researcher Budd Hopkins to provide support
and a forum for abductees to discuss their experiences. Contact address :
PO Box 30233, New York, New York, 10011, USA.  Phone and fax: [phone]

11.27: Island Skywatch
----------------------
164-22 77th Road Flushing,
New York 11366 : Bill Knell (Director)
718-591-1854 (24-Hour Hotline) . The New York UFO Report : Island
Publication is Skywatch Journal
1989 by Bill Knell
A tax-exempt organization whose goal is the scientific and objective study
of the UFO phenomenon. Membership ($25.00 per year) includes one year
subscription to the "New York UFO Report" and the Island Skywatch Journal,
one copy of "Hidden Truth: The UFO Story" (a two-hour video history about
UFOs written by Bill Knell), the opportunity to attend free local meetings,
free training as a UFO investigator, and the opportunity to investigate
Island Skywatch cases.They offer a wide variety of books, audiotapes, video
tapes, for sale. Bill Knell has cable TV UFO show "UFOs Over Long Island"
on the Brookhaven Cable TV system every Thursday at 6:30 p.m. (channel
35).UFO Abductee Support Group offered as well.

11.28: J. ALLEN HYNEK CENTER FOR UFO STUDIES (CUFOS)
-----------------------------------------------------
2457 West Peterson Avenue
Chicago, Illinois 60659
Contacts
Mark Rodeghier (President)
George Eberhart (Librarian & Archivist)
312-271-3611
Publications are : The Journal of UFO Studies and International UFO
Reporter (IUR)
Founded in 1973 by Dr. J. Allen Hynek

A non-profit organization whose goal is to promote serious research into
the UFO phenomena through the expertise of an international group of
scientists, academians, and volunteers. This organization has a worldwide
network of field investigators that interview witnesses, examine physical
evidence and gather any other relevant information. The major purpose of
CUFOS is to act as a clearinghouse - aplace where UFO experiences can be
reported and researched. Dr. J. Allen Hynek, who was con- sidered one of
the world's pre- eminent authorities on the UFO phenomenon, first became
involved with UFOs as Scientific Consultant to the U.S. Air Force from 1948
to 1968, and was Scientific Director of CUFOS until his death in 1986. He
coined the phrase "close encounters of the third kind" and acted as
technical advisor to director Steven Spielberg on the movie of the same
name.
CUFOS maintains the world's largest repository of data about UFO phenomena,
second only to the US Government! This
material includes more than 50,000 cases of UFO sightings and a library of
more than 5,000 books and magazines, which cover all aspects of the UFO
phenomena. CUFOS promotes various activities, projects, publications,
symposiums, conferences, seminars and field trips to various UFO-related
locations and sells journals, books, audiocassette tapes, and other
publications.
The "International UFO Reporter (IUR)", published bi-monthly, reports on
current sightings, news and articles on current UFO topics. CUFOS also
publishes the annual "Journal of UFO Studies" which presents a collection
of scholarly papers on the UFO
phenomenon. A $25.00 contribution entitles a member to become an ASSOCIATE
of CUFOS and to receive the "International UFO Reporter" for one year.
The Center publishes the International UFO Reporter

11.29: The Massachusetts Center for the study of Aerial Phenomena
------------------------------------------------------------------
43 Harrison Street Reading,
Massachusetts 01867 Contact
Jim Melesciuc
617-944 0686
A loose-knit organization comprised of researchers who wish to remain
unaffiliated with any specific UFO group and concentrate  efforts in
individual fields of interest; many members do belong to other UFO groups,
such as CAUS, MUFON, CUFOS, etc.

11.30: Multi-national Investigations Cooperative on Aerial Phenomena (MICAP)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Based in Denver, Colorado. Director is Micheal Corbin.
They can be reached at [phone].
P.O. Box 172, Wheat Ridge, CO  80034-0928
MICAP is an international membership group dedicated to the scientific
exploration of the UFO phenomenon. Membership is $30.00 per year and includes
a subscription to CONTINUUM.

For application, call 303-431-8797, or write to MICAP at Box 172, Wheat
Ridge,
CO  80034-0172.

11.31: Mutual UFO Network, Inc. (MUFON)
----------------------------------------
103 Oldtowne Road Seguin, Texas 78155099
Contact Telephone Number Publications
Founded Number of Members
Walter H, Andrus, Jr.
512-379-9216

Founded in May 31, 1969 with a membership of 2500 Originally based in
Illinois it was called the Mid-west UFO Network, changing its name around
1972 to Mutual to represent its growing role as a national and international
group.

MUFON has local groups in each State within the USA and has representatives
in many countries outside the USA. Current membership number is around
4000. MUFON publishes 12 issues per year of the A4 MUFON UFO Journal : MUFON
Field Investigator's Manual. The annual membership fee is 25 US Dollars or
30 Dollars for overseas members. MUFON runs a bulletin board service,
contact the office for details.

MUFON is non-profit, international, scientific organization devoted to
studying and researching the UFO phenomenon. MUFON sponsors and conducts
worldwide conferences, seminars and symposiums. MUFON members believe that a
concentrated scientific study by dedicated investigators and researchers
will provide the ultimate answer to the UFO enigma. State Director oversees
the activities of Field Investigators through State Section Directors. An
International Co-ordinator and seven Continental Co-ordinators work with
Foreign Representatives in each country to investigate UFO activity.
MUFON is the "parent organization" for numerous, smaller UFO research
groups across the United States and around the world.
Since 1970 has sponsored an Annual International UFO Symposium where
scientists, engineers, university professors, and authors lecture on their
particular specialization to solving the UFO enigma. The copyrighted
symposium proceedings are published annually for worldwide distribution.
Back issues of symposium proceedings are available.
Anyone interested is invited to join MUFON by submitting a membership
application and dues for approval.

Other MUFON Branches:
New Zealand Director for MUFON,
  [e-mail] (Murray Bott)
  PO Box 27117, Mt Roskill, Auckland 1030, New Zealand  Phone: [phone]
Mufon CES (Germany)
  Gerhard-Hauptmann-Str. 5
  W-8152 Feldkirchen-Westerham
  Phone # : [phone]
  Dipl.-Phys. Illobrand von Ludwiger
       (This guy also wrote the book "Der Stand der UFO-Forschung"
       ("The state of UFO research") published by "2001 Musik+Buch Verlag")

11.32: Mutual UFO Network of North Carolina, Inc. (MUFON-NC)
------------------------------------------------------------
602 Battleground Road
Lincolnton, North Carolina 28092
George D. Fawcett (Staee Director)
704-735-5725
Founded  in February 1, 1990; non-profit corporation whose goal is to
investigate and research the UFO enigma. MUFON-NC accepts reports of
sightings, visitations, etc. and will investigate those cases with the most
merit.
MUFON-NC holds quarterly meetings in North Carolina on the first Sunday of
February, May, August and November on a rotating basis in different cities;
meetings generally run from lpm until 6pm.
To join: $10 self-addressed, stamped envelope with 45 cents postage to the
above address; you get forms for both MUFON and MUFON- NC.

Granville Angell (Treasurer)               Robert H. Hair
Route 2, Box 252D Vale,                    314 Wilson Street
North Carolina 28168                       Eden, North Carolina 27288
704-462-2303                               919-627-4184


11.33: National Investigations Committeee on UFOs (NICUFO)
---------------------------------------------------------
14617 Victory Blvd Suite 4
P.O. Box 5
Van Nuys, California 91411
Dr. Frank E. Stranges, PhD. (President)
818-989-5942
Publishes the UFO Journal : Inter-Space-Link-Confidential NL
Founded in July 1967
A non-profit organization whose aim is to conduct research into, and
provide education about, the fields of UFOs, Space, and Science phenomena.
Members are available to provide lectures throughout the world. Monthly
meetings, as well as two UFO seminars per year, are held at NICUFO
headquarters in Van Nuys, California.
One of the world's largest collections of UFO slides, books and tapes. For
more information materials write: I.E.C. Book Department, P.O. Box 73, VVan
Nuys, California 91408.
Anyone interested in becoming a State Director should contact NICUFO.
Annual membership fees are $25.00 ($30.00 foreign) and includes a
subscription to the UFO Journal magazine, which is a quarterly publication.
Also available is the Inter-Space-Link- Confidential-Newsletter for $60.00
per year.
Based upon their experience, members may serve in one of the following
positions: Consultant, State or Provincial Director, State Section
Director, Foreign Representative, Field Investigator, Research Specialist,
Amateur Radio Operator, Astronomer, Field Investigator Trainee, Translator,
UFO News Clipping Service, Contributing Subscriber or Associate Member
(under 18 years of age).
MUFON trains its Field Investigators and provides them with the "MUFON
Field Investigator's Manual".
Amateur Radio Networks are used to receive and disseminate UFO sighting
reports and current UFO information. The time and frequencies of these
broadcasts are published in the "MUFON UFO Journal."

11.34: The National Sighting Research Center (NSRC)
---------------------------------------------------
P.O. Box 76
Emerson, New Jersey 07630
Bob Sylvester (Co Director)
Publishes the National Sighting Yearbook since 1988.
A non-profit organization composed of 6 part-time research specialists with
expertise in microcomputer-based data base management systems (DBMS),
statistical analysis, micro telecommunications, and trend analysis. The
NSRC acts as an information- gathering organization which compiles massive
amounts of data and disseminates it in the form of computerized reports,
including information in statistical and graphical form.
The goals of NSRC are to provide the professional UFO investigator or
researcher with a computerized, highly graphical database summary of all
reported sightings of anomalous aerial phenomena within the United States
and a clearinghouse for UFO sighting report data; periodically release
other publications, in-depth reports requested by other researchers and
organizations.

11.35: Nevada Aerial Research Group (NARG)
------------------------------------------
P.O. Box 81407
Las Vegas, Nevada 8918G-1407
Val Valerian
Publishes the Leading Edge : NARG AMual Journal
A worldwide, New Age organization with researchers and investigators 12
countries and 37 states. The primary goals of NARG are to provide
information on developments in our civilization which affect all of this
planet, to investigate all processes that impede evolution, and promote an
increase in the awareness level of the mass human consciousness.
The NARG investigates, radionics, psycotronics, mind control, alien
interaction, gravitational and crystalline technologies, overt and covert
intelligence operations, systems above and below the surface of the planet,
conspiracies, advances in physics, planetary power structures, foreign
technology, brain machines, implant technology, human abductions and animal
mutilations.
Leading Edge is only available from Arcturus Book Service,
PO Box 831383, Stone Mountain, Georgia 30083-0023, 404-297-4624. Published
6 times a year.This is the source of the MATRIX materials.

NI: New Zealand UFO Studies Centre
----------------------------------
New Zealand UFO Studies Centre
Director: Dr J F De Bock (Phd)
168 Brooklands Road
New Plymouth
New Zealand
Telephone: [phone]

11.36: North American Circle
-----------------------------
PO Box 61144, Durham, NC 27715-1144

11.37: North American Institute for Crop Circle Research (NAICCR)
------------------------------------------------------------------
NAICCR was formed in 1990 after requests for information about North
American crop circles had reached epidemic proportions.  UFOROM
associates, who had been regularly investigating reports and
discoveries of UGMs (Unusual Ground Markings), including traces very
similar to crop circles, responded to inquiries by formalising a sister
group devoted to research into UGMs.

NAICCR associates investigate UGMs rationally, and prepare reports on
their findings.  NAICCR distributes a list of known North American
UGMs, based on information provided to NAICCR by co-operative
researchers throughout the continent.  A comparable list of British UGMs
has never been available in this manner.  NAICCR also publishes an
annual report of North American UGM activity, with analyses and
commentary.

NAICCR will continue to function in the future at about the present
level of activity, though it would be preferred if UGM cases would
once again be studied as special cases of UFO cases, as was the case
before tthat category of UGMs was raised to a separate category because
of British research.  NAICCR may perhaps merge back with UFOROM, if this
is the case, since UFOROM had been investigating UGMs as a matter of
course.

NAICCR                              NAICCR
Box 1918                [or]        649 Silverstone Avenue
Winnipeg, Manitoba                  Winnipeg, Manitoba
Canada   R3C 3R2                    R3T 2V8, Canada.

11.38: Northamptonshire UFO Research Centre (NUFORC)
----------------------------------------------------
This is a local group covering the county of Northamptonshire within England.
Common name is NUFORC. Formed in 1986. Number of members about 20. Chief
officers are Stephen Gamble (Chairman); Susan Pollock (Secretary) and Elsie
Oakensen (Treasurer). Contact address : 30 Stonebridge Court, Lings,
Northampton, Northamptonshire, England.

11.39: NORTHERN UFO NETWORK (NUFON)
-----------------------------------
Formed in 1973, the Northern UFO Network or NUFON was a loose federation of
local UFO groups throughout northern England. At the peak about 20 groups
were members. A small newsletter called Northern UFO News was published by
the group. Although the federation of groups no longer exists, Northern UFO
News is still published by Jenny Randles.

                            Bitnet: Fsdlk@alaska
( FAQ Part 3 of 4)        Internet: [e-mail]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~  ...........  .......          .           .       .            ~
~  .            .      .        Nasha tai no kasei!         .   . ~
~  ...          .......           .            .                  ~
~  .            .               Prosperity and Long Life, To You. ~
~  .... xisting . hantom              .             .             ~
~                             .                            .      ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!wupost!newsfeed.rice.edu!uw-beaver!news.u.washington.edu!raven.alaska.edu!news
From: [e-mail] (A figment of your imagination)
Subject: a.a.v. Frequently Asked Questions [4 of 4]
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: FAQ
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Nntp-Posting-Host: camelot.acf-lab.alaska.edu
Organization: University of Alaska Computer Network
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1992 01:10:43 GMT
Lines: 845

              alt.alien.visitors Frequently Asked Questions
 This FAQ was last updated: 12/4/92 (New Additions: See 0.0: What's New)
       It currently takes up 151k (around 78 printed pages) in all
                       Line width is about 75 char.
                             (Part 4 of 4)


11.40: Omega Communications
----------------------------
P.O. Box 2051 Cheshire, Connecticut 06410
John W. White, M.A.T. (President)
Sponsors public  events (seminars, lectures, symposiums, etc) to promote
discussion about the UFO experience. Since 1987, Omega Communications has
produced an annual symposium, "The UFO Experience" where numerous
researchers and contactees are invited to talk. These proceedings are
published in audio and video format available for sale. Audio and
videotapes of previous conferences are available. Audio tapes are $9.00
each while videotapes are $29.95 each . Each tape is approximately 90
minutes in length. Video tapes are available only in VHS format.

11.41: ParaNet (Paranormal Network) Information Service
-------------------------------------------------------
ParaNet Information Service
P.O. Box 172
Wheat Ridge, CO  80034-0172

Voice Phone - 303-431-8796
Data BBS Phone - 303-431-8797
Publication is The Continuum    :
Founded in 1986

History
ParaNet started on January 1, 1986 in a bulletin-board system called
"The Other Side" It was one of the first BBS that gathered together
various information for the pourpous of research on the paranormal.
Jim Speiser was the Director of ParaNet 1986-88 at the time and
wanted to bring together the three factions of paranormal debate
(the skeptics, the believers, and the undecided) for public
discussion of paranormal. He created ParaNet as neutral ground for
the exchange of information on the paranormal.In 1988 Speiser turned
over the directorship to Michael Corbin.

Current Status
ParaNet's basic goles are reflected in its motto:  "Answering Questions,
Questioning Answers". ParaNet offers investigator's raw material, in the
form of sighting reports, which comes from data supplied by the public.
The network concept provides the investigators and its users with immediate,
one-on-one contact, and instant access to a global communications medium.
ParNet also keeps it users informed major, fast-breaking stories involving
the paranormal. ParaNet can be accessed in six countries on three
continents.

The People of ParaNet
ParaNet provides access to experts through their electronic system. Its
research  branch is headed by Robert B. Klinn, a veteran investigator who
worked for the late Dr. J. Allen Hynek. ParaNet also provides a conference
on the UFO abduction experience hosted by Dr. David Jacobs, a UFO historian
and author. Many different groups and researchers of the paranormal use
Parenet for information exchange and discussion of ideas. Among some of them
are the Bay Area Skeptics, the South Shore Skeptics, Marge Christenson,
T. Scott Crain, Dan Drasin, Stan Gordon, Barry Greenwood, Budd Hopkins,
Linda Howe, Phil Imbrogno, Dr. David Jacobs, Dr. Donald Johnson, Philip
Klass,
Bruce Maccabee, Maj. James McGaha, Dr. Mark Rodeghier, Robert Schaeffer,
Tracy Torme, and Dr. David Webb, Don Ecker, Vicki Cooper and and many others.

The Future of ParaNet
In the future ParaNet plans to expan their network to even more cournties,
increasing public education and scientific-oriented  research and
investigation unequaled in  the field. Their focus will be directed at
bringing various credible existing organizations from around the world into
a better orgonized research effort. ParaNet will also turn its attention to
more investigative  reporting. Paranet plans to acomplish this unser their
new organization known as  MICAP  (Multi-national Investigations Cooperative
on  Aerial Phenomena). (see MICAP) MICAP will be a separate non-profit
research/educational vehicle with investigative ability.


Publications:
CONTINUUM is a publication put out quarterly by ParaNet It costs $18.00
per year.It is a very informative and diverse publication.

Internet Mailings:
To get the current postings from ParaNet send a mail message to:
[e-mail]
with the word "Subscribe" in the subject line.

Information about ParaNet and MICAP can be obtained by phoning 303-431-8796,
or by writing to them at P.O. Box 172, Wheat Ridge, CO  80034-0172.

To access ParaNet via computer and modem, call 303-431-8797 and you will be
guided through the registration process and be given choices of which level
of membership you wish to acquire.

ParaNet's files are available on floppy disks or hard copy. Their catalog
is available for  $10.00 and contains a full listing of all available
files, books, and videos. Contact Michael Corbin at:
ParaNet Information Service
P.O. Box 172
Wheat Ridge, CO  80034-0172
FidoNet Address:  1:104/422
ParaNet Address:  9:9/0
Internet Address:  [e-mail]
For  any information about ParaNet, direct your inquiries to  one
of the addresses listed above, or phone voice at [phone].
Affiliate  applications  can be file requested via  1:104/422  by
requesting APPLICATION.

LIST OF PARANET ADMINISTRATIVE CONTACTS

Bair, Deryl Jon - Director, Public Relations
       FidoNet Address:  1:104/422
       ParaNet Address:  9:1012/30
      Internet Address:  [e-mail]
Black, James Roger - ParaNet/Internet Network Development
       FidoNet Address:  1:104/422
      Internet Address:  [e-mail]
Burke, John - Director, ParaNet Legal Affairs
       FidoNet Address:  1:104/422
       ParaNet Address:  9:1012/9
      Internet Address:  [e-mail]
Ecker, Don - Director, Network Security
       FidoNet Address:  1:104/422
       ParaNet Address:  9:1012/3
      Internet Address:  [e-mail]
Godic, Vladimir - Australian Bureau Chief/UFORA Representative
       FidoNet Address:  1:104/422
       ParaNet Address:  9:1040/7
      Internet Address:  [e-mail]
Lord, Cyro - ParaNet/Internet/Gateway Administrator
       FidoNet Address:  1:104/422
      Internet Address:  [e-mail]
Matthews, Clark - Network Development/Coordinator
       FidoNet Address:  1:107/816
       ParaNet Address:  9:1012/4
      Internet Address:  [e-mail]
McKenna, Matthew - ParaNet Financial Operations
       FidoNet Address:  1:104/422
       ParaNet Address:  9:1012/29
      Internet Address:  [e-mail]
=================================================================
            LIST OF PARANET INTERNATIONAL AFFILIATES
=================================================================
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
========================
ALPHA               DENVER, CO               MICHAEL CORBIN
  9:9/0               Headquarters Node        303-431-8797  2400
ALPHA-BETA          LINCOLN, NB              BOB DUNN
  9:1012/31           Fortean Research Center  402-488-2587  2400
ALPHA-CENTAURI      SAN FRANCISCO, CA        RICK MOEN
  9:1012/2            Bay Area Skeptics Board  415-572-0359  9600
ALPHA-GAMMA         BLOOMINGTON, IN          JIM GRAHAM
  9:1012/13           Portal Dolmen BBS        812-334-0418  2400
ALPHA-DELTA         LOS ANGELES, CA          DON ECKER
  9:1012/3            Network Security         **Private System**
ALPHA-EPSILON       ALEXANDRIA, VA           STEVE ROSE
  9:1011/2            The ABySS BBS            703-823-6591  9600
ALPHA-ZETA          MINNEAPOLIS, MN          DON SUDDUTH
  9:1012/26           Sirius Rising BBS        612-780-5916  2400
ALPHA-MU            HAMLIN, NY               NEIL PALUMBO
  9:1012/27           The Rat's Edge           716-964-7968  9600
ALPHA-THETA         PALM SPRINGS, CA         JEFF & DANNI BREWI
  9:1012/33           Gray's Anatomy           619-778-1866  2400
ALPHA-ETA           KINGSLAND, TX            RICHARD SALTS
  9:1012/28           Highland Lakes BBS       915-388-3209  9600
ALPHA-IOTA          HOT SPRINGS VILLAGE, AR  JIM BAUGUSS
  9:1012/32                                    501-922-3276  9600
ALPHA-KAPPA         EL CAJON, CA             DON ORCHARD
  9:1012/6                                     619-530-0613  9600
ALPHA-LAMBDA        BAINBRIDGE, WA           MICHAEL SCHUYLER
  9:1012/23           Quicksilver BBS          206-780-2011  9600
ALPHA-NU            GILBERT, AZ              FRANK WARD
  9:1012/8            The Encounter            602-892-1853  9600
DELTA-ALPHA         FOLSOM, PA               CHRIS LIGHTNER
  9:1010/21           The Lighthouse           215-543-8734  9600
KAPPA               AUBURNDALE, WI           JOHN HRUSOVSZKY
  9:1010/13           The Twilight Zone        715-652-2758  9600
NU-ALPHA            CAPE CORAL, FL           BOB SABO
  9:1012/14                                    813-549-1761  9600
NU-DELTA            ORLANDO, FL              JOHN HICKS
  9:1011/12           Gourmet Delight          407-649-4136  9600
XI-ALPHA            MILWAUKEE, WI            PETE PORRO
  9:1011/40           Radio Free Milwaukee     414-352-6176  9600
OMICRON             BUSHKILL, PA             PAUL FAEDER
  9:1010/70           Pocono Mountain BBS      717-588-7549  9600
PI                  JERSEY CITY, NJ          CLARK MATTHEWS
  9:1012/4            The Wrong Number BBS     201-451-3063  9600
TAU-CETI            CHICAGO, IL              JOHN BURKE
  9:1012/9                                     **Private System**
ZETA-RETICULI       SCOTTSDALE, AZ           STEVE GRESSER
  9:1010/100          Remotron HQ              602-661-1881  9600
EPSILON             DENVER, CO               MIKE KEITHLY
  9:1012/16           MICAP/ParaNet Affiliate  303-933-7179  2400

AUSTRALIA
=========
UFORA          CAIRNS, QUEENSLAND            VLADIMIR GODIC
  9:1040/7       **Private System**            DIRECTOR
UFORA          CAIRNS, QUEENSLAND            PONY GODIC
  9:1040/6       **Private System**            SECRETARY
UFORA          PENNANT HILLS, NSW            BILL CHALKER
  9:1040/8       **Private System**            ASSOCIATE NSW
UFORA          WYNNVALE, SOUTH AUSTRALIA     KEITH BASTERFIELD
  9:1040/12      **Private System**            RESEARCH OFFICER
UFORA          PROSPECT, SOUTH AUSTRALIA     GRANT GODIC
  9:1040/13      **Private System**            ASSOCIATE PROSPECT
UFORA          WOOMERA, SOUTH AUSTRALIA      ROGER KOCH
  9:1040/14      **Private System**            ASSOCIATE WOOMERA
UFORA          PRAHRAN, VICTORIA             KEITH SONERSON
  9:1040/15      **Private System**            ASSOCIATE VICTORIA
UFORA          HEPBURN SPRINGS, VICTORIA     ROSS SKINNER
  9:1040/16      **Private System**            ASSOCIATE VICTORIA
UFORA          MONTROSE, TASMANIA            PAUL JACKSON
  9:1040/17      **Private System**            UFORA/TUFOIC ASSOCIATE
UFORA          NORTH ADELAIDE, SA            PETER JONES
  9:1040/18      **Private System**            ASSOCIATE ADELAIDE

GERMANY
=======
SIGMA-BETA     SEEHEIM, FRG                  HENDRIK BOHM
  9:1021/1                                     49-6257-7966   9600
SIGMA-ALPHA    BERLIN STEGLITZ, FRG          ANDRE EICHNER
  9:1021/2                                     49-30-7919269  9600
SIGMA-GAMMA    MOENCHENGLADBACH              HILMUT BUESCHGES
  9:1021/3                                     49-2161-53668  2400
SIGMA-DELTA    FRANKFURT, FRG                DIETER HUMMEL
  9:1021/4                                     49-6190-7366   9600
SIGMA-ETA      KARLSRUHE, FRG                MIRKO KETTERER
  9:1021/7                                     49-721-370267  9600

EUROPE
======
SIGMA-EPSILON  BASILDON ESSEX, UK            STEVE DIXON
  9:1021/5                                     44-268-543889  9600
SIGMA-ZETA     ZUERICH, CH                   GEORGE RAGAZ
  9:1021/6                                     41-81-362584  9600

11.42: Pennsylvania Association for the Study of the Unexplained (PASU)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
6 Oakhill Avenue
Greensburg, Pennsylvania 15601
Stan Gordon (Director)
412-838-7768
PASU Data Exchange
Founded in 1981
A volunteer, non-profit scientific research unit conducts investigations of
strange or unusual occurrences, with emphasis on UFOs and UFO-related
activity. PASU members donate their time and equipment. PASU is a statewide
clearinghouse for reports of UFO sightings and is comprised of individuals
with training or experience in the fields of science, engineering,
technology or medicine who act as field investigators. Monthly meetings are
held to share information. PASU has on file thousands of cases from
Pennsylvania that include UFO sightings, creature reports, unusual animal
killings, unexplained photographs and other anomalies. PASU attempts to
send field investigators directly to the scene of an occurrence to gather
information and interview witnesses. The "PASU Data Exchange" newsletter
contains information regarding investigations conducted into unusual
incidents that have occurred in Penn.

11.43: PNET
------------
Based in Melbourne, Australia. Bulletin board system, echos some Paranet
material. Sysop : Brian Evans, contact Brian by Internet mail for
information:
[e-mail]

11.44: The Portland UFO Group (PUFOG)
-------------------------------------
P.O. Box 998 Wilsonville, OR 97070
Jennifer Brown - Jacobs (Director)
503-538-0836
PUFOG Newsletter Founded in 1989
500 Members
A non-profit UFO organization whose monthly seminars are open to the
general public; maintain no membership and are unaffiliated with any other
UFO organization. PUFOG is an information group that conducts seminars on
the 3rd Sunday of each month at Mt. Hood Community College, Gresham, OR.
These seminars present knowledgeable  speakers on UFOs and related
subjects. Those who attend their seminars pay an admission fee and receive
the PUFOG newsletter.

11.45: Roundtown UFO Society
-----------------------------
Roundtown UFO Society, PO Box 52, Circleville, Ohio 43113 Multi-national

11.46: Royal Priest Research
----------------------------
P.O. Box 10546
Sedona, Arizona 86336
Lyssa Royal
602-282-320S
Publication is: The Prism
Founded in 1975, an independent research group with no members. Lyssa Royal
mixes generally- accepted research techniques skills with less provable
methods, such as channeling. Thus far, their research has produced two
books, "The Prism of Lyra - An Exploration of Human Galactic Heritage" (130
pages) and "Visitors From Within" (171 pages).
Lyssa Royal organizes and conducts weekly sessions, private consultations,
and special events. She offers tapes of her numerous channeling sessions
which discuss various topics and  extraterrestrial beings both physical and
nonphysical. Each tape is 90 minutes and $12.00; complete set (9 tapes) is
$75.00.
"The Prism" is periodic newsletter which details news, list of recent
channeling tapes, books, etc.

11.47: The Search for EXtraterrestrial Intelligence
---------------------------------------------------
NASA HEADQUARTERS, WASHINGTON, D.C.
Office of Space Science and Applications
Michael Braukus
(Phone:  [phone])

Ames Research Center, Mountain View, Calif.
Michael Mewhinney
(Phone:  [phone])

Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif.
Mary Hardin
(Phone:  [phone])


11.48: Sirian Rainbow Lodge
---------------------------
P.O. Box 2108
St. Petersburg, Florida 33731
Liah GoldenHawk (Co Founder)
L. Baird (Bookkeeper)
813-822-8154
Pulbication is Solar Trek; founded in 1990.
Primarily an extraterrestrial outpost program, provides information from
the alien point of view. The Sirian Rainbow Lodge is the StarSystem Sirian
Outpost; interested in sharing all types of positive ET Alien knowledge.
ET & UFO Network where Contactees and others may share eexperiences,
contacts and opinions. Focuses on believing and possibilities, rather than
proving any theories; focuses mainly on occupants of UFOs and alien
knowledge.
The Lodge is led by the Bennu who is an alien of the Nordic type from
StarSystem Sirius. To raise money, the Lodge sells books and booklets by
the Bennu and "Solar Trek", the ET Alien Quarterly Journal.

11.49: SKYNET
--------------
257 Sycamore Glen
Pasadena, California 91105
Ann Druffel (Project Co Ordinator)
213-256-8655
Publication is Skynet Guides; Founded in1965; 50 - 100 members.
Established to serve as a tracking system for UFO reports in the Los
Angeles, California area. Its original purpose was to receive UFO reports
at the time that witnesses were viewing the objects, thus centering their
efforts on real-time viewing, photographing, monitoring, rather than
relying on after-the-fact analysis.
Upon joining, members agree to contact other SKYNET members whenever an
unusual sighting is  occurring for members to view, photograph and monitor
the object in real-time while not having to wait for an after-the-fact
presentation. This contacting of other SKYnet members that a sighting is
occurring is the only obligation of members. All calls from the public
receive an in-depth phone interview by an assigned SKYNET official and if
warranted, further field investigations are conducted.

11.50: SOCIE'TE' BELGE d'ETUDE des PHENOMENES SPATIAUX (SOBEPS)
---------------------------------------------------------------
Commonly called SOBEPS and the leading group in Belgium. Senior Officers :
President : Michel Bougard, Secretary : Lucien Clerebaut. Contact address
74 Avenue Paul Janson, B-1070, Bruxelles, Belgium.

11.51: Society for Scientific Exploration (SSE)
-----------------------------------------------
Office of the Secretary
P.O. Box 3818,
University Station
Charlottesville, Virginia 22903-0818
Laurence W. Fredrick (Secretary)
804-924-4905 : 804-924-3104
Publishes the Journal of Scientific Exploration and The Explorer .
Established in 1982. A tax-exempt group that investigates various
anomalies, including UFOs. Although its president Professor Peter Sturrock
of Stanford University, all contact with SSE should be made through
Laurence W. Fredrick. The goal of the SSE is to gain further understanding
of anomalous phenomena (including UFOs) and to share this knowledge with
the public. The Society considers anomalous phenomena to be incidents that
appear to contradict existing scientific knowledge; regarded by the
scientific community as being outside their established fields of inquiry.
They use the "Journal of Scientific Exploration" as an avenue to discuss
anomalous phenomena and present research results to the scientific and
scholarly community; its members are drawn from practitioners of science
who have acquired a first-hand knowledge and understanding of the
scientific process. The Society holds annual international meetings and
periodically scheduled regional meetings.
To promote co-operation, and to accommodate other levels of activity and
interest, the Society has created the categories of "Corresponding Member"
and "Associate".  "Associates" receive the "Journal of Scientific
Exploration" (two issues a year) and "The Explorer" (two issues a year). An
Associate may submit letters and other items for publication in the
Newsletter, may submit articles for publication in the Journal (each
article must be sponsored by a "Full Member"), and may attend Society
meetings by arrangement with a "Full Member". A person wishing to become an
"Associate" may do so by completing an Application Form and sending it with
a check for the annual dues to the Secretary.
"Full Membership" is reserved for those associated with major universities,
government entities or corporate research institutions who have an
established reputation in a traditional branch of science.
"Emeritus Membership" provides the privileges of Full Membership to
similarly qua]ified retirees at a lower annual rate.
"Student Membership" is limited to graduate students enrolled in academic
institutions.
"Corresponding Membership" is open to members of designated organizations.
A "Corresponding Member" receives, and is entitled to submit articles to
the "Journa] of Scientific Exploration".

11.52: The Societv for the Investigation of the Unexplained (SITU)
------------------------------------------------------------------
P.O. Box 265
Little Silver, New Jersey 07739
Nancy Warth (Membership Secretary)
201-842-5229
Publication is Pursuit
Founded in 1965 by Ivan T. Sanderson
A non-profit, tax-exempt organization; collects data on unexplained events,
promotes proper investigation of both individua] reports and general
subjects, and reports significant data to its members. SITU studies
unexplained events that orthodox science does not (or will not)
investigate.
SITU maintains reference files which include original reports, newspaper
and other clipping correspondence, audio tapes, films, photographs,
drawings, maps, etc. Copies of these items a available to members only.
Membership fees include the magazine "Pursuit", which is published
regularly.

11.53: System Ready
-------------------
7154 North University Drive Suite 116
Tarnarac, Florida 33321
Concentrates on building devices which can be used to detect UFOs. Their
book, "Detecting UFOs" details these devices.

11.54: Transcendental Communications A Division of LAMAT Research
-----------------------------------------------------------------
444 North Amelia #9C
San Dimas, California 91773
Don Grantharn (Director & Systems Operator)
714-599-6769 : 714-599-6270 (Operates at 300/1200/2400 BPS) : 714-599-5045
Transcendental Communications Newsletter
A scientific, investigative organization interested in UFOs and related
phenomena. Transcendental Communications is the largest UFO-related
computer network bulletin board system (BBS) on the west coast. The aim of
Transcendental Comrnunications is to get the word out to those interested
in current UFO information; a clearinghouse for books, documents,
publications, audio ar video tape interviews, seminars, documentaries and
UFO films and footage.
The main focus of Transcendental Communications is the operation of a BBS
through which interested parties can participate in on-line conversation.
read various reports, news items or articles, or leave messages for other
members.
Transcendental Communications publishes the "Transcendental Communications
Newsletter" which outlines topics that have been discussed on the BBS and
provides current UFO-related articles. FAX number available so that
interested parties can send them copies of reports, inforrnation, etc.
Basic Member Dues       $13.50
System Member   $39.50
Full Member $49.50
Newsletter for one year; list of publications, audio and video tapes; six
months BBS access

11.55: UFO Contact Center International (UFOCCI)
------------------------------------------------
3001 South 288th Street #304
Federal Way, Washington 98003
Aileen Bringle (Director)
206-946-2248
The Missing Link
June 1981
A non-profit organization dedicated to helping people who have had
traumatic, bizarre experiences or sightings of UFOs. A secondary goal of
UFOCCI is to promote public awareness of the UFO contactee phenomenon.
UFOCCI works with each contactee to help them understand their experiences
via hypnosis, group meetings and open seminars. Each year, over the Labor
Day weekend, UFOCCI conducts a conference called "Jorpah" (which means
'Cosmic Gathering') in which the past year's activities are summed up and
discussed. These gatherings are held at different places throughout the
country. The date and time of these conferences are announced in The
"Missing Link" newsletter.
UFOCCI holds monthly meetings the fourth Saturday of each month.

Associate Directors (by State and Canada):

Ak  Thomas Wilson 845 West 70th Anchorage, Alaska 99518  ph:907-522-3 172
Az  Helene CharboMeau P.O. Box 1369 Safford, AZ 85548-1369  ph:602-428-6437
    Ray Jordan 3831 North Paradise Road Flagstaff, AZ 86004  ph:602-774-6334
    Tom Dongo Box 2571 Sedona, AZ 86336  ph:602-282-562 1
Ca  Mark Andrews 811 Victoria Costa Mesa, CA 92627  ph:714-645-7046
    Michael & DoMa Farrner 123 Henshaw #402 Chico, CA 95926  ph:916-894-3327
    Ron Rodriquez 3948 Berrywood Santa Maria, CA 93455  ph:805-937-8050
    Allen Drake 13222 Louvre Street Pacoima, CA 91331  ph:818-896-3572
    Robert Shiepe 2865 Corning Street Los Angeles, CA 90034  ph:213-836-8362
Co  Jackie Blue P.O. Box 1015 Paonia, CO 81428  ph:303-527-4412
    AM Ulrich P.O. Box 117 Paonia, CO 81428  ph:303-527-3257
De  Cary Dickey P.O. Box 5535 Wilmington, Delaware 19808  ph:302-994-7509
Il  Carolyn Baum-Hawtree 1732 New Lenox Road Joliet, llinois 60433
ph:815-726-1756
Io  Jason Hooten 525 Avenue D Fort Madison, Iowa 52627  ph:319-372-5558
Ma  Robert Poutenis Route 9 Box 586 Pownal, Maine 04069
Md  Patrick O'Connell 12628 Black Saddle Lane Germantown, Maryland 20874
      ph:301-972-1980
Mo  Barbara Becker 6219 Enright Avenue St. Louis, Missouri 63130
    Claudia Sanderson-Jones 606 N.E. 114th Street Kansas City, Missouri 64155
      ph:816-734-9000
Ne  Kristy Buckles 3701 NW Conifer Court Lincoln 68521 ph:402-489-3 162
Nv  Valdemar Valerian P.O. Box 81407 Las Vegas, NV 89180-1407
ph:702-878-4380
Nj  Linda Dudar 20 Jackson Avenue Washington 07882  ph:201-689-7144
    Maryellen Kelly P.O. Box 1874 Champaign 61820 ph:217-359-9343
    Katie Sandberg Route 4 Box 1065-42 West Plains 65775  ph:417-256-0945
Nm  Mary Ellen Masters 504 Kiva Avenue Aztec 87410  ph:505-334-9841
    Cliff Stone 1421 East Tilden Roswell 88201 505-625-0920
Pennsylvania:
    Terri Shupenko 731 East 10th Street Erie 16503
    Dennis Viglo 326 College Street Youngsville 16371 814-563-4322
Tennessee:
    Herrnan L. Langley P.O. Box 422 Smyrna 37167 615-459-0165
    Brent Raynes 326 Haggard Street Waynesboro 38485 615-722-5976
Tx  Anne Bower 815 Peach Spring Houston 77088 713-931-0930
    Harv Howard P.O. Box 904 Manchaca 78652 5 12-282-203 1
    Judy Stryker 3409 Ruth Road Fort Worth 76118
    Sunshine Williams P.O. Box 162485 Austin 78716
    Donna Brown P.O. Box 337 Vidor 77670-0337 409-769-5828
    Goldie King P.O. Box 4455 Pasadena 77501 713-475-2785
    Donna Tietze P.O. Box 260 Friendswood 77546-0260 713-482-8641
Ut  Kaye Studstrup 2114 East 6805 South Salt Lake City 84121
Wa  Lozanna Elwood 3001 South 288th #304 Federal Way, 98003 ph:206-946-2248
    Jarnes C. Van Avery 6226 110th Avenue N.E. Kirkland 98033
ph:206-889-2026
Wisconsin:
    Linda Houston N7576 Timber Drive, Rib Lake 54470  ph:801 -263-2551
    Dr. Robert & Felicia Moore P.O. Box 825 Marshfield 54449 715-387-4639
Wy  Sheri Gould 705 South Burritt, Buffalo 82834 307-684-2755
Canada:
    Shirle Klein Carsh 6973 -129th Street Surrey, B.C. V3W 9A9 604-597-5822
??  Bill Hamilton III 249 North Brand Blvd Suite 651 Glendale 91203
Ph:818-547-6935
    Heidi Duval & Henrietta Raines P.O. Box 12 Crested Butte 81224

11.56: UFO Fllter Center
------------------------
618 Davis Drive
Mount Vernon, Indiana 47620
Neil Gilchrist P.O. Box 764 Nelson, B.C. VlL 5R4 604-825-9292
Francis L. Ridge (Director) :
812-838-3120 / 812-838-9843
Publication is: UFO Intelligence Summary and was founded in 1971
A one-man effort which investigates UFO activity, mainly in the Indiana
area. The goals of this group are to conduct a systematic computer study of
UFO data from a six-state region: Indiana, Illinois, Missouri, Ohio,
Kentucky, and Tennessee; this study covers sightings beginning before 1947
to the present.

11.57: UFO Information Retrieval Center (UFOIRC)
------------------------------------------------
3131 West Cochise Drive #158
Phoenix, Arizona 85051-9501
Thomas M. Olsen (President)
602-997-1523 : 602-870-3178
Publication is: Reference for Outstanding UFO Sighting Reports
Founded in: 1966
A non-membership organization which collects, analyzes, publishes and
disseminates information about UFOs. UFOIRC also compiles statistics,
conducts research programs, sponsors photo exhibits, maintains a 200-volume
Library, and provides special educational services geared to children and
students.
UFOIRC publishes books, symposium proceedings, reprints of magazine
articles, and a bibliography of currently available information on the UFO
phenomenon.

11.58: UFO Investigators League
--------------------------------
Box 753 New Brunswick,
New Jersey 08903
Timothy Green Beckley
Publishes: UFO Spotters Newsletter
Started in 1990
A new organization under the auspices of Timothy Green Beckley who is
striving to expand his international network of investigators who wish to
investigate UFO cases in their areas.
Members receive membership card. investigators certificate, field manual,
and a subscription to the "UFO Spotters Newsletter". Membership is $20.00
per year.

11.59: THE UFO, PARANORMAL AND CONSPIRACY BBS
---------------------------------------------
Internet Contact: [e-mail] (Elite Enterprises)
           Modem: 312/604-8161  (24 HOURS)

11.60: UFO REPORTING AND INFORMATION SERVICE (UFORIS)
----------------------------------------------
Information Director : Dale Goudie. Contact address : P.O. Box 832, Mercer
Island, WA, 98040, USA. see also Computer UFO Network. Phone (voice)
[phone]

NI: UFO Research Australia
--------------------------
UFO Research Australia
PO BOX 2435, CAIRNS QLD 4870
AUSTRALIA

Administrator:  Vladimir Godic
Research Director: Keith Basterfield
Secretary: Pony Godic
UFORA operate as a network of interested persons and groups, in al
Australian States, sharing the information they acquire. Vladimir Godic
co-ordinates general network administration and Keith Basterfield overall
research.

The aims of the network are:
(A) To stimulate Australian research into the UFO phenomenon, on a without
    prejudice basis, in order to better unerstand the causes(s) of the
    phenomenon.
(B) To aid research by promoting co-operation between interested parties.

The philosophy of the network can be best summarised by the term "Middle of
the Road". It is neither a collection of "avid believers" nor "confirmed
sceptics". Since its inception the network has consistently argued that the
UFO phenomenon is of interest to science, that it is amenable to study
following scientific method, and that valuable information may be gained
irrespective of the ultimate cause of the phenomenon.

Results of research are published via a bi-monthly Research Digest, a
periodical Journal, documents, catalogues and articles in a number of
leading overseas UFO journals.

There is no open membership of the network. However, individuals seriously
interested in the UFO phenomenon are invited to contact UFORA.

11.61: UFO Study Group of Greater St. Louis
------------------------------------
P.O. Box 31544 St. Louis, Missouri 63131
John Schroeder (President)
Helen Hanke (Secretary)
314-352-3058
Publishes the The UFO Enigma.
A non-profit organization formed in 1968 to investigate UFOs and to collect
and disseminate information germane to the UFO phenomena. They hold
meetings at the Farm and Home building, 110 West Lockwood (at Gore),
Webster Groves, Missouri at 2:00 p.m. on the second Sunday of the months
September through May.
This group operates in close cooperation with MUFON, CUFOS, and with
numerous organizations around the world in order to coordinate UFO research
and information.

11.62: Ufology Research of Manitoba (UFOROM)
--------------------------------------------
UFOROM is a private, non-profit and volunteer organisation which is
involved in rational discourse, investigation and research on UFOs and
related phenomena. It was formed in 1975.  All types of UFO-related
phenomena have been studied by UFOROM, including traces, crash-retrievals,
abductions and cattle mutilations.  In addition, some UFOROM associates
also study fortean and psychic phenomena.  UFOROM publishes an annual
survey of UFO activity in Canada, comparable to the Ferrughelli reports
on American cases.  Case data is provided by co-operative Canadian
researchers across Canada.

UFOROM is not open to general public membership.  However, independent
investigators and researchers throughout North America and particularly
in Canada are associated with UFOROM by way of their contributions of
case information and data from their own areas.  Such contributions are
welcomed and readily acknowledged by UFOROM.

Although UFOROM does not publish a journal or newsletter for general
distribution, associates frequently exchange information on an informal
basis.  This information is made available through articles and reports
published in UFO magazines or books, written or edited by UFOROM
associates.

UFOROM is associated with an irregular ufozine titled the SWAMP GAS
JOURNAL. [See UFO Publications section]  It is available in hard copy
through zine exchange or for a "cost" of one International Postal Reply
Coupon per issue.  As an experiment, the most recent issue also has
been made available in electronic format via INTERNET by posting a
request to: [e-mail]

UFOROM associates are involved with the J. Allen Hynek Center for UFO
Studies (CUFOS), the Mutual UFO Network (MUFON) and various other
organisations.  UFOROM functions independently, but operates with an
understanding of complete co-operation and information exchange with
interested and serious researchers in their specialised areas of
interest.

UFOROM is devoted to the rational and objective study of UFOs and
related phenomena, as well as other controversial phenomena such as
crop circles.  All views on these phenomena, including both proponent
and contrary standpoints, are considered.  In this regard, UFOROM
associates tend to engage in dialogue with both "believers" and
"debunkers".  It is hoped that such attempts to "bridge the gap"
between the two sides of the debate will encourage more constructive
discourse.

Correspondence for UFOROM can be snailmailed to:

                              UFOROM
                             Box 1918
                         Winnipeg, Manitoba
                           Canada  R3C 3R2

11.63: United Aerial Phenomena Agency (UAPA)
-------------------------------------
P.O. Box 347032
Cleveland, Ohio 44134-7032
Allan J. Manak (Chairman)
Rick R. Hilberg (Vice Chairman)
Founded 1966
A non-profit organization dedicated to the investigation and study of UFOs
and related subjects. Its two publications are "Flying Saucer Digest"
(quarterly) and "Weirdology" (bi- monthly). UAPA sells a wide variety of
books, maps, back issues, rare items, etc. A catalog is available for
$1.00.

11.64: Universal Articulate Interdimensional Understanding of Science
--------------------------------------------------------------
UNARIUS Academy of Sciences
145 South Magnolia Avenue
El Cajon, California 92020-4522
Dr. Ernest L. Norman (Co Founder)
Ruth E. Norman (Co Founder)
Charles Spaegel (Vice President)
619-447-4170
Publishes the UNARIUS Light Magazine since1954.
A non-profit, New Age organization which has pioneered the teaching of Past
Life Therapy since 1954. This teaching is given to the student through a
curriculum that attunes the truth seeker to the high frequency energy
maintained by the authors, who are Advanced Spiritual Beings living on the
Inner Planes. UNARIUS receives most of its information and instructions
through channeling with the Higher Beings (Space Brothers). UNARIUS writes,
publishes, and distributes a complete course of study describing the New
Sciences of Life. This course material is covered over 100-plus texts of
the UNARIUS Academy of Sciences; augmented by over 100 video programs. The
course material covers missing piece's of man's prehistory, the enigma
surrounding the dilemma of unresolved problems in science, politics and
religion, and the future for mankind in the 21st century.
Class sessions are held at the UNARIUS Center on Wednesdays & Sundays at
7:00 p.m.; class fee is S10.00. Some courses are also available on TV
stations throughout California. All of the materials are directly related
to the UNARIUS goal of achieving Higher Awareness.
One of this group's main tenets is that there are superior extraterrestrial
forces which control the Earth's destiny and which know the fate of
mankind. With the teachings provided by UNARIUS, they feel that each person
can become cosmically attuned to higher spiritual forces and can become
aware of Reality and what is in store for humans. UNARIUS teaches that the
Interplanetary Confederation, a coalition of 33 existing planets, is
building 33 spacecraft that will form a giant city and will descend to
Earth in the year 2001. This "building" or "city" will descend on land
purchased for this purpose in the southern California area and will be a
gathering spot for people to come and learn about Cosmic Awareness.
In addition to students, interested parties can join UNARIUS for $50.00 per
year.

11.65: Victorian U.F.O. Research Society Inc. (VUFORS)
-------------------------------------------------------
AVUFORS is the largest UFO society in the Southern hemishpere and has
been in existence since the 1950s. (membership approx. 400)
Regular discussion nights are held and the Society publishes a
quarterly magazine called The Australian U.F.O. Bulletin which
details UFO related information from Australia and abroad.

Membership:
        Overseas (non Australian) $US20
        (Personal cheques cannot be accepted unless an additional
        $US5 is included to cover bank charges - We request you remit
        bank cheques or International Postal Orders)

        Membership entitles you to receive a copy of "The Australian
        UFO Bulletin", our quarterly magazine to members. The
        bulletin contains information from within Australia and
        overseas.

        Total number of members is currently around 400.

History:
        The "Australian Flying Saucer Research Society (Victorian
Branch)" was formed on the 17th of February, 1957 as a branch of the
"Australian Flying Saucer Research Society" and later that year was
reorganised as the "Victorian Flying Saucer Research Society" with
Mr. Peter E. Norris L.L.B. as President. In 1968 the name was again
altered - this time to the "Victorian U.F.O. Research Society".
The current executive has been in place since 1978.
The Society has held a dispassionate attitude on U.F.O.s, claiming
it is a scientific problem deserving closer attention.
Membership of this Society - which maintains the largest membership
of any U.F.O. organisation in the Southern Hemisphere - is open to
all who are genuinely interested in the subject.

Significant cases studied:
        - The Frederick Valentich disappearance (1978).  Frederick
Valentich was a twenty year old member of the Royal Australian Air
Force who disappeared on a solo private flight across Bass Strait
after radioing that an object was hovering on top of his Cessna 182.

        - The Knowles Family Encounter.  The case of a family on a
car trip across the Nullarbor Plain in South Australia who were
buzzed by a UFO that at one stage lifted the Knowles car into the
air only to drop it to the road seconds later.

Postal Address:             Internet contact:
        P.O. Box 43                    email: [e-mail]
        Moorabbin                      phone: [phone]
        Victoria, AUSTRALIA 3189       fax  : [phone]


=== Disclaimer
--------------
Disclaimer: Please Note that I don't claim that any of this research strictly
as my own. It comes from many books, articles, electronic postings and
people. I have tried to always include where the source of the information
at the bottom of the sections when I could.

=== FAQ Requests
----------------
If you wish to request the current copy of this FAQ, Please include in
your email message the maximum number of lines per message systems mail
program can handle so I won't crash your mailbox.  Also remember this is
a big FAQ, make sure you have the disk space. Just so you know I don't
plan on doing any major work on this FAQ till December, I need to catch
up on other work. Send Request for FAQ's ONLY to:

[e-mail]

=== FAQ Suggestions & Corrections
---------------------------------
If you have any suggestions or would like to add something to the FAQ,
PLEASE DO NOT RESEND ME A COMPLETE COPY OF THE FAQ WITH YOUR COMENTS MIXED
IN. I  already have the latest version. So please just slectively edit the
approprate portions of the FAQ into your message, and include the section
numbers. Also please send me any corrections you may have for the FAQ. If
you or your orgionization is mentioned in the above FAQ and you feel I have
misrepresented you please let me know so I can correct the problem.
Send all corrections & suggestions to:

                            Bitnet: Fsdlk@alaska
( FAQ Part 4 of 4)        Internet: [e-mail]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~  ...........  .......          .           .       .            ~
~  .            .      .        Nasha tai no kasei!         .   . ~
~  ...          .......           .            .                  ~
~  .            .               Prosperity and Long Life, To You. ~
~  .... xisting . hantom              .             .             ~
~                             .                            .      ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13119 alt.alien.visitors:11628 sci.skeptic:35392
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri,  4 Dec 92 18:12:37 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Dear One and All: Well it seems that I have run out of something
to say. I guess it has  all been said.
John Winston.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!agate!spool.mu.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Our Friend, John_-_Winston
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri,  4 Dec 92 18:27:47 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Dear Fish Watchers:
Those are two good questions. I'll try to answer them this weekend.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:11630 sci.skeptic:35395
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!wupost!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Question for John Winston
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri,  4 Dec 92 18:37:58 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 4

Dear People: I don't have time right now to answer your question now
but I may in the future. The answer is that it doesn't effect me because
I have seal the aura.
John Winston.
From: [e-mail] (Michael B Garrett -- Chudys)
Date: 5 Dec 1992 06:29:07 GMT
Organization: CONCERT-CONNECT -- Public Access UNIX
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Crop Circles- A Scientific Approach
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors

Greetings, all.

In the course of a long and touchy life, I have had to deal with a few
things that were not explainable. I had, of course, relegated the idea
of "crop circles" and such to this category, and waited for more data.
It was not forthcoming. One day my wife, having seen some damned
tabloid- tv-style show feature on the things, asked me what I thought
of them.

Like Twain, I was gratified to be able to answer promptly, so I did.  I
said I didn't know.

She followed up her earlier query with this bombshell, which is
indicative of why she's my wife- "Well, if somebody wanted to hoax
people with such, how would they go about doing it?"

This led to what we called "Project Flying Deer"- an attempt to
re-create these phenomenae. It was entirely successful. I solved the
basic problem in just about 20 minutes- and it was all downhill from
there. I can, by myself, make crop circles matching anything yet found
in less than 1 hour- and entirely silently. The technique can even be
done in broad daylight without arousing suspicion. As a final test of
the "technology", I even signed my name across 2 acres of wheat
belonging to an uncle of mine- and out of sight of most air routes. I
stood in one spot the whole time; it took 23 minutes. Nobody else was
needed.

My question: If someone is seriously researching this stuff, I think
they should be aware of this technique so as to know when it has been
used. Admittedly, we're no dummies- but if we could think of it, so
could someone else- and I think it casts enough of a doubt on the
studies done thus far to be worthy of thought/consideration. Don't you
think so?

I AM NOT a professional debunker, nor am I one who doesn't believe that
alien visitors are possible- on the contrary, I have a lot of evidence
in the other direction, as well as a wife who swears she has SEEN
"greys" force me to drink something. This before we had even heard of
any of the current abduction theories. I just don't think crop circles
are valid evidence of an intelligence higher than ours (mine, anyway)-
and I have PROOF.

Actual investigators of this can contact me; I won't publish the
technique here or anywhere for obvious reasons- THAT really WOULD
invalidate the studies.

Just a thought-

Darkshot ([e-mail])
From: [e-mail] (Jeff)
Date: 5 Dec 1992 09:00:08 GMT
Subject: Re: Sts-48 And "sdi": Oberg Vs. Hoagland
Organization: BeHereNow
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,sci.astro,sci.space,alt.alien.visitors

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>James Oberg will _of course_ have an explanation.  He is a member of
>PSICOP and works with Philip Klass, THE well-known skeptic "nothing-
>is-real" other famous member of PSICOP.  I've been seeing more and
>more things from Oberg lately, and I *never* see this connection
>mentioned, only his NASA ties.
>
>Robert Sheaffer may be "Skepticus Maximus", but for the rest of us
>with open minds, please consider the source.
>
>Barb



THANKYOU, BARB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I love it when Oberg is on the TV or radio, and he says:

"So the UFO people say that the government has known about UFO's for
over 40 years, and has managed to keep a secret all this time. Now
how likely do you think that is?"

It's not what he says, but HOW he says it that registered "FALSE" in
my intuitive lie detector...

I trust more of what "Uncle Mitty" has to say, since he most likely
stole it from sources that know what they are talking about.

Jeff-
From: [e-mail] (Jeff)
Date: 5 Dec 1992 09:04:26 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Finding A Guru
Organization: BeHereNow
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Max Elliot) writes:
>From article <[e-mail]>, by [e-mail] (Mary Terhune):
>> Re: Finding a Guru
>>
>> Someone asked about finding a Guru.
>> I have found such a realized Guru, Her name
>> is Gurumayi also known as Chidvilasananda.
>> She is the successor to Baba Muktananda and
>> the Siddha Yoga Lineage. She resides at
>> her Ashram in South Fallsburg, NY 914-434-2000.
>> I have known her for 6 years and you can know
>> her greatness just by being in her Presence.
>>
>> Best,
>> Mary
>
>  Like Rod, and others have said very clearly:
>
>    GET THIS STUFF OUT OF HERE!
>
>  It belongs in alt.religion.* NOT in alt.alien.visitors

Sorry Max, Rod, and whomever just DONT GET IT!

ULTIMATELY,

UFO's are about self-realization, and if you haven't figured that one
out, you have some more homework to do until you do....

Jeff-
 PS - Post what ever you want here as long as it's remotely tied to
the subject. If you don't want to read it, DONT READ IT.
From: [e-mail] (Rick Pavek)
Date: 5 Dec 1992 02:18:13 GMT
Subject: Re: Mj-12 4/4
Organization: Boeing
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Duane P Mantick) writes:
>[e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)  writes:
>
>>>>> Continued from previous message
>
>>---
>> . SLMR 2.1a . I have a huge following...all my creditors!
>>
>       Are we missing something here?  Is there supposed to be part
>of a document that for whatever reason did NOT make it......
>
>       Now I have to ask the obvious question - you had said that you
>were typing the document in to your own word processor.  I will play
>the devil's advocate here and and ask what evidence you can present
>that the document is real?
>
>       After all, the bullshit quotient (BSQ) on this newsgroup appears
>to be pretty high, i.e., more noise than facts.

Hi Duane.

Just fair warning.  I tried for two weeks to make the point that you
can't prove anything with ascii text over the net.  Kept going round and
round.  Topic was crop circles.

I haven't found much evidence of intelligent life here in this area,
there is some but the background noise sometimes drowns it out.

There doesn't seem to be any interest in cases that might yield actual
results, or in avenues that might really lead to answers.  Most of the
gibberish is really just arguments about how unstable some poster is,
or going back to some revelation that was disproven and reproven many
times but they never got the real data.

I find it hard to believe that anyone here (Michael Corbin and his crew
are good folk, and there _are_ other exceptions) actually takes the
time to read any sources besides The National Enquirer or Mad
Magazine.  There is lots of hard, solid data out there, but _it_ gets
ignored.

Lorenzen, Keyhoe, Ruppelt, and an army of others have written til
their hands cramped, but you'd not find any indication of that here.

I wager there aren't more than 15 people here on this group that know
what Vallee is, or that he's written more than one book.

There may be hordes of knowledgable lurkers out there, but not many
speak up.

That leaves too much room for the whackos to argue.

That's my $.02.

--
Rick Pavek
|----------------------------|
[e-mail]               | Si ego certiorem
faciam... |
kuryakin       AppleLink                 |  ...mihi tu delendus
eris. |
r.pavek1       GEnie
|----------------------------|
From: [e-mail] (Alec Habig)
Date: 5 Dec 1992 12:41:34 GMT
Subject: Re: Sts-48 And "sdi": Oberg Vs. Hoagland
Organization: Indiana University Astrophysics, Bloomington, IN
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,sci.astro,sci.space,alt.alien.visitors

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeff) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>>James Oberg will _of course_ have an explanation.  He is a member of
>>PSICOP and works with Philip Klass, THE well-known skeptic "nothing-
>>is-real" other famous member of PSICOP.  I've been seeing more and
>>more things from Oberg lately, and I *never* see this connection
>>mentioned, only his NASA ties.
>
>THANKYOU, BARB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>I love it when Oberg is on the TV or radio, and he says:
>
>"So the UFO people say that the government has known about UFO's for
>over 40 years, and has managed to keep a secret all this time. Now
>how likely do you think that is?"
>
>It's not what he says, but HOW he says it that registered "FALSE" in
>my intuitive lie detector...
>
>I trust more of what "Uncle Mitty" has to say, since he most likely
>stole it from sources that know what they are talking about.

I dunno... I read the article in question, and Oberg seemed to do a
careful job of analyzing the situation and coming up with very
reasonable explanations for what was a very hyped up topic.  If there
are points to his discussion that you have problems with, well, talk
about those points - dimissing the whole thing because you don't really
like the guy seems pretty weak.

        Alec

PS - If being known as a guy who is good at explaining weird things without
resorting to weird explanations is somehow a bad thing, then this is a bit of
bad reputation I'd like to have!  The guys at PSICOP have been known to go
overboard sometimes, but in general their analysis is worth listening to.
From: [e-mail] (Kumaran Santhanam)
Date: 5 Dec 1992 18:33:27 GMT
Subject: Re: The Vimanas
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Dear Ones: I found that information to be very interesting. I always
>find it of interest how certain people call space craft from other
>places odd names. The American Indians called them Flaming Canoes, the
>Hebrew people called them Flaming Chariots and the American people call
>them Flying Saucers.
>John Winston.

John,
     The vimanas were NOT space travelling devices.  It is known (I'm pretty
sure) that these vehicles were open-aired.  They didn't have the enclosure
necessary to hold in an atmosphere.  They were merely travelling devices used
to get around the earth only.

*****************************************************************************
* Kumaran Santhanam                            [e-mail] *
*****************************************************************************
* "DOS is nothing more than a boot sector virus" - Anonymous                *
*****************************************************************************
Xref: icaen sci.skeptic:35433 sci.astro:23839 sci.space:38542 alt.alien.visitors:11647
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!destroyer!ncar!noao!arizona.edu!skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu!lippard
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,sci.astro,sci.space,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: STS-48 and "SDI": Oberg vs. Hoagland
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
From: [e-mail] (James J. Lippard)
Date: 5 Dec 1992 13:14 MST
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: world,local
Organization: University of Arizona
Nntp-Posting-Host: skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41
Lines: 23

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes...
>James Oberg will _of course_ have an explanation.  He is a member of
>PSICOP and works with Philip Klass, THE well-known skeptic "nothing-
>is-real" other famous member of PSICOP.  I've been seeing more and
>more things from Oberg lately, and I *never* see this connection
>mentioned, only his NASA ties.
>
>Robert Sheaffer may be "Skepticus Maximus", but for the rest of us
>with open minds, please consider the source.
>
>Barb

Given that you've failed to address Oberg's *arguments* at any point,
and that you've complained about his affiliation with an organization
whose name you don't even know how to spell (there is no such organization
as "PSICOP"), why should *anyone* take your posting as any evidence at
all against the reasonability of the posted Oberg rebuttal to the alleged
STS-48 UFO?

Jim Lippard              [e-mail]
Dept. of Philosophy      [e-mail]
University of Arizona
Tucson, AZ 85721
Xref: icaen alt.conspiracy:20465 sci.skeptic:35435 alt.alien.visitors:11648
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU!CARL
From: [e-mail] (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs & Jimmy Carter
Date: 5 Dec 1992 20:18:22 GMT
Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera
Lines: 39
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>,<[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol1.gps.caltech.edu

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Author) writes:
=> Now if you wanna know about real UFO's..talk to Northrup or Lockheed
=> people out around Techachapi, Calif :-)
=>
=Could you give me a taste of what I could expect from that?

Mostly stuff along the lines of:
    "No comment."
or
    "No, we were NOT conducting any tests in the area where you heard the
    sonic boom."
or
    "No, we have no comment on the claim that some scientists in Southern
    California appear to be able to track our stealthed aircraft using a
    seismometer network."

=Forgive me for being hardheaded, but I really think that it is unwise to
=jump to conclusions, it is not all that long ago that the suggestion that
=we will be flying arround in airplanes would have been considered
=bullshit. What about the existance of bacteria, there was a time not ong
=ago that a suggestion to there existance would have been considered
=absurd.

Forgive me for repeating the obvious, but when it's known that:
    The government does classified research in aerospace technology;
    They've got aircraft whose specifications are not made available to the
        general public
    They have at least one type of aircraft that can achieve multi-mach
        speeds while GLIDING
WHY do the UFO nuts insist that anything that the UFO nuts themselves can't
identify must be an alien spacecraft?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: [e-mail] | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13124 alt.alien.visitors:11649 sci.skeptic:35436
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU!CARL
From: [e-mail] (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Alien Ships.y
Date: 5 Dec 1992 20:43:09 GMT
Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera
Lines: 36
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>  <[e-mail]>,<[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol1.gps.caltech.edu

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
>> And before mcsdc1al (he MUST be an alien with a name like that :-) counters
>> with a claim that there's only magma and lava in SOME places, I'll ask him to
>> explain, along with that claim, the Mohorovicic discontinuity.
>
>"Mohorovic discontinuity" is a term, I don't understand.  Put the question in
>standard English and I'll answer it if I can.  Or at least try.

The Mohorovicic discontinuity, frequently referred to simply as Moho (since
English-speakers have trouble pronouncing some Yugoslavian names) is:
    A point ranging from about 3 miles beneath the ocea basin floor to
    about 25 miles beneath the continental surface at which seismological
    studies indicate a transition in earth materials from those of the
    Earth's crust to those of the subjacent mantle.
In other words, when seismologists analyze the timing of shock waves from
earthquakes, they find that these waves are reflected and refracted at a point
well under 100 miles deep.  The timing of the waves further indicates that
what's causing the reflection and refraction is that the waves are running into
the point where we go from a solid crust to liquid mantle (i.e., magma).

So by the time we get about 25 miles down, we're talking molten rock.  So much
for "a thousand species of animal living hundreds of miles below the Earth's
surface."

>    MCSDC1AL is my computer Username.  I didn't choose it and I am NOT an
>alien.

I notice you missed the smiley.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: [e-mail] | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13125 alt.alien.visitors:11650 sci.skeptic:35437
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU!CARL
From: [e-mail] (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Alien Ships.
Date: 5 Dec 1992 20:31:25 GMT
Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera
Lines: 23
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>,<[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol1.gps.caltech.edu

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (kevin fisher U) writes:
=I have a question here:  I've heard many times that it would be difficult
=(if not impossible) for even modern man to reproduce the pyramids with such
=engineering prowiss the egyptians did.  If this is true, how could they have
=done it in the first place?  How could they do something that we can't even
=reproduce?
=
=Just a question, no flame intended...

The Egyptians didn't have government accountants demanding that they complete
the project on time and under budget, despite the fact that the government
changed the specifications on them every two weeks.

A high NASA official has publicly stated that were NASA told to send a man to
the moon and back sometime in the next decade, they'd be unable to do so.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: [e-mail] | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13126 alt.alien.visitors:11651 sci.skeptic:35441
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!darwin.sura.net!sgiblab!adagio.panasonic.com!nntp-server.caltech.edu!SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU!CARL
From: [e-mail] (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Alien Ships.
Date: 5 Dec 1992 21:05:14 GMT
Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera
Lines: 17
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol1.gps.caltech.edu

In article <[e-mail]>, "James F. Tims" <[e-mail]> writes:
>The conjecture that early Egyptians
>couldn't achieve the precision we find in the stones' intersticing
>without extraterrestrial help seems to be without any merit
>whatsoever.

Especially given the fact that anybody with three stones, some grinding
compound, and lots of patience can easily produce three optically flat
surfaces.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: [e-mail] | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13127 alt.alien.visitors:11652 sci.skeptic:35447
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!crcnis1.unl.edu!wupost!gumby!yale!actcnews!sun1x!scottb
From: [e-mail] (Scottb)
Subject: Re: No laughing matter.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Hell, Main Office - Beezlebub residing!
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1992 21:40:42 GMT
Lines: 15

[e-mail] writes:
: Dear Humans and Serious Investigators.
: It seems that we must be serious about everything from here on out.
: You think you've got problems. I'm now getting E-mail from Satan.
: I tell you folks it's serious. We can't have this. The strange things
: about this is that in regards to my posting, he likes it, he likes it.
: Heavenly days what shall I do?
: John Winston.

How about an exorcism?
--
Scottb
[e-mail]
Disclaimer:  I didn't do it!  Nobody saw me do it!  You can't prove anything!
             My opinions are my own.   They do not reflect anyone/thing else!
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13128 alt.alien.visitors:11653 sci.skeptic:35468
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Lucifer.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat,  5 Dec 92 22:15:21 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 35

Subject: Lucifer Is Alive And Well And He's Living in Sunny Southern
California.
   I know it has been stated that I have been receiving E-mail from Satan.
Although this person may go by the name of Satan I rather doubt this
person's truthfullness. The
last time I heard about Lucifer he was down in El Cajon, Calif.
  There is a lady down in San Diego, Calif. which is right by El Cajon, Calif.
by the name of Ruth Norman.  This lady really has a lot of people making fun
on her and I have to admit I've had a few laughs about her myself.  I
believe that she claims to be the present incarnation of the Ark Angel Uriel
or something to that effect. She may well
be who she claims to be but sometimes she really gets into  trouble.  Once she
was for sure that the space people were going to land on Earth at a certain
time and place and even bought a piece of land on which they could land.
Some hecklers did not believe what she was sayiing and she and her friends
wound up betting about $6,000 at 100 to 1 odds that the space people would
land. They didn't and she lost.
   I've read a lot of information written by Ruth Norman and it has a lot of
truth in it. It seems like some of these Ark Angles are born with everything
except being smart. Don Showen once went down to their organization called
Unarius Educational Foundation and was received in a very nice way. He got
to talk with Ruth and everything was going fine until Ruth and Don started
talking about reincarnation.  Don informed Ruth about the subject of a
mistake she was making in the subject. Ruth turned about 2 shades of
different colors and Don was informed in not uncertain terms that you do not
correct an Ark Angel. Maybe Don will tell more about how the situation
happened.
   Oh yes Lucifer is one of Ruth's students and his first name is Vaughn,
Source of information: Lemuria Rising, by Unarius Students and Ruth Norman
P. O. Box 1042, El Cajon, Calif. 92022. That address is over 10 years old and
I
don't know whether it is still good or not.
   Although it may not sound like it, I still have the utmost respect for Mrs.
Norman and appreciate what she is trying to do.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13129 alt.alien.visitors:11654 sci.skeptic:35469
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Lucifer 2.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat,  5 Dec 92 22:18:51 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 33

Subject: Lucifer Is Alive And Well And He's Living In Sunny Southern
California. Part 2.
  It seems that Lucifer got caught by the good guys a long time ago and was
incarnated here on earth. Ruth Norman is trying to get him to go back
through his previous lives
and get him all straightened out. I'd love to meet him some time is this
lifetime.
  Let me tell you something that I just read that Ruth put in one of her books
that may explain a few things.  This is her talking; Now many of you are
familiar with the ancient
writings of Churchward, etc., and perhaps Alice Bailey, but the average
person, the philosopher or metaphysician are not familiar with these
accounts of those civilizations. They have always taken for granted that it
is some pseudo illusion but now they will have the proof because not  too
many years into the future, they will find these civilizations under water.
The waters will change on the ocean fronts, the tides will change and they
will find temples, pillars, statuary, teaching centers and many things will
be uncovered which will prove not only Atlantis but Lemuria, the one
destroyed 60,000 years ago. That civilization was begun 165,000 years ago
when eleven of We Beings from the higher Spiritual World, the planet called
Lemuria, came to the Earth.  As you no doubt read in Dr. Norman's writings,
we crashed  on Earth but were not injured, and sufficient of the craft
remained that we made other land and ocean vehicles of it.   For many, many
years we remained there. We were able to extend our life through the many
hundreds of years, if we wished to remain three or four hundreds of years to
teach the aborigines our way of life a much as we could. And you know the
story after we left-the people used these so-called secrets, these
principles and electronc devices in a negative way.
  So there you have it folks. It seems that the Grey are not the only ones who
crashed landed on the Earth.
Source of material: Lemuria Rising.
End of Part 2.
John Winston.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!spool.mu.edu!agate!rsoft!mindlink!a499
From: [e-mail] (Robert Salesas)
Subject: Re: Breaching Experiment was E.T. Within
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1992 08:12:20 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet)
Lines: 19

> [e-mail] writes:
>
> Shall we try and uncover the reason?
>
> Regards, Lou
>



He's an egocentric asshole, to put it mildly.

Rob

--
\------------------------------------------------------------------------/
\ Robert Salesas             | Internet: [e-mail]   /
\ Eschalon Development Inc.  | CIS:    76625,1320  Tel/Fax: [phone] /
\------------------------------------------------------------------------/

Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Talk, Today Dec 2nd On The Alien Abduction Phenomenon
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Dec 92 03:17:03 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - <ParaNet(sm) , Arvada CO
Lines: 43


 > From: [e-mail] (Mary Terhune)
 > Date: 2 Dec 92 17:36:45 GMT
 > Organization: MIT Center for Space Research
 > Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
 > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors

 > For those in the Cambridge MA area:

 > THE ALIEN ABDUCTION PHENOMENON

 > a talk by Dr. John E. Mack, Harvard Psychiatrist

 > will speak on the Spiritual and Tranformational Dimensions
 > of this phenomenon .

 > Wednesday, December 2, 1992
 > 5:00Pm

 > The Sperry Room at the Harvard Divinity School
 > 45 Francis Avenue (off Kirkland Street)
 > Cambridge MA

 > Dr. Mack who has worked extensively with individuals
 > reporting to have been abducted by aliens, will share
 > his experiences and thoughts.  He will conclude with
 > a question and answer session.

 > Free and open to the public.


Mary,

I would gladly reimburse you for a copy of the proceedings from this conference.  If possible, please reply to me via email and I will provide you with my mailing address.

Thanks,

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: The Vimanas
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Dec 92 03:15:02 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - <ParaNet(sm) , Arvada CO
Lines: 100

Here is an article that appeared on ParaNet regarding the ancient Indian Vimanas.

NEWS CLIPPING SERVICE

DATE OF ARTICLE:  October 12, 1988
SOURCE OF ARTICLE:  The Hindu
LOCATION:  Bangalore, India
BYLINE:  None
========================================================
(C) Copyright 1989 ParaNet Information Service
All Rights Reserved.
THIS FILE WAS PROVIDED BY THE UFO NEWSCLIPPING SERVICE
AND PREPARED BY PARANET ALPHA -- PARANET INFORMATION
SERVICE
PARANET INFORMATION SERVICE BBS
PARANET ALPHA
1-303-431-8796  9600 BAUD
DENVER, COLORADO
========================================================

'INDIA HAD A SUPERIOR CIVILIZATION'

BANGALORE, OCTOBER 11

     India  may  have had a superior civilization  with  possible
contacts  with extraterrestrial visitors,  and the flying devices
called 'Vimanas' described in ancient Indian texts may  underline
their possible connections with today's aerospace technology,  an
Italian scientist told the World Space Conference here today.
     Dr. Roberto Pinotti asked the delegates to examine in detail
the   Hindu   texts  instead  of  dismissing  'all   the   Vimana
descriptions and traditions as mere myth.'
     "The  importance  of such studies and  investigations  could
prove  to  be shocking for today's man because the  existence  of
flying  devices  beyond  mythology can only be explained  with  a
forgotten superior civilization on earth," he said.
     Pointing  out  that  Indian Gods and heroes  fought  in  the
skies using piloted vehicles with terrible weapons.   Dr. Pinotti
said they were similar to modern jet propelled flying machines.
     32  secrets:   He said certain descriptions of  the  Vimanas
seemed  'too  detailed and technical in nature to be  labeled  as
myth.'   He  cited  various texts to show there were  32  secrets
relating  to  the operation of Vimanas,  some of which  could  be
compared   to  modern  day  use  of  radar,   solar  energy   and
photography.
     Quoting  from 'Vymanika Shastra' he said the ancient  flying
devices  of  India were made from special heat  absorbing  metals
named 'Somaka, Soundalike and Mourthwika.'
     He  said the text also discussed the seven kinds  of  mirror
and  lenses  installed aboard for defensive and  offensive  uses.
The  so-called 'Pinjula Mirror' offered a sort of 'visual shield'
preventing  the pilots from being blinded by 'evil rays' and  the
weapon  'Marika' used to shoot enemy aircraft 'does not seem  too
different from what we today called lesser technology,' he said.
     According  to  the  Italian  expert,   the  'principles   of
propulsion  as far as the descriptions were concerned,  might  be
defined  as  electrical  and chemical but solar energy  was  also
involved.
     For  instance,  the 'Tripura Vimana' mentioned in  'Vymanika
Shastra' was a large craft operated by 'motive power generated by
solar  rays,' Dr.  Pinotti said,  adding 'its elongated form  was
surely much closer to that of a modern blimp.'
     Sophisticated design:   According to Dr.  Pinotti,  the huge
'Shakuna  Vimana'  described in the text 'might be defined  as  a
cross  between a plane and a rocket of our times and  its  design
might remind one of today's space shuttle.'
     'Surely,  it  expresses the most complex  and  sophisticated
aeronautical  design among all the other descriptions of  Vimanas
mentioned  in the 'Vymanika Shastra,' he said.   He described the
author of the treatise 'Vymanika Shastra' as a man 'attempting to
explain an advanced technology.'
     Dr. Pinotti, who has made an exhaustive study of the history
of   Indian  astronautics,   said  another   text,   'Samarangana
Sutradhara' had 230 stanzas devoted to the principles of building
Vimanas and their use in peace and war.
     He said ancient Aryans knew the use of the element 'fire' as
could   be  seen  from  their  'Astra'  weapons   that   included
Soposamhara  (flame  belching missile),  Prasvapna (which  caused
sleep)  and four kinds of Agni Astras that traveled in sheets  of
flame and produced thunder.
     He  said  the car that was supposed to go up to  Suryamandal
(solar system) and the Naksatramandala (stellar system) cannot be
dismissed  as  a myth because of the 'technical  nature'  of  its
description.
     Dr.   Pinotti   said  depictions  of  space  travel,   total
destruction  by  incredible  weapons and the  fact  that  Vimanas
resembled  modern unidentified flying objects would suggest  that
India had a 'superior but forgotten civilization.'
     'In the light of this, we think it will be better to examine
the Hindu texts' and subject the descriptive models of Vimanas to
more scientific scrutiny,' he said.--PTI

=================================================================

PARANET FILENAME:  101288IA.UFO

--
Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13131 alt.alien.visitors:11658 sci.skeptic:35472
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!wupost!uunet!hotmomma!acc1bbs!dick.zeitlin
From: [e-mail] (Dick Zeitlin)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Alien Ships.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Dec 92 16:59:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Advanced Computer Concepts BBS, New Rochelle, NY 914-654-1981
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Dick Zeitlin)
Lines: 22


WB> .>I have a question here:  I've heard many times that it would be difficult
  > .>(if not impossible) for even modern man to reproduce the pyramids with su
  > .>engineering prowiss the egyptians did.  If this is true, how could they h
  > .>done it in the first place?  How could they do something that we can't ev
  > .>reproduce?

WB> .Is this actually true?  I would think that we most certainly could,
  > .given a large enough budget.  Of course we may not know all of the
  > .forgotten tricks of the trade, but I suppose we could rediscover them
  > .with enough R+D.

There was a recent PBS broadcast where they did exactly this.  Went to
Cairo, and, using local labor and materials and no modern tools, built a
small pyramid to prove out techniques.  It was obvious that the large
pyramids could also have been built using similar techniques.  No magic,
no mysticism, no alien assistance.

        D/

 * OLX 2.2 * Bring back A-N airways!!    [e-mail]

Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13133 alt.alien.visitors:11659 sci.skeptic:35474
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Lucifer Explanation.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun,  6 Dec 92 06:38:23 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 8

Dear Humans: In regards to my last two posts about Lucifer, it's
not your computer malfunctioning when you see the sentences breaking
off at the wrong places it's just the way things came out. The person
mentioning her Guru made me think of some people I have had the
privilege of studying. One of my sibors is Sananda (who is the
space name for Jesus) and I've done a little investigating of Babaji
(who was a friend of Paramahansa Yogananda).
John Winston
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!news.cso.uiuc.edu!uxa.cso.uiuc.edu!jbh55289
From: [e-mail] (Josh 'K' Hopkins)
Subject: Re: Drake's Equation
References: <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Net Noise owner)
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1992 06:51:01 GMT
Lines: 43

[e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)  writes:

[On the Drake equation among other things]

>Until the Phobos 2 incident, and certainly before 1983 was over,
>the whole question of "Extraterrestrials" was viewed in two
>parallel yet separate ways.

Does anyone actually have evidence suggesting that the loss of Phobos 2 was
anything more than a user error?

On the one hand there were those who
>assumed, simply by the sheer logic and probability of numbers,
>that an "Extraterrestrial Intelligence" ought to be "out there."
>Known among these theorists is the formula developed by Frank D.
>Drake of the University of California at Santa Cruz and president
>of the SETI ("Search for Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence") Institute
>in Mountain View, California. The formula leads to the conclusion
>that in the Milky Way, our own galazy, there ought to be between
>10,000 to 100,000 advanced civilizations.

The formula most emphatically does NOT lead to this conclusion.  The data one
chooses to plug into it may, but any data that is plugged in is pure
speculation.  The Drake equation, while significant, may be used to show that
we may be the only intelligent life in the universe or that ETs should be
everywhere.

>SETI projects have been
>using various radio telescopes to listen in on radio emissions from
>distant space in an attempt to discern among the cacophony of
>natural emissions by stars, galaxies, and other celestial phenomena
>some coherent or repetitive signal that would indicate artificiality.
>Such "intelligent" signals have been encountered a few times, but
>scientists have been unable to further pinpoint or recapture them.

I think the author understood this but I want to make it clear.  SETI searches
haven't found intelligent signals.  They have occasionally found signals that
looked very interesting but did not repeat or were later discounted.  In science
repeatability is everything.

--
Josh Hopkins                                          [e-mail]
                        Ho^3     !=L
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:11661 sci.skeptic:35479
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!saimiri.primate.wisc.edu!usenet.coe.montana.edu!ogicse!flop.ENGR.ORST.EDU!gaia.ucs.orst.edu!news.cs.indiana.edu!noose.ecn.purdue.edu!sparkyfs.erg.sri.com!csl.sri.com!nntp1.radiomail.net!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Question for John Winston
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Dec 92 16:12:21 GMT
Article-I.D.: cup.71092
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 30

Subject: Sealing The Aura.
  One of the things that a person should do if they plan to get in this sort
of work is Sealing the Aura. This is important because many times you will
have to learn things that your friends know are impossible (like having a
person stick their fingers through you shirt, then through you skin and do
some work on the inside of you, then remove their fingers and there is no
hole in your shirt). When you try to explain this to your friends most of
them will not believe you and they will think it is their duty to set you
straight so you will believe like they do again. They may resort to trying
to wear you down with logic and talking. If that doesn't work they will
resort to threats which bring forth bad, low vibrational thoughts. These low
frequency thoughts can cause you to get sick if you don't know how to defend
yourself.
  This brings us to the art of Psychic Self Defense.  The first thing is to
realize is that you have an aura around your body. This is sort of a
magnetic field and we want to turn it into a force field that will only let
good thoughts through. To accomplish this we must use something to
consentrate our conscious mind upon so that it will grow tired and the
unconscious mind will take over. This can be done in many ways one of which
is to light a candle in a dimly lighted room and stare at the candle. The
candle will be flickering and the conscious mind will attempt to follow the
motion with the eye but after about 3 minutes or less things will start to
blur. Continue looking at the flame and mentally project an invisible
barrier around your body about 3 feet from your body extending in all
directions (above, below and in all directions even extending into the
ground). Consentrate on the bubble that you have made mentally around you
and say to youself that only good can come through it. Do this for about 5
minutes each night for about 3 nights and nothing can get through this
barrier except good thoughts.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13136 alt.alien.visitors:11662 sci.skeptic:35480
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!saimiri.primate.wisc.edu!usenet.coe.montana.edu!ogicse!flop.ENGR.ORST.EDU!gaia.ucs.orst.edu!news.cs.indiana.edu!noose.ecn.purdue.edu!sparkyfs.erg.sri.com!csl.sri.com!nntp1.radiomail.net!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Seal The Aura.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Dec 92 16:15:04 GMT
Article-I.D.: cup.71093
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 30

Subject: Sealing The Aura.
  One of the things that a person should do if they plan to get in this sort
of work is Sealing the Aura. This is important because many times you will
have to learn things that your friends know are impossible (like having a
person stick their fingers through you shirt, then through you skin and do
some work on the inside of you, then remove their fingers and there is no
hole in your shirt). When you try to explain this to your friends most of
them will not believe you and they will think it is their duty to set you
straight so you will believe like they do again. They may resort to trying
to wear you down with logic and talking. If that doesn't work they will
resort to threats which bring forth bad, low vibrational thoughts. These low
frequency thoughts can cause you to get sick if you don't know how to defend
yourself.
  This brings us to the art of Psychic Self Defense.  The first thing is to
realize is that you have an aura around your body. This is sort of a
magnetic field and we want to turn it into a force field that will only let
good thoughts through. To accomplish this we must use something to
consentrate our conscious mind upon so that it will grow tired and the
unconscious mind will take over. This can be done in many ways one of which
is to light a candle in a dimly lighted room and stare at the candle. The
candle will be flickering and the conscious mind will attempt to follow the
motion with the eye but after about 3 minutes or less things will start to
blur. Continue looking at the flame and mentally project an invisible
barrier around your body about 3 feet from your body extending in all
directions (above, below and in all directions even extending into the
ground). Consentrate on the bubble that you have made mentally around you
and say to youself that only good can come through it. Do this for about 5
minutes each night for about 3 nights and nothing can get through this
barrier except good thoughts.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13137 alt.alien.visitors:11663 sci.skeptic:35481
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sgiblab!rpal.rockwell.com!news.cs.indiana.edu!noose.ecn.purdue.edu!sparkyfs.erg.sri.com!csl.sri.com!nntp1.radiomail.net!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Request For Help.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun,  6 Dec 92 08:23:41 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 9

Dear Folks: I would appreciate it if someone would tell me what
collection a question was asked me about why this and why that
happens and I responded that the question sounded like what a person
would ask a Guru after climbing to the top of a mountain. I would
like to get this information so I could answer his or her question.
Secondly I would appreciate it if Walter P. would tell us some more
about sealing the aura because I know he has put a protective
force field around his entire house.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13139 alt.alien.visitors:11664 alt.religion.kibology:5041
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!bgsuvax!andy.bgsu.edu!jkiley
From: [e-mail] (James H. Kiley)
Subject: Re: Good
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET)
Organization: Bowling Green State University B.G., Oh.
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1992 18:58:26 GMT
Lines: 11

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
|> Dear People: I answered the person's question yesterday a little bit
|> and maybe it got hung up in Portal Communications. I'll wait a little
|> bit to see if it comes out. If it doesn't then I'll post it again.
|> John Winston.

    Oh, -_-_Bibo_-_-, we've missed you so.  I'm glad you're back.

Still not quite Jibo.  Next week.

JiMbo
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13140 alt.alien.visitors:11665 sci.skeptic:35489
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!rosevax!aquarius!grante
From: [e-mail] (Grant Edwards)
Subject: Re: Dolphins
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News administrator)
Nntp-Posting-Host: aquarius
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Grant Edwards)
Organization: Rosemount, Inc.
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1992 18:13:37 GMT
Lines: 44

[e-mail] (Crunchy Frog) writes:
: [e-mail] writes:
: >
: >but you know that information just comes from a tabloid magazine
: >and you can never believe anything they say (according to my
: >flamers).
:
: Not true!!!!!!!  I have just discovered an article in the Weekly World
: News that was 100% true (I was amazed).  It was about Andrew Martinez
: who, for those of you without a clue, is the Naked Guy at Berkeley.  Seems
: he doesn't like wearing clothes and so he goes to school naked.  I think
: this article is a first for this bastion of journalism.
:

Actually, we used to subscribe to WWN at work.  WWN is a wonderful
publication -- we only read it during lunch, honest.  We discovered
that they do three types of stories.

First, there are the comepletely bogus ones like UFO lands on the
Nimitz, captive loch ness moster has a baby, Bush and Cliton meet
with extra-terrestials, etc. These stories (which are way the best!)
are always accompanied by photos -- and they do a very nice job with
the photos.

Second, there are stories where they report the facts of an actual
incident, then find "experts" or "scientists" with wonderfully
off-the-wall explinations for a factual incident.  Example: Lady is
found stabbed to death in a hotel, with here mink coat missing.
Obviously, the mink skins came back to life, bit the woman to death,
then ran off.

Third, there are straight (if somewhat hyped) stories like the guy who
went to class naked, or the 10 year old boy in scandenavia who
inherited a, uh, cat house.  The "employees" even help him with his
homework.

Pick up a copy of WWN the next time you go to the grocery store, it's
great!

--
Grant Edwards                                 |Yow!  Are we laid back yet?
Rosemount Inc.                                |
                                              |
[e-mail]                 |
Xref: icaen sci.skeptic:35492 sci.astro:23861 sci.space:38585 alt.alien.visitors:11666
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,sci.astro,sci.space,alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!crcnis1.unl.edu!wupost!uunet!rosevax!aquarius!grante
From: [e-mail] (Grant Edwards)
Subject: Re: STS-48 and "SDI": Oberg vs. Hoagland
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News administrator)
Nntp-Posting-Host: aquarius
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Grant Edwards)
Organization: Rosemount, Inc.
References: <[e-mail]>
Distribution: world,local
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1992 19:10:24 GMT
Lines: 28

[e-mail] (James J. Lippard) writes:
: [e-mail] writes...
: > James Oberg will _of course_ have an explanation.  He is a member of
: > PSICOP and works with Philip Klass, THE well-known skeptic "nothing-
: > is-real" other famous member of PSICOP.
:
: Given that you've failed to address Oberg's *arguments* at any point,
: and that you've complained about his affiliation with an organization
: whose name you don't even know how to spell (there is no such organization
: as "PSICOP"), why should *anyone* take your posting as any evidence at
: all against the reasonability of the posted Oberg rebuttal to the alleged
: STS-48 UFO?
:

Spelling CSICOP as PSICOP (sort of a homonym/pun: psi cop, he who
polices claims of the paranormal) is a fairly common jab at CSICOP.
It was even clever, the _first_ time.  We'll give him the benefit of
the doubt about whether he knew the name of the organization.

However, the claim that those tapes show some dog-fight in space is
still pure crap.

--
Grant Edwards                                 |Yow!  Those aren't
Rosemount Inc.                                |WINOS--that's my JUGGLER, my
                                              |AERIALIST, my SWORD
[e-mail]                 |SWALLOWER, and my LATEX
                                              |NOVELTY SUPPLIER!!
Xref: icaen sci.skeptic:35493 sci.astro:23862 sci.space:38586 alt.alien.visitors:11667
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,sci.astro,sci.space,alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!crcnis1.unl.edu!wupost!uunet!rosevax!aquarius!grante
From: [e-mail] (Grant Edwards)
Subject: Re: STS-48 and "SDI": Oberg vs. Hoagland
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News administrator)
Nntp-Posting-Host: aquarius
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Grant Edwards)
Organization: Rosemount, Inc.
References: <[e-mail]>
Distribution: world,local
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1992 19:17:05 GMT
Lines: 11

I wrote:

: We'll give him the benefit of the doubt about whether he knew the
             ^^^                                        ^^
My apologies, Barb.

--
Grant Edwards                                 |Yow!  Send your questions to
Rosemount Inc.                                |``ASK ZIPPY'', Box 40474, San
                                              |Francisco, CA 94140, USA
[e-mail]                 |
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!sybus.sybus.com!myrddin!tct!mechanic!James.Porter
From: [e-mail] (James Porter)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Alien Ships.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 92 12:43:20 PDT
Organization: Mechanic: The Usenet<->Fidonet Gateway oF St. Pete Florida
Lines: 27

MA>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail]
MA>(Pete Ashdown) writes:
MA>> [e-mail] writes:
MA>> >21. Aldeberon the makers of the generators and motors under the Great
MA>Pyramid
MA>> >of Egypt. Third planet from the star (sun) Aldeberon.
MA>>
MA>> No, you are WRONG on this one John.  Aldeberon got nuked by the Death
MA>Star, I
MA>> saw it happen.
MA>>
MA>No, no, no.  It was ALDERAAN that got nuked by the Death Star.

MA>To paraphrase someone else, if you're going to plagiarize George Lucas,
MA>at least get it right.

no, no, no!  It didn't get nuked.  A multi-phase energy cannon blew it
into an asteriod belt.......
___
 X OLX 2.1 TD X My reality check just bounced.

--
Internet: [e-mail]
UUCP:     ...!myrddin!tct!mechanic!James.Porter
Note: Mechanic is a free gateway between USENET & FIdonet.
      For information write to [e-mail]

Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13141 alt.alien.visitors:11669 sci.skeptic:35502
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!rpi!bu.edu!buphy.bu.edu!olver
From: [e-mail] (Molly Olver)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Alien Ships.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Dec 92 23:30:39 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: talk.religion.newage
Organization: Boston University Physics Department
Lines: 4

Why is it that all of the alien races you mentioned only resemble
caucasians?  Space doesn't seem to be a very integrated place to
live.

Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13142 alt.alien.visitors:11670 sci.skeptic:35503
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!decwrl!adobe!cjackson
From: [e-mail] (Curtis Jackson)
Subject: Re: No laughing matter.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET NEWS)
Organization: Adobe Systems Incorporated, Mountain View
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1992 23:00:55 GMT
Lines: 18

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
}Dear Humans and Serious Investigators.
}It seems that we must be serious about everything from here on out.
}You think you've got problems. I'm now getting E-mail from Satan.
}I tell you folks it's serious. We can't have this. The strange things
}about this is that in regards to my posting, he likes it, he likes it.
}Heavenly days what shall I do?
}John Winston.

If Satan likes your postings, then the only moral choice you have is to
stop posting, John.

Doesn't everyone else on this newsgroup agree?
--
Curtis Jackson  DoD #721   '62 Yankee Brunette "Dorothy"    '81 Maxim 650
[e-mail]   '91 Black Lab "Studley"  '92 Collie/Golden "George"
  "They that can give up an essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
   safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1759)
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!darwin.sura.net!tulane!uflorida!nervm.nerdc.ufl.edu!DAVGOLD
From: [e-mail] (David Goldsmith)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: I got high with an alien!!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Dec 92 00:21:30 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Florida, NERDC
Lines: 15
Nntp-Posting-Host: nervm.nerdc.ufl.edu

I know most of you won't believe me (with the exception of Dan Bell.)  But
aliens do drink malt liquer (The Bull is their favorite.)  Well at least these
aliens did.  I saw them near some cow pastures I was walking through.  And
there were some orange midget looking freaks that were cow tipping.  I said
hey dudes do you need some help.  And one said take me to your leader, then
another one said if you can't take us to your leader, Dan Bell would do.
So we all went over to Dan's, feasted on goatmeat, drank a few cold ones
and talked about the universe in general.


                                         Lud a' Christ




Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13143 alt.alien.visitors:11672
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Alien Examined.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun,  6 Dec 92 16:48:25 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 45

Subject: Alien Examined.
  When I interviewed Stanton Friedman he had some papers that were obtained by
the Truth Of Information Act or something like that and these documents were
all blacked out with ink except for a few words. Many people wondered what
might have been on the documents. Bill English is a person who saw these
reports and has now told what is in some of the reports. This information is
found in the magazine called UFO Universe August/September 1991 so don't
blame me for it because it is really gross.
  So hold on to your hats and noses cause here we go; Photo number 1 showed an
alien being on an autopsy table which is  a metal table with runnels and
traps underneath to trap fluid and feces. Body appeared to be a little short
of 4 feet. Table about 7 foot. No clothing on body, no genitalia, body
comletely heterous, head was rounded cranium, slightly enlarged, eyes almond
shaped, slits where nose would be, very small mouth, receding chin line,
holes where ears would be. Photo was taken at angle, side view, looking at
body from 45 degree elevation, left hand was visible, head was facing left,
body was right to left (head  on right, feet on left), eyes were closed
appeared to be oriental and almond shaped, left hand slightly longer than
normal, wrist coming down just about 2 to 3 inches above the knees.  Wrist
appeared to be articulated in a fashion that allowed a double joint with 3
digit fingers. Wrist was very slender. There was no thumb. palm was almost
nonexistent.  The three fingers were direct extension from the wrist.
  Color of the skin was bluish gray, dark bluish gray.  at base of he body
there was a darker color, indicating body was dead for some time. Body
fluids or blood had settled to base of body. This suggested that body had
not been examined for some time before beginning the autopsy.
  Pictures showed beginning stages of autopsy, following standard procedure,
body was slit from crotch to just under chin and green viscous liquid was in
evidence.  There were internal organs for these could not be identified.
Photos thereafter concerned specific areas of internal organs of what
appeared as small cluster of mult-valve heart or at least two hearts within
the cadaver. No accurate desciption of autopsy report or what was found with
corpse accompanying photos. Indications that there was no stomach or
degestive tract per se.  Later analysis showed that fluid within the body
wass chlorophyl based liquid which apparently dealt with photsynthesis or
similar process.  The report theorized that nourishmenbt was taken in
through mouth, however since there was  no digestive tract or anything of
this nature, the waste product were excreted through skin.
  One section of the report did specifty that cadavers were very odorous, but
this could be accounted for by either deterioration or several other things,
but thory  was that waste was excreted through pores of skin. They could
only theorize in report because there was no xenobiology.
So there you have it folk.
End part 1.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13144 alt.alien.visitors:11673 alt.religion.kibology:5045
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Trip on Space Ship 3.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun,  6 Dec 92 16:51:24 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 53

Subject: Trip On A Space Ship. Part 3.
  We had been talking about what it might be like if you took a ride on a
space ship and I mentioned that this happened to Richard Miller. If you
don't believe it then just ocnsider it to be science fiction.  So here we go
again with Mr. Miller talking; There was a desk in the middle of the room
and a man was seated there with his back to me.  In the meantime, the fellow
who had walked in with me, and who still hadn't  said anything, turned
around and walked back out.  The door opened and closed after him and I was
left standing there, not knowing what to do.
  The ceiling in this room was cruved which obviously followed the outer
contour of the ship. It was a very dark blue color at the top and gradually
faded out to a lighter blue as it met the top of the walls.  The walls were
about 8 and one half to nine feet tall, with a pink mother-of-pearl finish
on them.  Again, the room was well lit, but I could not detect where it was
coming from.
  The man at the desk in the center of the room, approximatelly 20 feet away
from me, was busy doing something. I didn't know what to do, so I just stood
there by the doorway looking at everything inside the room.
  The lighting was perfectly normal, the temperature was normal or what I
would consider to be normal room temperature, there weren't any drafts of
any kind. The gravity was normal, I didn't feel any change in my weight.
There wasn't any sensation of motion and yet I knew the ship could not stay
where it was because it was in plain view of the highway, and that was a
busy highway.  I assumed they were busy getting the ship out of there,
moving it to another location.
  About that time the man in the center of the room finally finished whatever
it was he was doing.  He stood up, turned around and walked toward me, and
as he walked toward me he was smiling.  When he got very close to me, I saw
his arm start to come up and I thought he was going to shake hands.
Instead, he put his hand on my shoulder.  He smiled again and that was the
first time he spoke, and it was very simple.  He said, "Come sit down, We
have much to discuss."  It was just that simple.
  He led me to an area in front of a curving bank of equipment where there
were three chairs which had a rather strange design.  The only thing I could
compare  them with would be a typist's posture chair, but they were
different than a typist's chair in that they had gimble mounts on the sides.
  He identified himself right away, He said, "I am Soltec." (I remembered the
name instantly because that was the name that had been on some of the radio
messages.)
  He was wearing the same type of jumpsuit except that his was white.  It was
snowy white, and there was no insignia of any kind on his clothing. Whatever
was holding his clothing closed was not visible. It looked very plain.  This
is what amazed me about everything I saw; it's simplicity and plainness,
almost spartan appearing.
  There were no women aboard this ship.  There was Slotec and four other men,
a total crew of five.  These different individuals, who comprised the crew,
came in at different times and I was introduced to them. Each one of them
wore a different colored jumpsuit. There was white, brown, orange, green and
a purple/violet color.  I asked Soltec what this meant and he explained that
it  was just a way of designating what they did, their job on board the
ship. There were no other indications of rank, insignia or anything.
Source of Information: Star Wards.
End Part 3.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!munnari.oz.au!bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au!uqcspe!cs.uq.oz.au!rhys
From: [e-mail] (Rhys Weatherley)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: About John Winston and others ...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Dec 92 04:28:35 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <pershing.723448895@teal>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Lines: 29

In <pershing.723448895@teal> [e-mail] (Paul Pershing) writes:

>Is there another newsgroup where people can discuss some of these issues
>without having to wade through dozens of posts by folks who subscribe to
>the National Enquirer/Weekly World News perspective?

Nup.  There are a number of "sister groups": alt.paranormal, alt.out-of-body,
talk.religion.newage, ...  Even sci.skeptic to some degree.

Any proposed new group is doomed to failure (IMHO), because JW and friends
will simply move there.  Moderation is a non-solution because we'd never
agree on a moderator.  We've been down that road before.

Reducing noise in this group basically a process of "those who have the 'good
stuff' should post it".  Then again, there are many that consider the same
old recycled information as 'good stuff'. *sigh*  In the long run, this group
will only be improved by crowding out the chaff with the wheat.

We are are at a slight disadvantage here, because besides some notable
individuals such as Jeff P and Michael Corbin, most of us are just armchair
ufologists trying to make sense out of it all.  Stick with it, make liberal
use of the kill file, and "thou shalt survive". :)

Cheers,

Rhys.
--
Rhys Weatherley, University of Queensland, Australia.
[e-mail]  "I'm a FAQ nut - what's your problem?"
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!munnari.oz.au!ariel.ucs.unimelb.EDU.AU!werple.apana.org.au!news
From: [e-mail] (Glenn Durden)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: John Winston and his unbelievable load of crap
Date: 7 Dec 1992 17:11:33 +1100
Organization: werple public-access unix, Melbourne
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: werple.apana.org.au

[e-mail] (Max Elliot) writes:


>  I am finally pushed over the brink as well. I can't take the amazing
>  amount of unrelated bullshit that JW posts. It is a real waste of
>  bandwidth and a shame to the entire group. He is diluting this group's
>  interest and effectiveness completely. I really am beginning to wonder
>  if he isn't a smokescreen. Welcome to the kill file John Winston.
>  (it really takes a LOT of BS for me to put someone in my kill file).

>  Discouraged by ignorant, heedless and self seeking JW.

>-Max

I tend to agree.
In the same way that the sheer number of fake crop circles has killed any
chance of investigating real ones (if there ever was anything to these),
then the sheer bulk and number of John_-_Winstons babblings about
invisible babies, telepathic, astral travelling bigfoots, underground
cities, 100 different kinds of alien he has met (including his friends
from venus), and various other things with "higher vibrational frequency"
and the like, not to mention his private e-mail postings that are public,
and his 3 line announcements that he will post some stuff soon, AND his
announcements when he goes on holidays, AND his weekly OBE trips...
 It all gets a bit much.

When I first started reading this group a few months back, I was sure he
was just a sick, deluded individual.     Now I am sure he is just having a
laugh at the people who take him seriously.  (and loving the 'publicity').

Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!cs.utexas.edu!rutgers!concert!rock!darkshot
From: [e-mail] (Michael B Garrett -- Chudys)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Crop circles: A scientific approach
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Dec 92 06:53:29 GMT
Organization: CONCERT-CONNECT -- Public Access UNIX
Lines: 49

(I will send this message to folks that write me about my previous
posting on this subject, but I thought I'd post it here first and
take some of the pressure off my mailbox.)

I apologize in advance for this being a "form" letter; rest assured
your letter was read and saved by me so I can get back to you once
the dust has settled, so to speak.

I have gotten so many requests for further info on my crop-circle
making "technique" that I've had to take this approach in answering
them all. Those of you to whom I have sent my Snail address will get
full notes and plans upon receipt of your letters.

A note to  everyone else-

In short: I mentioned this on the net in hopes that serious researchers
would be interested enough to contact me. This has happened, and I am
planning to keep the technique within that circle until the information
can be used to investigate existing sites that have failed of explanation.

I did this because while I know some UFO researchers here locally, they
have all seen Elvis at least once since the start of the Bush administration,
and many already believe me to be psychic since I made the mistake of doing
the card trick "Amazing" at a party years ago. (One of them annoyed me so
much I actually showed her how the trick was done- and she STILL thought it
was "Amazing". Query: Are these people breeding?)

For the record: I have no trouble believing in intelligent, technologically
advanced races on other planets, nor do I find it odd that IF such a race
exists, they would stumble on us and study us to see what the hell we're up to.
Granted, space is big, but our planet puts out enough radio flux to stand out
in ANYBODY's protoHubble array.

What I do NOT find credible is the idea of this race going to all that damned
trouble when they could easily send us a phaser and an Intergalactic Peace
Treaty by Federal Express. Nor do I believe that an alien race could be so
advanced as to be able to find us, study us, and not have sense enough to
put read and green running lights on their spacecraft. I know _I_ would.

But: I have a firm belief in Occam's Razor, and I suspect that careful study
of the crop-circles and such will show they were done by someone using a
technique very much like mine. It is in this light that I have posted these
messages.

I enjoy this reading this newsgroup; hope I haven't wasted any bandwidth.

Later,

'Shot
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!darwin.sura.net!spool.mu.edu!umn.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!jeffp
From: [e-mail] (Jeff)
Subject: Re: John Winston and his unbelievable load of crap
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: BeHereNow
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1992 06:49:32 GMT
Lines: 9



WOULD YOU PEOPLE JUST TAKE IT SOMEWHERE ELSE PLEASE?

JW IS JUST AN OLD MAN, AND HE KNOWS A LOT THAT YOU DON'T,
AND I SURE AM TIRED OF READING YOUR CRAP. 10 TIME "MORE WASTE OF BANDWIDTH"
THAN ANYTHING HE HAS EVER WRITTEN.

Jeff-
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:11678 alt.religion.kibology:5052
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!batcomputer!reed!henson!news.u.washington.edu!uw-beaver!boesch
From: [e-mail] (Eric Boesch)
Subject: Re: Trip on Space Ship 3.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Screw you, NSA, I'm not telling you a thing
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 92 07:04:17 GMT
Lines: 37

[e-mail] writes:
>Subject: Trip On A Space Ship. Part 3.
>  We had been talking about what it might be like if you took a ride on a
>space ship and I mentioned that this happened to Richard Miller. If you
>don't believe it then just ocnsider it to be science fiction.  So here we go
>again with Mr. Miller talking; There was a desk in the middle of the room
>and a man was seated there with his back to me.  In the meantime, the fellow
>who had walked in with me, and who still hadn't  said anything, turned
>around and walked back out.  The door opened and closed after him and I was
>left standing there, not knowing what to do.
>  The ceiling in this room was cruved which obviously followed the outer
>contour of the ship. It was a very dark blue color at the top and gradually
>faded out to a lighter blue as it met the top of the walls.  The walls were
>about 8 and one half to nine feet tall, with a pink mother-of-pearl finish
>on them.

First, I would like to say thank you for being so honest about this,
few people will admit having experienced this, or even that they know
people who did.  Second, I would like to point out that clams cannot
survive in space, so the walls were probably simulated mother-of-pearl
glaze made from LIQUIFIED HUMAN SKIN.

Sources of Information: __So You've Been Abducted By Space Aliens: Now
What?__ and __Excuse Me Mr. Space Alien, Have You Seen My Mommy?__

Alien tip: If the building has more floors than you remember it
having, or you don't remember the building being there at all, STAY
OUT OF THE DENTIST'S OFFICE.

Alien tip #2: If your new braces receive radio broadcasts in the range
of 5.77314 to 5.77317 kHz, remove them IMMEDIATELY, even if it costs
you all your teeth.  Then call the UFO Task Force.  DO NOT INFORM THE
U.S. GOVERNMENT -- they probably already know about it.

-- A man who is toothless, but free.
Pickup line: "I may be beneath your respect but I'm not above your
pity."
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13147 alt.alien.visitors:11679 sci.skeptic:35522
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbnewsm!cbnewsl!att-out!cbfsb!cbnewsg.cb.att.com!cooper
From: [e-mail] (Ralph 'Hairy' Moonen)
Subject: Re: No laughing matter.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: AT&T
References:  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1992 08:43:23 GMT
Lines: 17

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
> Dear Humans and Serious Investigators.
> I'm now getting E-mail from Satan.
> Heavenly days what shall I do?


a) Seek professional help?
b) Stay away from those blotters a while?
c) Wake up?
d) Sue Satan for harassment?
e) All of the above.

--Ralph




Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!agate!doc.ic.ac.uk!mrccrc!sgamble
From: [e-mail] (Steve Gamble x3293)
Subject: UK CONFERENCE - Preliminary Announcement
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: tin
Organization: MRC Human Genome Resource Centre
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1992 10:00:31 GMT
Lines: 29

This is a preliminary announcement for the 7th International UFO
Congress which will be held at Bristol University, UK on
Saturday 24th and Sunday 25th July 1993. This event is organised
by the British UFO Research Association in collaboration with
other UFO organisations.

Speakers so far include :

    Jenny Randles - author of a number of books about UFOs and
                    the paranormal

    John Shaw     - a psychologist from Manchester University

        Albert Budden - researcher and investigator who has carried out
                        an in depth study of the Rowley Regis contactee case

        Ken Phillips  - a leading researcher of witness lead investigation

I will post further information as it becomes available. Although it is not
anticipated that anything will change, BUFORA reserves the right to if
necessary.



--
(Disclaimer: These are not my employer's opinions, they may not even be mine!)
Steve Gamble, Computing Services, Clinical Research Centre and Human Genome
Mapping Project Resource Centre, Watford Road, Harrow, Middlesex, HA1 3UJ, UK.
Phone: [phone]  JANET: [e-mail] INTERNET: [e-mail]
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13148 alt.alien.visitors:11681 sci.skeptic:35525
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mcsun!uknet!str-ccsun!dct.ac.uk!mcsdc1al
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Alien Ships.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Dec 92 09:52:38 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Dundee Institute of Technology
Lines: 43

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Dick Zeitlin) writes:
>
> WB> .>I have a question here:  I've heard many times that it would be difficult
>   > .>(if not impossible) for even modern man to reproduce the pyramids with su
>   > .>engineering prowiss the egyptians did.  If this is true, how could they h
>   > .>done it in the first place?  How could they do something that we can't ev
>   > .>reproduce?
>
> WB> .Is this actually true?  I would think that we most certainly could,
>   > .given a large enough budget.  Of course we may not know all of the
>   > .forgotten tricks of the trade, but I suppose we could rediscover them
>   > .with enough R+D.
>
> There was a recent PBS broadcast where they did exactly this.  Went to
> Cairo, and, using local labor and materials and no modern tools, built a
> small pyramid to prove out techniques.  It was obvious that the large
> pyramids could also have been built using similar techniques.  No magic,
> no mysticism, no alien assistance.
>
>         D/
Let's clear something up here and now.  I never said it was impossible to build
pyramids without ET assistance.  I know it's possible, of course it is.
    What I did say was that it was aliens who DID build (or supervise) the
construction of many Egyptian pyramids.  The pyramids contained their power
source (crystal?).  The power source had to be contained inside the double
pyramid.
   So whoever started this thread about how easy it is to build pyramids can
just about blimming well shut up, alright?

**Lucas**










>
>  * OLX 2.2 * Bring back A-N airways!!    [e-mail]
>
Xref: icaen sci.skeptic:35527 sci.astro:23873 sci.space:38621 alt.alien.visitors:11682
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!stanford.edu!hsdndev!dartvax!Benito.E.Villanueva
From: [e-mail] (Benito E. Villanueva)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,sci.astro,sci.space,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: STS-48 and "SDI": Oberg vs. Hoagland
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Dec 92 06:33:47 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (The News Manager)
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
Lines: 6
X-Posted-From: [e-mail]

I seem to have caught this debate half way through and I have not seen
the video in question. Is this video available anywhere- everyone else
seems to have seen it? How can I view a copy?
Any info would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Steven Villanueva
Xref: icaen sci.skeptic:35531 sci.astro:23875 sci.space:38627 alt.alien.visitors:11683
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!agate!doc.ic.ac.uk!warwick!str-ccsun!dct.ac.uk!ccdarg
From: [e-mail] (Alan Greig)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,sci.astro,sci.space,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: STS-48 and "SDI": Oberg vs. Hoagland
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Dec 92 11:14:48 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: world,local
Organization: Dundee Institute of Technology
Lines: 27

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Grant Edwards) writes:
> [e-mail] (James J. Lippard) writes:
> : [e-mail] writes...
> : > James Oberg will _of course_ have an explanation.  He is a member of
> : > PSICOP and works with Philip Klass, THE well-known skeptic "nothing-
> : > is-real" other famous member of PSICOP.
> :
> : Given that you've failed to address Oberg's *arguments* at any point,
> : and that you've complained about his affiliation with an organization
> : whose name you don't even know how to spell (there is no such organization
> : as "PSICOP"), why should *anyone* take your posting as any evidence at
> : all against the reasonability of the posted Oberg rebuttal to the alleged
> : STS-48 UFO?
> :
>
> Spelling CSICOP as PSICOP (sort of a homonym/pun: psi cop, he who
> polices claims of the paranormal) is a fairly common jab at CSICOP.
> It was even clever, the _first_ time.  We'll give him the benefit of
> the doubt about whether he knew the name of the organization.

And I thought it was supposed to  sound like psych-ops (Intelligence
spook division...)
--
Alan Greig                            Janet: [e-mail]-TECH
Dundee Institute of Technology       Internet: [e-mail]
Tel: [phone]                 Int: [phone]
              -- There is only one true conspiracy --
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: New Phone Numbers...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Dec 92 23:42:01 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - <ParaNet(sm) , Arvada CO
Lines: 22

ParaNet will be moving the weekend of December 5th through the 7th, to a larger
place.  Unfortunately, we were unable to keep the same phone numbers as we
moved outside of the local central office.

Please note these new numbers and manually add them to your nodelists until Net
104 gets the new phone number recorded in the upcoming nodelists.

The new number is:  303-429-2713.

The new voice number is:  303-429-2654.

The system may be unreachable on Monday, December 7th for a couple of hours
while installation is completed.

Thanks,

Michael Corbin

--
Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13149 alt.alien.visitors:11685 sci.skeptic:35535
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.unomaha.edu!cwis!stone
From: [e-mail] (Travis Stone)
Subject: Re: No laughing matter.
Message-ID: <stone.723736737@cwis>
Sender: [e-mail] (UNO Network News Server)
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1992 13:58:57 GMT
Lines: 5



Simple.  Go see him about it.  Personally.  ASAP.

T.R. Stone
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13150 alt.alien.visitors:11686 sci.skeptic:35537
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!crdgw1!rpi!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!decwrl!deccrl!news.crl.dec.com!dbased.nuo.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!nntpd2.cxo.dec.com!acetek.enet.dec.com!timpson
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: No laughing matter.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Dec 92 14:03:13 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Reply-To: [e-mail] ()
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 33




In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:

|>Dear Humans and Serious Investigators.
|>It seems that we must be serious about everything from here on out.
|>You think you've got problems. I'm now getting E-mail from Satan.
|>I tell you folks it's serious. We can't have this. The strange things
|>about this is that in regards to my posting, he likes it, he likes it.
|>Heavenly days what shall I do?
|>John Winston.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

John this is a laughing mater.  You and Gary Stollman are such a pair.

GET A LIFE!

Steve Food_for_the_Greys/Reptoids

--
        -----------------------------------------------------------------
        |                                                               |
        |  My atheism, like that of Spinoza, is true piety towards the  |
        |  universe and denies only gods fashioned by men in their own  |
        |  image to be servants of their human interests.               |
        |                                                               |
        |                                  -- George Santayana          |
        |                                                               |
        -----------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!spool.mu.edu!umn.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!payner
From: [e-mail] (Rich Payne)
Subject: Re: John Winston and his unbelievable load of crap
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1992 14:54:43 GMT
Lines: 27

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeff) writes:
>
>
>WOULD YOU PEOPLE JUST TAKE IT SOMEWHERE ELSE PLEASE?
>
>JW IS JUST AN OLD MAN, AND HE KNOWS A LOT THAT YOU DON'T,

Jeff, his primary source of information seems to be the World Weekly News.
This is a waste of bandwith, IMHO.

>AND I SURE AM TIRED OF READING YOUR CRAP. 10 TIME "MORE WASTE OF BANDWIDTH"
>THAN ANYTHING HE HAS EVER WRITTEN.

Why is your "AND I SURE AM TIRED OF READING YOUR CRAP" post a justified
response to someone elses 'I am tired of reading JW's posts' post? You do
realize that you are doing the exact same thing, in all caps no less. Can
you say -hypocrisy-? I knew you could.

>Jeff-


Rich

[e-mail]



Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!mcsun!fuug!penet!anon
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Opinions about the FAQ file
X-Anonymously-To: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: Anonymous contact service
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1992 12:59:41 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Anonymous contact service)
Lines: 60

        My opinions about the FAQ:

        The FAQ is fairly long. But it has very wrong things in it:
        First of all, it shouldn't be a database of UFO-orientated
        organizations. It has tens of addresses of UFO-stuff selling
        (or possibly giving away) companies. It makes the FAQ look
        like an advertisment for them. I think it's just an
        attempt to make money!

        And then, about the facts in FAQ: There are very few of them.
        Sure, all types of alien encounterings are explained, but
        then again, descriptions of alien races! It should be in
        rec.humor or in alt.tasteless.jokes. I wonder why Klingons,
        Borgs, The ferrengi and such have not been listed.

        And, a very common mistake is found too many times in the
        text: The word UFO stands for Unidentified Flying Object. As
        soon as someone knows what it is, let's just say it's an
        alien spacecraft, it becomes an Identified Flying Object,
        that is IFO. UFO need not to be an alien vessel, it might
        be a weather balloon or something like that.

        On whole, the FAQ is very one-sided. It tries to
        convince people that aliens exist. There is no
        room for skeptic opinions. And the list says that
        all skeptics are trying to do is to prove that
        aliens don't exist. This is totally wrong. Anyone
        recall what skeptic stands for? Or what skeptics do?

        I would very much like to see some conversation about these
        issues. Is there anyone who agrees with me? Or disagrees? I
        bet there is :)

        And if you want to say why or why not you believe in alien
        visitors, please post to this newsgroup or mail directly
        to me. You can find the address in the header of this post.

        But, no flames, please. I don't want anyone say, you are
        skeptic and you stink or anything like that. And remember,
    I'm not saying alien life doesn't exist, just that I don't
    believe all I'm told.





---------------------------------------------------------------------
To find out more about this service, send mail to [e-mail].

[e-mail]    Anonymous posting to newsgroup
[e-mail]            Anonymous mail to anon user
[e-mail]        Anonymous mail to known user
[e-mail]            To test/allocate alias
[e-mail]            To set nickname (in Subject:)
[e-mail]            To reach administrator
[e-mail]            To reach administrator anonymously

Or mail to [e-mail], with a "X-Anon-To:" header containing recipient.

Please note you _don't_ have to have an anon id to receive anonymous mail!
Xref: icaen sci.skeptic:35542 sci.astro:23882 sci.space:38637 alt.alien.visitors:11689
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,sci.astro,sci.space,alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!darwin.sura.net!spool.mu.edu!agate!doc.ic.ac.uk!daresbury!mrccrc!mrccrc!sgamble
From: [e-mail] (Steve Gamble x3293)
Subject: Re: STS-48 and "SDI": Oberg vs. Hoagland
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: germanium
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Steve Gamble x3293)
Organization: MRC Human Genome Mapping Project Resource Centre, Harrow, UK
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1992 16:42:05 GMT
Lines: 36

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
> James Oberg will _of course_ have an explanation.  He is a member of
> PSICOP and works with Philip Klass, THE well-known skeptic "nothing-
> is-real" other famous member of PSICOP.  I've been seeing more and
> more things from Oberg lately, and I *never* see this connection
> mentioned, only his NASA ties.
>
> Robert Sheaffer may be "Skepticus Maximus", but for the rest of us
> with open minds, please consider the source.
>
> Barb

Does the fact that Robert Sheaffer is a member of CSICOP and James Oberg
is a friend of his and they both know Phil Klass mean that their solution
to the video is incorrect?

I saw this video when I visited MUFON Headquarters during the summer. I have
made a special study of UFO photos over the last fifteen years, during which
time I have been a photoanalyst for the British UFO Research Association, the
UK equivalent of MUFON. I am happy that Oberg's explanation fits with what is
shown on the video. The UFOs and the missile which shoots them down are nothing
other than small debris close to the camera, probably ice crystals. The change
in motion is caused by the firing of a thruster just out of camera shot.

Continuing myths does not help the serious study of UFOs. I am supposed to be
a believer (although what I believe could be another long discussion!) and
I am convinced of the same solution as the non-believers.

These are of course my own views, not those of my employer or BUFORA.

Steve.
--
(Disclaimer: These are not my employer's opinions, they may not even be mine!)
Steve Gamble, Computing Services, Clinical Research Centre and Human Genome
Mapping Project Resource Centre, Watford Road, Harrow, Middlesex, HA1 3UJ, UK.
Phone: [phone]  JANET: [e-mail] INTERNET: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!spool.mu.edu!news.cs.indiana.edu!noose.ecn.purdue.edu!dynamo.ecn.purdue.edu!wb9omc
From: [e-mail] (Duane P Mantick)
Subject: Re: I got high with an alien!!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET news)
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
References: <[e-mail]>
Date:  7 Dec 92 16:49:59 GMT
Lines: 18

[e-mail] (David Goldsmith) writes:

>I know most of you won't believe me (with the exception of Dan Bell.)  But
>aliens do drink malt liquer (The Bull is their favorite.)  Well at least these
>aliens did.  I saw them near some cow pastures I was walking through.  And
>there were some orange midget looking freaks that were cow tipping.  I said
>hey dudes do you need some help.  And one said take me to your leader, then
>another one said if you can't take us to your leader, Dan Bell would do.
>So we all went over to Dan's, feasted on goatmeat, drank a few cold ones
>and talked about the universe in general.
>
>
    Yep - and I remember when I had MY first beer, too......

:-)

Duane

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!acd4!TEFS1!gvb
From: [e-mail] (<[e-mail]>)
Subject: Re: Contact Notes
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Applied Computing Devices, Inc., Terre Haute IN
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1992 15:47:22 GMT
Lines: 75

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeff) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Michael Corbin) writes:
>
>>I feel that Vallee is one of the most accurate thinkers studying this field. He is a scientist and has solid credentials.  He does not get bogged down in the half-baked pseudo-religious/scientific cult-like thinking so prevalent in the field.  He deals with actual case studies and hard data, drawing some theories from that.
>>
>>Mike
>>
>
>Athough I do respect Mike and the work he does, even if he doesn't alway
>return my email;-)...
>
>I must disagree with his opinion here, and I am quite vocal about it.
>
>Vallee to me, is not to be trusted. I feel it is highly likely that he
>is an intelligence operative, and that is why his "research" conclusions
>can be highly contradictory and confusing. When I read his books, I get
>the impression of a highly logical person that understands compters, with
>an axe to grind (to persuade and confuse us), who is very narrow minded in
>his views of the makeup of reality and the possiblilies that "reality" would
>encompass.
>
>I don't trust his opinions for a nanosecond.
>
>If you want a believable author, read Goode, Lindemann, Stevens, or Howe.
>These people impress me as much more open, human, and unconstrained by
>a "logic" that is entirely anthropromorphic in nature.
>
>And, if Cooper is correct, and Project Grudge Report #13 was written by Hynek,
>then Vallee's early carrer ties with Hynek place his credibilty as highly
>suspect.
>

Jeff,
I have just finished Vallee's revalations, my 7th book in my series of UFO
studies I am conducting. In the book are listed the seven pitfalls to
UFO research. I suggest you read them if you haven't.

Whats really funny to me is this: So many people are willing to believe anything
without the first shred of hard evidence. Hard Evidence? No, lets say ANY
evidence. Vallee is not one of these. He takes nobody's word for anything.
He takes this to somewhat of an extreme to try to balance out some of the
totally ludicrous and unfounded claims people make about this subject.

Although I agree with him on most of his comments, Vallee has trouble with
the abduction scenarios put forth by Budd Hopkins, DMJ and Fowler. He
has trouble admitting that the overwhelming number of abduction experiences
proves anything. I think this is mostly due to his lack of experience in this
area. He goes after bigger fish like MJ12, Roswell and the like. Although
I am not sure we should take the abductions at FULL face value, they are
definately not due to hypnotic leading or psychotic ramblings. Some may be
but most aren't.

For you to accuse Vallee of trying to confuse us is quite laughable. Actually
what he is trying to say is that most of the people that are studying this
area of "forbidden science", as he calls it, are being used by various portions
of our society and/or government to actually get us off the trail a UFOs and
any sort of alien scent. Some people are so easily persuaded of government
coverups, conspiracies, etc., etc., that they are so easily used by the
"confusors" that its comical. The confusor theory is one that I am working
on at present. I could see it before I read Vallees book. Its really somewhat
of a loosely organized yet accidental conspiracy.

Things are starting to take shape for me. I can see a whole lot of stuff now
that I could not only a month ago. However, unlike many who have the mystery
already solved (so they think), I am still searching for the real truth about
this stuff.
>
>Jeff-

Gregg.

--
        Gregg Brown: Serious about UFO Sighting and Abduction Research
    812-442-5354 (Voice)(24 hours/7 days) or e-mail me at [e-mail]
               All information will be strictly confidential.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13154 alt.alien.visitors:11692 alt.religion.kibology:5065
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon,  7 Dec 92 09:56:53 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 66

Subject: Let's Take A Trip In A Space Craft. Part 4.
   I asked him what the white color of his clothing meant and he said it
designated that he was, what we would call, an astrophysicist.  The fellow
in the brown suit was a flight engineer and slso a communications
specialist. His name was Meck-tau.
  The fellow in the orange suit was a geologist; the one in the green was an
ecologist; the one in the violet/purple suit was a cultural sociologist.
These are all equivalents in our language.
  I asked him who he was, where he came from, what he was doing here; that
type of thing.  He explained that these people were members of the
confederation.  I asked him what that was?  He explained it was an
organization of inhabited worlds of MAN, at that time consisting of some 680
worlds.  All of the crew members on board this ship were from different
areas of space. Soltec said he was from Alpha Centauri, (Of course that
stunned me because I thought nothing could move faster than the speed of
light, and I knew that Alpha Centauri was something like 4 and one half
light years away.)
  The fellow in the brown suit was Meck-tau. (He was the one that later
supplied some of the plans for the light-beam equipment that we built.)  He
was also a communications engineer and flight engineer on this particular
ship.
  The one in the orange suit was introduced to me by the name of Boreal and he
was from Altair, which was even further away.
  The one in the gren suit was Tomeck and he was from Uranus.  The fellow in
the purple/violet outfit was named Garold and he was from a star system
called Dorado.
  I also found out that both Garold and Boreal were members of the Galactic
Survey, and I had to have that explained to me as well.
  This particular spaceship had a name. It was called the Phoenix, and was
usually based at the planet Trantor. This was a Galactic Survey scientific
ship and they were here for scientific purposes.
  Soltec explained that one of the things they were doing was measuring
magnetic field anomalies at different places on the planet earth. They were
also checking cosmic radiation in this sector of space, which encompassed
our entire Solar System and out beyond.  They were also surveying the planet
earth attempting to locate earthings who had the potential for telepathic
commnunication.
  This was not the only spaceship that was involved, at the time, in this type
of work. Also, their survey work included the moon as well as the earth.
They were checking something on the moon as well.
  I asked him how long he had been doing this type of thing, because I was
thinking back over all the prior flying saucer type information, clear back
to Ezekiel in the Bible.  He said that this particular task was a current
mission, but that the confederation had been studying and observing the
earth for  million s and millions of years.
  I asked the question, "Besides the things mentioned, what cause MAN to be
interested in the planet earth in the  first place?"
  He spoke then about the earth's uniqueness, how different the earth was from
other worlds. He mentioned that the earth had intrigued them when they first
discovered our Solar System. The Galactic Survey had made a survey of all of
the planets and when they came across earth, they were amazed, because they
had never found any place like it anywhere. So we were extremely important
to them, in that sense.  The thing that really threw them was the
combativeness and competition between life forms on the planet, and also
what he described as the irrational conduct and behavior of these life
forms.
  I asked him if he meant just people? "No, all the life forms that are
present."
  He said another reason they  were here was that the earth was approaching
the end of a cosmic cycle; rather, our whole Solar System was approaching
the end of a cosmic cycle and there was going to be a form of trasition into
a new state.
Source of Information: Star Wards.
End Part 4.
John Winston.

Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13155 alt.alien.visitors:11693
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon,  7 Dec 92 10:04:16 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 31

Subject: Alien Examined. Part 2.
  A report by Dr. J. Allen Hynek was recalled  vividly which indicated that he
had also studied the information provided by this particular case and that
he felt that it was indeed a genuine UFO capture and subsequently the alien
was part of UFO.  Dr. Hynek was noncommittal but did however sign the
report. It also suggested in the report that he did not view the bodies
personally, but viewed photgraphs and enclosed report from autopsies.
  Other photos dealt with a number of bodies which were vivisectioned in
various ways.  At one point a head was removed from the body and
photographed and autopsy was performed on head. The cranium was opened and
brain matter was photographed and evident. Interesting thing about about
photo was that there was a ridge bone or dividing partition type bone
running directly through center of skull, from front to back, as though
dividing two  brains, one from the other. This seemed apparent from the
picture. The skin was removed from the cranial structire and the skull was
laid bare as much as possible.
  At one point the skull was cut directly in half and photo showed an under
developed esophagus and nasal cavities. No clear photo of eye orbs as we
know them, just complete vivisection of skull itself.
  Numerous photos of flesh of the being starting with cutaneous and
subcutaneous microphotagraphic plates.  Appeared to be cellualr studies done
under microscopic and electromicroscopic type photos. Extreme magnification
of tissue sample.
 There are several other details about the report however I have gone over the
allotted number of word requested by the Editor. I will say in closing
however that the story is not yet finished . Even today  the events that
took place those many years ago continue to have an affect upon my life and
the lives of others. It is my hope that one day soon we will have all the
answers. In the meantime keep seeking.
   So that's the end of the article folks.
Source of Information:UFO Universe Magazine August/September 1991.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13156 alt.alien.visitors:11694 sci.skeptic:35548
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon,  7 Dec 92 10:42:00 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 4

Dear Wise People: In regards to the comments made by James, Curtis,
Max, Jeff, Ralph, D, Lucas, Grant, Walter, Rob, and Carl, I appreciate
what you are saying and hope you continue with your search for truth.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13157 alt.alien.visitors:11695 sci.skeptic:35552
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!destroyer!gumby!yale!actcnews!sun1x!simon
From: [e-mail] (Mike Simon)
Subject: Re: No laughing matter.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: United Technologies Research Center
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1992 19:37:19 GMT
Lines: 7

John,

    If he was REALLY SATAN, wouldn't he have sent your mail C.O.D. ???

                                    -- Sluggo --
--
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% [e-mail]  | "I claim this little piece of dirt in the name %%              -- SLUGGO --   | of Duck Dodgers in the 24 & 1/2 century!!!!.." %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!acd4!TEFS1!gvb
From: [e-mail] (<[e-mail]>)
Subject: Re: Howe's An Alien Harvest
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Applied Computing Devices, Inc., Terre Haute IN
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1992 18:47:00 GMT
Lines: 18

In article <[e-mail]> Andy Kurtz <[e-mail]> writes:
>
>BTW:  Does anyone know if the UFO Newsclipping Service and/or the
>journal Stigmata are still around.  If so, could someone pass along
>their addresses.
>thanx, Andy

I just saw the UFO Newsclipping Service in the back of Vallee's book Revalations
that I just finished. Since the copyright on the book was within the last year
or two, I imagine the address would be valid. Email me and I will reply with the
address if you don't get it from somebody else.

Gregg.

--
        Gregg Brown: Serious about UFO Sighting and Abduction Research
    812-442-5354 (Voice)(24 hours/7 days) or e-mail me at [e-mail]
               All information will be strictly confidential.
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:11697 sci.skeptic:35556
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!saimiri.primate.wisc.edu!usenet.coe.montana.edu!news.u.washington.edu!stein.u.washington.edu!sieferme
From: [e-mail] (Eric Sieferman)
Subject: Re: Question for John Winston
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1992 21:52:03 GMT
Lines: 14

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Subject: Sealing The Aura.
(step-by-step plan for sealing the aura, deleted)

John, I followed your plan.  After I sealed my aura,
I returned to read sci.skeptic, and I immediately
noticed that you are still here.

Obviously, my aura must still have holes in it.

--
| Eric Sieferman            |    [e-mail]          |
| U. of W., M.C.I.S.        |    [phone]                     |

Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!uunet!spool.mu.edu!agate!garnet.berkeley.edu!ksanthan
From: [e-mail] (Kumaran Santhanam)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Date: 7 Dec 1992 21:59:17 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Lines: 21
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

John -

     Please, John....who the hell do you think we are?  Why are you trying to
discredit this group?  It's not fair to the rest of us who are armchair ufo-
logists and are simply trying to arrive at the truth.  Did you really think
that you could get away with naming a planet something like Trantor?  Just so
everybody knows where that name came from...It's from Isaac Asimov's science
fiction series "Foundation."  That's where it's from, not from outer space.
I hand it to you, John...you have a fertile imagination.  However, I feel (and
I'm sure a lot of others do too) that you should try to post something a little
more serious and in the spirit of this group.  Post your stories in something
like alt.strange.fiction or something.  This is not meant as a flame, but just
as a polite entreaty to respect our feelings and purpose here.

Thank you,
Kumaran
--
~|  ~/ ~|   ~| ~~\   ~|   .~~\  ~|~~~\  .~~\  ~~\  ~| :: ksanthan@
   /'   |    |  | \ / |   \__ |  `-- /  \__ |  | \  | ::  soda.berkeley.edu
 | \     \_  |  |  /  |  |    |  |  \  |    |  |  \ | ::
 |  `\    __/   |     |  |    |  |   \ |    |  |    | :: "That's how it is!"
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13160 alt.alien.visitors:11699 sci.skeptic:35562
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!ogicse!news.u.washington.edu!stein.u.washington.edu!sieferme
From: [e-mail] (Eric Sieferman)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Lucifer.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Dec 92 22:04:51 GMT
Article-I.D.: u.1992Dec7.220451.27457
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Lines: 15

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Subject: Lucifer Is Alive And Well And He's Living in Sunny Southern
>California.
(usual bogus stuff, deleted)
>   I've read a lot of information written by Ruth Norman and it has a lot of
>truth in it. It seems like some of these Ark Angles are born with everything
>except being smart.

This explains a lot ...

BTW, were these Acute Ark Angles or Obtuse Ark Angles?

--
| Eric Sieferman            |    [e-mail]          |
| U. of W., M.C.I.S.        |    [phone]                     |
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13161 alt.alien.visitors:11700 sci.skeptic:35565
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!ukma!cs.widener.edu!dsinc!ub!acsu.buffalo.edu!boyd
From: [e-mail] (Daniel F Boyd)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: No laughing matter.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Dec 92 22:32:34 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: UB
Lines: 13
Nntp-Posting-Host: lictor.acsu.buffalo.edu

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
> You think you've got problems. I'm now getting E-mail from Satan.

So where is Satan apparently mailing from?

I'm surprised I'm the first one to ask this question.


--
Daniel F. Boyd -- [e-mail]         -a +X -x -e -m -S -F"> "
----------------------------------------------------------------------
((lambda (x) (list x (list (quote quote) x)))
 (quote (lambda (x) (list x (list (quote quote) x)))))
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13162 alt.alien.visitors:11701 sci.skeptic:35570 talk.bizarre:84640
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,talk.bizarre
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!stanford.edu!CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU!csd-d-3.Stanford.EDU!amorgan
From: [e-mail] (Crunchy Frog)
Subject: Re: No laughing matter.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Originator: [e-mail]
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: /usr/lib/news/organizatoin
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1992 23:22:53 GMT
Lines: 47

In article <[e-mail]>
  [e-mail] (Daniel F Boyd) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>> You think you've got problems. I'm now getting E-mail from Satan.
>So where is Satan apparently mailing from?
>I'm surprised I'm the first one to ask this question.

Sorry, guess I'm just a little slow off the mark.  I have taken the
liberty of adding talk.bizarre to this list as I think this discussion
belongs there.  Now, Johnster, a couple of things:

1. How do you know it is Satan?  Maybe he just left himself logged in
   and some minor diabolic type is trying to get him in trouble.

2. Have you considered sending mail to his sysadmin?

% mail [e-mail]
Subject: Satan is bothering me

Someone named Satan (yes, *the* Satan) is sending me nasty e-mail.
Please wipe all his files, remove his account, have him write me
a personal apology, sodomize him, kick him out of his home, delete
his bank balance, and force him to debate homosexuality and NAMBLA
with Clayton Cramer until his brain implodes.

Hugs,
    John_-_-_-_-_Winston

P.S. If you have any "I went to hell and all I got was this lousy
T-Shirt" shirts left, I would really like one.
^D

3. Have you checked the vitamin content of your breakfast cereal lately?

4. Send him email suggesting he debate some of us folks on alt.atheism
   Should be entertaining.

5. Send him email with 200 line sigs containing sections of the Bible.
   This *really* pisses him off for two reasons.  First, for obvious
   reasons he isn't wild about the book.  Second, he pays for his email
   and long messages run up his monthly bill.

6. Write to the Weekly World News and tell them about it.

>Daniel F. Boyd -- [e-mail]         -a +X -x -e -m -S -F"> "

C Frog
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!wupost!spool.mu.edu!olivea!stratus!florida!lpb
From: [e-mail] (Len Bucuvalas)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: About John Winston and others ...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Dec 92 23:45:59 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <pershing.723448895@teal>
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 35

In article <pershing.723448895@teal> [e-mail] (Paul Pershing) writes:
>
>Is there another newsgroup where people can discuss some of these issues
>without having to wade through dozens of posts by folks who subscribe to
>the National Enquirer/Weekly World News perspective?

In defense of those readers: I was told by a relative who had
retired from a very high rank in the military that ... tghe
military and covert agencies will use the rag publications, on
occasion, and print the real truth in there knowing full well
it will be forever viewed as crap by virtue of the document it
was published in.

The problem is in seperating the wheat from the chaff.

>Robert Monroe, author of "Journeys out of the Body" and "Far Journeys"?
>Here's a scientist/engineer who has researched and written about these
>things at a level of sophistication a couple of orders of magnitude
>beyond much of what floats through here.
>Those readers who are asking for "astral projection instructions" should
Can you tell us more about Monroe? A person I know claims to
have the OOB tapes and that they actually work!

>--
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>******** Paul Pershing, Editorial Design/Systems, Rocky Mountain News ********
>**** 400 W. Colfax Ave. Denver 80204 [phone] * Disclaimers, etc. ****
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Len
--
*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*
The accountability of government has gone to the point where the very
use of the law is the instrument of illegality.
        -- Ralph Nader @ Harvard Law School, 1/15/92
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!news.service.uci.edu!ucivax!megatek!max
From: [e-mail] (Max Elliot)
Subject: Re: About John Winston and others ...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California
References: <pershing.723448895@teal>
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1992 23:27:41 GMT
Lines: 16

From article <pershing.723448895@teal>, by [e-mail] (Paul Pershing):
>
> Is there another newsgroup where people can discuss some of these issues
> without having to wade through dozens of posts by folks who subscribe to

  I would like to be able to separate the wheat from the chaff myself as
  well.  So, I would propose that one of the long timers post a list of
  the names and e-mail addresses of the *serious* researchers. (with
  their permissions, of course).  This list would be very helpful in
  allowing those who strive for sane discussion to contact each other,
  and build a network of communication outside the framework of this
  loosely knit band of apes and philosophers.

  Cheers!

-Max
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!uunet!munnari.oz.au!yoyo.aarnet.edu.au!news.adelaide.edu.au!ijameson
From: [e-mail] (Iain Jameson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: ftp archive site
Date: 8 Dec 1992 00:17:23 GMT
Organization: The University of Adelaide
Lines: 7
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: flare.physics.adelaide.edu.au

Excuse me

Is there an ftp archive site for this news group?

Thanks.

Iain.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13164 alt.alien.visitors:11705 sci.skeptic:35575
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!convex!schumach
From: [e-mail] (Richard A. Schumacher)
Subject: Re: No laughing matter.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (news access account)
Nntp-Posting-Host: starman.convex.com
Organization: CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx., USA
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1992 00:31:03 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.
Lines: 17


>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:

>|>Dear Humans and Serious Investigators.
>|>It seems that we must be serious about everything from here on out.
>|>You think you've got problems. I'm now getting E-mail from Satan.
>|>I tell you folks it's serious. We can't have this. The strange things
>|>about this is that in regards to my posting, he likes it, he likes it.
>|>Heavenly days what shall I do?

Clearly, you must repost, to every Net group you can think of, everything
He sends you. Share it with an expectant world! What says the Prince of
Evil, Lord of Darkness, Our Master Below?



...NOT.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13165 alt.alien.visitors:11706
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!darwin.sura.net!haven.umd.edu!uunet!unislc!erc
From: [e-mail] (Ed Carp)
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
References: <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Unisys Corporation SLC
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1992 00:14:58 GMT
Lines: 12

[e-mail] wrote:

: brain matter was photographed and evident. Interesting thing about about
: photo was that there was a ridge bone or dividing partition type bone
: running directly through center of skull, from front to back, as though
: dividing two  brains, one from the other. This seemed apparent from the

They found a Klingon?!?! :) :)
--
Ed Carp            [e-mail], [e-mail]    801/538-0177

Who and what would you be if you went beyond your deepest fears?
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13167 alt.alien.visitors:11707 alt.religion.kibology:5070
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!uunet!unislc!erc
From: [e-mail] (Ed Carp)
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
References: <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Unisys Corporation SLC
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1992 00:24:31 GMT
Lines: 11

[e-mail] wrote:

:   This particular spaceship had a name. It was called the Phoenix, and was
: usually based at the planet Trantor. This was a Galactic Survey scientific
: ship and they were here for scientific purposes.

I can see that someone's been reading the Foundation series by Asimov. :)
--
Ed Carp            [e-mail], [e-mail]    801/538-0177

Who and what would you be if you went beyond your deepest fears?
Xref: icaen sci.skeptic:35576 sci.astro:23903 sci.space:38684 alt.alien.visitors:11708
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,sci.astro,sci.space,alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!spool.mu.edu!umn.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!mvp
From: [e-mail] (Mike Van Pelt)
Subject: Re: STS-48 and "SDI": Oberg vs. Hoagland
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1992 00:47:01 GMT
Lines: 24

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Robert Sheaffer may be "Skepticus Maximus", but for the rest of us
>with open minds, please consider the source.

That works both ways -- Hoagland is rather notorious for becoming
wildly enthusiastic about stuff that he's somewhat clue-impaired on.
After all, he's a journalist, not a scientist, though his science
knowledge is definitely on the high end for journalists.  He's also a
fascinating speaker when he gets the bit in his teeth.  Did you ever
see his "Thing in the Ring" presentation?  Decent science fiction based
on a puzzling item in Saturns rings, which turned out to have a more
mundane cause than Hoagland's admitted speculations. Then there's his
"Pyramids of Mars" hobby-horse, which maybe makes a fair Dr. Who episode.

I don't know anything about his latest, but it sounds like part of
a downward slide in credibility.

Like you said, consider the source.

--
Mike Van Pelt          | What happens if a big asteroid hits Earth?
[e-mail]         | Judging from realistic simulations involving a
                       | sledge hammer and a common laboratory frog, we
                       | can assume it will be pretty bad. -- Dave Barry
Xref: icaen sci.skeptic:35578 sci.astro:23905 sci.space:38690 alt.alien.visitors:11709
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!wupost!udel!gvls1!tredysvr!cellar!revpk
From: [e-mail] (Brian 'Rev P-K' Siano)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,sci.astro,sci.space,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: STS-48 and "SDI": Oberg vs. Hoagland
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Dec 92 23:21:20 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (The Cellar BBS)
Organization: The Cellar BBS and public access system
Lines: 31

[e-mail] writes:

> James Oberg will _of course_ have an explanation.  He is a member of
> PSICOP and works with Philip Klass, THE well-known skeptic "nothing-
> is-real" other famous member of PSICOP.  I've been seeing more and
> more things from Oberg lately, and I *never* see this connection
> mentioned, only his NASA ties.
>
> Robert Sheaffer may be "Skepticus Maximus", but for the rest of us
> with open minds, please consider the source.
>
> Barb

    Uh, that's "CSICOP."

    Now, granted, such a gaffe is a strong indication that I'm not going
to get a very substantial answer to my next question, I'll ask it anyway;
since when does association with CSICOP automatically discredit what one has
to say? Frankly, Oberg's credits re NASA and research onthe Soviet space
program are pretty strong, and are certainly relevant-- more so than the
CSICOP info.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian "Rev. P-K" Siano                                  [e-mail]
Servo: "Dianetics, by L. Ron Hubbard."
Joel:  "Why is my life messed up? Page 74."
Servo: "When will this movie end? Page 155."
Crow:  "How much money can we get out of Tom Cruise? Page 85."
                                       "Mystery Science Theater 3000,"
                                       during a volcano scene in
                                       "Hercules and the Moon Men."
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13168 alt.alien.visitors:11710 sci.skeptic:35582 talk.bizarre:84668
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!news.service.uci.edu!cerritos.edu!arizona.edu!arizona!amethyst!organpipe.uug.arizona.edu!helium!corleyj
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,talk.bizarre
Subject: Re: No laughing matter.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
From: [e-mail] (Jason D Corley )
Date: 8 Dec 92 01:28:04 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Arizona, Tucson, AZ
Lines: 22

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Crunchy Frog) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>
>  [e-mail] (Daniel F Boyd) writes:
>>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>>> You think you've got problems. I'm now getting E-mail from Satan.
>>So where is Satan apparently mailing from?
>>I'm surprised I'm the first one to ask this question.
>
>Sorry, guess I'm just a little slow off the mark.  I have taken the

Well, I think everyone knows THAT.  He's mailing from the same
site that carrys the alt.horror.cthulhu stuff-- kadath.plains.icy.unknown!

Sheesh!

And I think John Winston is no more loony than the people who keep
yelling at him instead of putting his name in their kill files.
Besides, I don't get the Weekly World News, so I am often eager to
hear the truth.  You guys are just persecuting him.

[insert smileys for the humor impaired]
    Jason
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!darwin.sura.net!spool.mu.edu!umn.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!jeffp
From: [e-mail] (Jeff)
Subject: Re: Howe's An Alien Harvest
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: BeHereNow
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1992 03:53:15 GMT
Lines: 24

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (<[e-mail]>) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> Andy Kurtz <[e-mail]> writes:
>>
>>BTW:  Does anyone know if the UFO Newsclipping Service and/or the
>>journal Stigmata are still around.  If so, could someone pass along
>>their addresses.
>>thanx, Andy
>
>I just saw the UFO Newsclipping Service in the back of Vallee's book Revalations
>that I just finished. Since the copyright on the book was within the last year
>or two, I imagine the address would be valid. Email me and I will reply with the
>address if you don't get it from somebody else.
>
>Gregg.

This should be in the FAQ, at least it was in what I sent to the FAQ compiler.

Gregg,

sounds like you need to get together with Max.
Jeff-



Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13169 alt.alien.visitors:11712 alt.religion.kibology:5074
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!darwin.sura.net!spool.mu.edu!umn.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!jeffp
From: [e-mail] (Jeff)
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: BeHereNow
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1992 04:02:15 GMT
Lines: 36

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Subject: Let's Take A Trip In A Space Craft. Part 4.
>   I asked him what the white color of his clothing meant and he said it
>designated that he was, what we would call, an astrophysicist.  The fellow
>in the brown suit was a flight engineer and slso a communications
>specialist. His name was Meck-tau.
>  The fellow in the orange suit was a geologist; the one in the green was an
>ecologist; the one in the violet/purple suit was a cultural sociologist.
>These are all equivalents in our language.
>  I asked him who he was, where he came from, what he was doing here; that
>type of thing.  He explained that these people were members of the
>confederation.  I asked him what that was?  He explained it was an
>organization of inhabited worlds of MAN, at that time consisting of some 680
>worlds.  All of the crew members on board this ship were from different
>areas of space. Soltec said he was from Alpha Centauri, (Of course that
>stunned me because I thought nothing could move faster than the speed of
>light, and I knew that Alpha Centauri was something like 4 and one half

>Source of Information: Star Wards.
>End Part 4.
>John Winston.
>


John,

interesting book.

Who wrote Star Wards?

Maybe Mr. Asimov knows more than we imagine;-)


Jeff-


Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!darwin.sura.net!spool.mu.edu!umn.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!jeffp
From: [e-mail] (Jeff)
Subject: Re: Contact Notes
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: BeHereNow
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1992 04:17:49 GMT
Lines: 72

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (<[e-mail]>) writes:

>I have just finished Vallee's revalations, my 7th book in my series of UFO
>studies I am conducting. In the book are listed the seven pitfalls to
>UFO research. I suggest you read them if you haven't.
>
>Whats really funny to me is this: So many people are willing to believe anything
>without the first shred of hard evidence. Hard Evidence? No, lets say ANY
>evidence. Vallee is not one of these. He takes nobody's word for anything.
>He takes this to somewhat of an extreme to try to balance out some of the
>totally ludicrous and unfounded claims people make about this subject.
>
>Although I agree with him on most of his comments, Vallee has trouble with
>the abduction scenarios put forth by Budd Hopkins, DMJ and Fowler. He
>has trouble admitting that the overwhelming number of abduction experiences
>proves anything. I think this is mostly due to his lack of experience in this
>area. He goes after bigger fish like MJ12, Roswell and the like. Although
>I am not sure we should take the abductions at FULL face value, they are
>definately not due to hypnotic leading or psychotic ramblings. Some may be
>but most aren't.
>
>For you to accuse Vallee of trying to confuse us is quite laughable. Actually
>what he is trying to say is that most of the people that are studying this
>area of "forbidden science", as he calls it, are being used by various portions
>of our society and/or government to actually get us off the trail a UFOs and
>any sort of alien scent. Some people are so easily persuaded of government
>coverups, conspiracies, etc., etc., that they are so easily used by the
>"confusors" that its comical. The confusor theory is one that I am working
>on at present. I could see it before I read Vallees book. Its really somewhat
>of a loosely organized yet accidental conspiracy.
>
>Things are starting to take shape for me. I can see a whole lot of stuff now
>that I could not only a month ago. However, unlike many who have the mystery
>already solved (so they think), I am still searching for the real truth about
>this stuff.
>>
>>Jeff-
>
>Gregg.
>


Well, I'll tell you a little story...

There was this fairly bright 14 year old that found Jr. High school pretty boring, but he didn't really enjoy math, so that put him in an independant study
class, and he studied what ever he wanted to, so he specialized in UFO's and
sociology, before becoming interested in music a few years later.

And he read every book there was on UFO's (in 1975) and wrote papers and gave
presentations to the entire school on what he was studing. This interest
has survived for him for the past 15 years. And he has read about 100 books
on the subject, as well as found many other sources and befriended several
prominent researchers.

And then he met JW, and realized that the more you know, the wierder you get,
because your mind becomes expanded into a more open state that can comprehend
a very complex puzzle that centers around spirituality. JW has probably read
several hundred books on this subject.

And then he read JV, and realized that the guy just doesn't get it. And he
wondered if there was a reason for this, outside of just being a myopic
individual. Is there a hidden agenda there?

You be the judge. But for me, the guy ain't even close. He has no appreciation
for sociological insight that sez "if thousands of people tell the same tail,
hard evidence or no, there is something very serious going on that is
most likely just exactly what they think it is". (Abduction)

Jeff-



Xref: icaen alt.religion.scientology:3584 alt.religion.kibology:5080 alt.slack:4853 alt.alien.visitors:11714
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology,alt.religion.kibology,alt.slack,alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!eff!world!kibo
From: [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry)
Subject: Re: DECEMBER 18,1992
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Two rooms filled with typography, in downtown Boston
References: <SaN=[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1992 07:00:23 GMT
Lines: 10

[from alt.religion.scientology]
In article <SaN=[e-mail]> [e-mail] (David Bonnell) writes:
>A suprise is coming on Dec 18, 1992.

Big fat hairy deal.  With Kibology, every day is a surprise.  Every day
is equally different in EXACTLY THE SAME WAY!  Enjoy Kibology, and you
won't believe how low you level of disbelief can be.

                            -- K.

Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!think.com!sdd.hp.com!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!ohstpy!vancleef
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Dec 92 01:59:39 EST
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: world
Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Physics
Lines: 40

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Kumaran Santhanam) writes:
> John -
>
>      Please, John....who the hell do you think we are?  Why are you trying to
> discredit this group?  It's not fair to the rest of us who are armchair ufo-
> logists and are simply trying to arrive at the truth.  Did you really think
> that you could get away with naming a planet something like Trantor?  Just so
> everybody knows where that name came from...It's from Isaac Asimov's science
> fiction series "Foundation."  That's where it's from, not from outer space.
> I hand it to you, John...you have a fertile imagination.  However, I feel (and
> I'm sure a lot of others do too) that you should try to post something a little
> more serious and in the spirit of this group.  Post your stories in something
> like alt.strange.fiction or something.  This is not meant as a flame, but just
> as a polite entreaty to respect our feelings and purpose here.
>

His purpose is to discredit this group. Pretty slick I'd say! His persistence
is incredible. Only someone trying to discredit this group would maintain
such persistence...

> Thank you,
> Kumaran
> --
> ~|  ~/ ~|   ~| ~~\   ~|   .~~\  ~|~~~\  .~~\  ~~\  ~| :: ksanthan@
>    /'   |    |  | \ / |   \__ |  `-- /  \__ |  | \  | ::  soda.berkeley.edu
>  | \     \_  |  |  /  |  |    |  |  \  |    |  |  \ | ::
>  |  `\    __/   |     |  |    |  |   \ |    |  |    | :: "That's how it is!"



    _/_/_/_/   _/_/   _/_/_/    _/_/_/    _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/
   _/        _/  _/  _/    _/  _/    _/  _/          _/       _/
  _/  _/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/  _/_/_/_/  _/_/_/      _/       _/
 _/    _/ _/    _/ _/  _/    _/  _/    _/          _/       _/
_/_/_/_/ _/    _/ _/    _/  _/    _/  _/_/_/_/    _/       _/





Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13170 alt.alien.visitors:11716 sci.skeptic:35596 talk.bizarre:84704
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!destroyer!fmsrl7!ef2007!pms706!ekimmina
From: [e-mail] (Eric Kimminau)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,talk.bizarre
Subject: Re: No laughing matter.
Date: 8 Dec 1992 12:12:53 GMT
Organization: Ford Motor Company
Lines: 19
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pms001.pms.ford.com


|> 2. Have you considered sending mail to his sysadmin?
|>
|> % mail [e-mail]
|> Subject: Satan is bothering me
|>
|> Someone named Satan (yes, *the* Satan) is sending me nasty e-mail.
|> Please wipe all his files, remove his account, have him write me
|> a personal apology, sodomize him, kick him out of his home, delete
|> his bank balance, and force him to debate homosexuality and NAMBLA
|> with Clayton Cramer until his brain implodes.
|>
|> Hugs,
|>     John_-_-_-_-_Winston
|>
|> P.S. If you have any "I went to hell and all I got was this lousy
|> T-Shirt" shirts left, I would really like one.

I have to tell you that I gave the required milk out the nose offering while reading this. Thanks!
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!spool.mu.edu!agate!doc.ic.ac.uk!mrccrc!sgamble
From: [e-mail] (Steve Gamble x3293)
Subject: Mothmen
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: tin
Organization: MRC Human Genome Resource Centre
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1992 11:46:39 GMT
Lines: 19

I am interested in the Mothmen, which seemed to be involved with
UFOs. Most of the reports seem to come from West Viginia in the
USA from the mid-1960s. These have been extensively researched
by John Keel.

I would be interested in any information about Mothmen, especially
from locations other than W.V. and at times other than the 1960s.
(But all information is welcomed)

Thanks,

Steve


--
(Disclaimer: These are not my employer's opinions, they may not even be mine!)
Steve Gamble, Computing Services, Clinical Research Centre and Human Genome
Mapping Project Resource Centre, Watford Road, Harrow, Middlesex, HA1 3UJ, UK.
Phone: [phone]  JANET: [e-mail] INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!europa.asd.contel.com!darwin.sura.net!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbnewsk!cbnewsj!att-out!rutgers!igor.rutgers.edu!dropout.rutgers.edu!mcgrew
From: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Opinions about the FAQ file
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Dec 92 05:37:01 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
Lines: 67


    [e-mail] (anonymous posting) writes:
        First of all, it shouldn't be a database of UFO-orientated
        organizations.

... I disagree.  When I first got interested in the subject, all the
addresses I could find were very old, and some for organizations
(APRO, for instance) did not exist any more.  (The average library
does not carry the UFO Encyclopedia...)  I wasted months finding out
the right addresses for the various groups.  If the faq had been
around back then, I'd have been able to get started much more
quickly.

    It makes the FAQ look like an advertisment for them. I think
    it's just an attempt to make money!

... you are in error.   (Running an amateur group of any sort
generally costs, not makes, money.)

        And then, about the facts in FAQ: There are very few of them.
        Sure, all types of alien encounterings are explained, but
        then again, descriptions of alien races!

... perhaps you just don't ask the same questions as others do.  I
don't believe everything in the FAQ file, but if a reader wants to
know the current ideas (including the weird ones), I think its
just fine.

        And, a very common mistake is found too many times in the
        text: The word UFO stands for Unidentified Flying Object.

... another very common mistake is taking oneself too seriously.
Breath and just relax, ok?

        On whole, the FAQ is very one-sided. It tries to
        convince people that aliens exist.

... since it is the FAQ for alt.alien.visitors, that's hardly
surprising.  Perhaps you should drum up support for a sci.skeptic faq
(though I suspect it would be much shorter :-)  You might notice that
information on "skeptical" groups is actually included in the a.a.v faq.

    And the list says that
        all skeptics are trying to do is to prove that
        aliens don't exist. This is totally wrong. Anyone
        recall what skeptic stands for? Or what skeptics do?

... the "skeptic" label is taken by the anti-ufo (or whatever you wish
to call them) folks themselves.  But since you asked:

Concise Oxford Dictionary, 8th Ed., Copyright 1991 Oxford Univ. Press

/sceptic/ <<"skeptIk>> n. & adj. /([US] /skeptic/)/
n.
1. a person inclined to doubt all accepted opinions; a cynic.
2. [Relig]a person who doubts the truth of Christianity and other religions.
3. [Philos][hist.] a person who accepts the philosophy of Pyrrhonism.

        And if you want to say why or why not you believe in alien
        visitors,

... in point of fact, it doesn't matter what I believe at all.  I find
the FAQ a very useful thing; in fact, I think its such a good idea
I've contributed a few tidbits here and there to it.  Perhaps you
should too!

Charles
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!europa.asd.contel.com!darwin.sura.net!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbnewsk!cbnewsj!att-out!rutgers!igor.rutgers.edu!dropout.rutgers.edu!mcgrew
From: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ftp archive site
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Dec 92 05:41:04 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
Lines: 10
To: [e-mail]


    [e-mail] (Iain Jameson)
    Is there an ftp archive site for this news group?

... try ftp.uiowa.edu; directory archive/aav (there is also a paranet
and some other newsgroup's archives there.)

Hope this helps,

Charles
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13171 alt.alien.visitors:11720 sci.skeptic:35598 talk.bizarre:84711
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,talk.bizarre
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!uunet!enterpoop.mit.edu!bloom-picayune.mit.edu!athena.mit.edu!dmsilev
From: [e-mail] (Daniel M Silevitch)
Subject: Re: No laughing matter.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News system)
Nntp-Posting-Host: w20-575-70.mit.edu
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1992 13:56:06 GMT
Lines: 14

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Eric Kimminau) writes:
|>
|> |> 2. Have you considered sending mail to his sysadmin?
|> |>
|> |> % mail [e-mail]
                  ^^^^^^^^
|> |> Subject: Satan is bothering me
|> |>

What makes you think that hell is an edu site? I think that the correct
e-mail adress is root@9th_circle.hell :)

Daniel Silevitch                             [e-mail]
Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13172 alt.alien.visitors:11721 sci.skeptic:35599 talk.bizarre:84712 alt.flame:46952
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,talk.bizarre,alt.flame
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!wupost!gumby!yale!actcnews!sun1x!scottb
From: [e-mail] (Scottb)
Subject: Re: No laughing matter.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Hell.edu
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1992 13:59:11 GMT
Lines: 33

[e-mail] (Jason D Corley) writes:
: In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Crunchy Frog) writes:
: >In article <[e-mail]>
: >  [e-mail] (Daniel F Boyd) writes:
: >>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
: >>> You think you've got problems. I'm now getting E-mail from Satan.
: >>So where is Satan apparently mailing from?
: >>I'm surprised I'm the first one to ask this question.
: >
: >Sorry, guess I'm just a little slow off the mark.  I have taken the
:
: Well, I think everyone knows THAT.  He's mailing from the same
: site that carrys the alt.horror.cthulhu stuff-- kadath.plains.icy.unknown!
:
: Sheesh!
:
: And I think John Winston is no more loony than the people who keep
: yelling at him instead of putting his name in their kill files.
: Besides, I don't get the Weekly World News, so I am often eager to
: hear the truth.  You guys are just persecuting him.
:
: [insert smileys for the humor impaired]
Perhaps we should move this to alf.flame.  It looks like we are all having fun
"persecuting" him.  John, perhaps you can tell us (or post actual msg) what satan
is saying in his e-mail to you?  Inquiring minds need to know.

Beezlebub
aka
--
Scottb
[e-mail]
Disclaimer:  I didn't do it!  Nobody saw me do it!  You can't prove anything!
             My opinions are my own.   They do not reflect anyone/thing else!
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13173 alt.alien.visitors:11722 sci.skeptic:35600
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue,  8 Dec 92 06:21:37 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 8

Dear Humans: Yes you caught me those angels were not angles. I have an
important announcement to make. The OOBE train will be going in for
repair until Jan.5, 1993 due to the fact that our driver and engineer
(the person who we call E.) plans to stay earth bound for a little
while during the holiday season. The person who calls himself Satan
lives in the UK and if I get his permission I'll put his E-mail address
on the Net so you people can converse with him.
John Winston
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13174 alt.alien.visitors:11723
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue,  8 Dec 92 06:26:22 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Dear Autopsy Experts: I believe you will find they found a Z.R. and
I don't mean a member of a social club.
John Winston.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!malgudi.oar.net!hyperion!desire.wright.edu!ehughes
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: New Person info?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Dec 92 08:30:42 EST
Organization:  Wright State University
Lines: 6

Hi!  I have been monitering this group for a while and I would like to know
when the "new person" files will be reposted.  I have been having problems
extacting information this week, and lost my copy.

Thanks,
Eric
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13175 alt.alien.visitors:11725 alt.religion.kibology:5091
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue,  8 Dec 92 06:35:13 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Dear Book Reviewers: I believe you will find the Richard Miller wrote
Star Wards.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13176 alt.alien.visitors:11726 sci.skeptic:35602
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!ub!dsinc!satalink!ray.rooney
From: [e-mail] (Ray Rooney)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Alien Ships.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 7 Dec 92 01:22:00 GMT
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Ray Rooney)
Organization: Datamax/Satalink Connection * Ivyland, PA [phone]
Lines: 13

To: [e-mail] (Molly Olver)

MO>Why is it that all of the alien races you mentioned only resemble
MO>caucasians?  Space doesn't seem to be a very integrated place to
MO>live.

Yes, strange, isn't it?

For that matter, how many abductees (beside Barney Hill) are black,
oriental, etc.?

 * SLMR 2.1a * Support the right to arm Sasquatch.

Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13177 alt.alien.visitors:11727 sci.skeptic:35604 talk.bizarre:84727
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,talk.bizarre
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!destroyer!gumby!yale!actcnews!sun1x!simon
From: [e-mail] (Mike Simon)
Subject: Re: No laughing matter.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: United Technologies Research Center
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1992 15:36:14 GMT
Lines: 21


Hey John, I heard you made the Top Ten List for Headlines in Hell:

10) Hitler Welcomes Mengele in Touching Ceremony.
 9) Icewater Canceled -- Again !!
 8) Slumbering Carnivorous Worms Awaken in Very Bad Mood.
 7) Satan Vows: "Steinbrenner's My Man for the Entire Season..."
 6) Authorities Announce: Everything to feel "Itchier".
 5) Most Residents Prefer Flame-Broiling to Frying.
*4) Lucifer PO'd: "John better write back or I'm shrink-rapping his penis!"
 3) Welcome Party for Ayatollah Best Ever.
 2) Roy Cohn to host Networking Barbecue Show.
 1) Were Getting Cable!

                                            "Hecubus" Sluggo
                                            666 1/2 Hell Ave
                                            Eternal damnation, HL 66666-6666


--
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% [e-mail]  | "I claim this little piece of dirt in the name %%              -- SLUGGO --   | of Duck Dodgers in the 24 & 1/2 century!!!!.." %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13178 alt.alien.visitors:11728 sci.skeptic:35605
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!saimiri.primate.wisc.edu!usenet.coe.montana.edu!news.u.washington.edu!stein.u.washington.edu!sieferme
From: [e-mail] (Eric Sieferman)
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1992 16:51:42 GMT
Lines: 25

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Dear Humans: Yes you caught me those angels were not angles. I have an
>important announcement to make. The OOBE train will be going in for
>repair until Jan.5, 1993 due to the fact that our driver and engineer
>(the person who we call E.)

Unnamed reliable sources report that this E. works for
British Secret Service, in the same office with M. and Q.

>plans to stay earth bound for a little
>while during the holiday season. The person who calls himself Satan
>lives in the UK and if I get his permission I'll put his E-mail address
>on the Net so you people can converse with him.

This is incorrect.  Santa lives in a shopping mall next to
my office building.  I have seen him, and for a small fee
I can have a photo taken of Santa and me.

>John Winston


--
| Eric Sieferman            |    [e-mail]          |
| U. of W., M.C.I.S.        |    [phone]                     |

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!uunet!noc.near.net!news.cs.brandeis.edu!binah.cc.brandeis.edu!CORBISIER
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Oberg & spelling
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Brandeis University
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1992 17:39:22 GMT
Lines: 22

Yes, I am aware that I spelled "CSICOP" as "PSICOP", as so many of you
were kind enough to point out in postings and private e-mail.  And yes,
I am aware that Oberg does have substantial knowledge in the field of
space technology, and I have no intention of attacking that.  Oberg is
or appears to be a very intelligent man.  However, what I _am_
questioning is the fact that his ties with CSICOP (I'll spell it
right this time so nobody gets upset :) ) are never mentioned, and I
feel that they should be, because it establishes his skeptic status.

As for the tape itself, yes, I have seen the shuttle tape, and I do not
feel that the "ice crystals" explanation is sufficient.  It appeared to
me that the light/ice crystal moved away at a right angle _before_ the
beam/thruster went through, and I do not know of any ice crystal having
the presence of mind to move away _before_ something hits or moves it.

I cannot say anything about Hoagland, since I haven't read anything by
him, and know nothing about him.

Gee, so this is what it's like to be flamed.  JW, now I know how you
feel!

Barb
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!uunet!olivea!decwrl!deccrl!news.crl.dec.com!dbased.nuo.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!ryn.mro4.dec.com!est.enet.dec.com!randolph
From: [e-mail] (Tom Randolph)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: The 12th Planet
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Dec 92 19:08:14 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 26


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Josh 'K' Hopkins) writes...
>[e-mail] (Joan Cole) writes:
>
>>What is the debunking opinion about Zachariah Sitchin's books about the
>>supposed planet on a comet-like orbit which has a period of 3600 years?
>>Credibility wise, is this guy closer to Von Daniken in the quality of his
>>research or does anyone have any respect for his work?
>
>A 3600 year orbit suggests to me that it would go far enough away from the sun
>to be unstable over a long period of time - i.e. other stars would have
>significant effects on it's orbit.  Sounds like garbage to me.
>--
>Josh Hopkins                                          [e-mail]

Don't dismiss it too quickly. Similar things have been seriously considered in
the astronomy world to try to explain an apparent periodic bombardment of the
Earth by comets. The proposed object was dubbed "Nemesis", and I beleive it was
thought to be a brown-dwarf type of object - sort of half way between planet
and star.

Now, don't take this as Gospel - no proof that such objects exist has been
forthcoming, but there is some circumstantial evidence that supports it - the
outermost planets have some as yet unaccounted-for motion in their orbits,
besides the above mentioned comet bombardment.
-Tom R.   [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!usc!news.service.uci.edu!ucivax!megatek!max
From: [e-mail] (Max Elliot)
Subject: Serious info request
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1992 17:30:50 GMT
Lines: 13

   I am going to have a little time after the holidays and I was
   hoping to do some serious research. I have heard numerous
   stories of alien facilities in the desert areas of the southwest.
   Can anyone out there corroborate any of them?  Does anyone have
   any FIRST hand information.  Has anyone been to a site and found
   anything?  I am willing to investigate first hand and share my
   findings with the group, if I can be convinced that there is a
   reason to do so.  Any takers?  Anyone want to go with? (I love
   the desert anyway and would probably take this trip in any case)

   Cheers!
-Max

Xref: icaen alt.conspiracy:20564 alt.alien.visitors:11732
Newsgroups: dit.talk,alt.conspiracy,alt.alien.visitors,uk.misc
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!pipex!cam-cl!pavo.csi.cam.ac.uk!cast0.ast.cam.ac.uk!pbt
From: [e-mail] (Philip Taylor)
Subject: Re: Wembley, AIDS, and the Illuminati
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET news)
Nntp-Posting-Host: soulianis.ast.cam.ac.uk
Organization: Royal Greenwich Observatory
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1992 17:43:20 GMT
Lines: 19

I was sent a leaflet through the post advertising this event - which mailing list
did they use to get my address? Is this a conspiracy? 8-)

I would also be interested to know who is behind this Wembley event. According
to an item in the 'Guardian' today, they have currently sold all of 51 tickets
for the event - only 23,949 tickets left - Hurry!

--

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Philip Taylor,
Software Engineering Group,                  INTERNET : [e-mail]
Royal Greenwich Observatory,
Madingley Road,
CAMBRIDGE.
CB3 0EZ.
UK
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13179 alt.alien.visitors:11733 sci.skeptic:35619
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!gumby!yale!actcnews!sun1x!simon
From: [e-mail] (Mike Simon)
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: United Technologies Research Center
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1992 20:04:12 GMT
Lines: 7

?nhoJ deffinS uoY evaH eulG ledoM hcuM woH
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
       Oh My GOD !!!   Satan was in my Keyboard!!!!


--
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% [e-mail]  | "I claim this little piece of dirt in the name %%              -- SLUGGO --   | of Duck Dodgers in the 24 & 1/2 century!!!!.." %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!wupost!cs.utexas.edu!sun-barr!male.EBay.Sun.COM!eb5ts4.EBay.Sun.COM!warriors
From: [e-mail] (Dave Maycon)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Supernatural Stories
Date: 8 Dec 1992 20:41:10 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.  Mt. View, Ca.
Lines: 7
Distribution: usa
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Dave Maycon)
NNTP-Posting-Host: eb5ts4.ebay.sun.com

Can somebody tell me which net has the Ghost stories and all that
other good stuff about the unexplained.

gee thanx

Dave

Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13180 alt.alien.visitors:11735 sci.skeptic:35625
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!haven.umd.edu!decuac!pa.dec.com!engage.pko.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!ryn.mro4.dec.com!est.enet.dec.com!randolph
From: [e-mail] (Tom Randolph)
Subject: Re: Alien Ships.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date:  8 DEC 92 13:14:19
Lines: 28


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Carl J Lydick) writes...
>In article <[e-mail]>, "James F. Tims" <[e-mail]> writes:
>>The conjecture that early Egyptians
>>couldn't achieve the precision we find in the stones' intersticing
>>without extraterrestrial help seems to be without any merit
>>whatsoever.
>
>Especially given the fact that anybody with three stones, some grinding
>compound, and lots of patience can easily produce three optically flat
>surfaces.
>Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: [e-mail] | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Yes, and I think this needs a little elaboration. If you've never been into
amateur astronomy, you've probably never heard of any such thing. The fact is
that it's not all that difficult to get surfaces flat to within a wavelength of
light (millionths of an inch) by simply grinding them together in the right
way. People hear "precision" and imagine micrometers and computer controlled
milling machines. No such thing needed if you have plenty of time, patience,
muscle power, and know-how.

I've read of modern antropologists who took an active approach to some of these
questions, and attempted to re-learn how the ancients shaped stone. The
conclusion was that stone could be shaped pretty precisely simply by whacking
it with another stone, slowly grinding it to shape bit by bit, and
experimentally shaping and fitting it until it was perfect. No CNC machining
required.
-Tom R.   [e-mail]
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13181 alt.alien.visitors:11736 sci.skeptic:35626
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!haven.umd.edu!decuac!pa.dec.com!engage.pko.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!ryn.mro4.dec.com!est.enet.dec.com!randolph
From: [e-mail] (Tom Randolph)
Subject: Re: Alien Ships.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date:  8 DEC 92 13:34:26
Lines: 15


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes...
>Let's clear something up here and now.  I never said it was impossible to build
>pyramids without ET assistance.  I know it's possible, of course it is.
>    What I did say was that it was aliens who DID build (or supervise) the
>construction of many Egyptian pyramids.  The pyramids contained their power
>source (crystal?).  The power source had to be contained inside the double
>pyramid.
>   So whoever started this thread about how easy it is to build pyramids can
>just about blimming well shut up, alright?
>**Lucas**

Oh, ok, gotcha. It wasn't something demonstrable or falsifiable that you said.
It was something no one can prove or disprove, so it MUST be true.
-Tom R.   [e-mail]
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mcsun!Germany.EU.net!news.netmbx.de!mailgzrz.TU-Berlin.DE!mailszrz.zrz.tu-berlin.de!ruekahs1
From: [e-mail] (Georg Rueckriem)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: A*L*I*E*N D*O*G underway
Date: 8 Dec 1992 21:37:56 GMT
Organization: ZRZ/TU-Berlin
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: mailszrz.zrz.tu-berlin.de
Keywords: dog


Would you feed an A*L*I*E*N D*O*G ?

What would you think of an alien dog scratching at your screen?
Would you let him in?
Would you offer a cookie?
If it happens to you always remember: it will have the long way back to
Berlin, Germany to bring us the story!

Chipper
e-mail:[e-mail]
~ZZ

Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13182 alt.alien.visitors:11738 sci.skeptic:35632
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!tamsun.tamu.edu!venus.tamu.edu!dbn7350
From: [e-mail] (NASH, DAVID BENNETT III)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: No laughing matter.
Date: 8 Dec 1992 16:08 CST
Organization: Texas A&M University, Academic Computing Services
Lines: 26
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: venus.tamu.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes...
>Dear Humans and Serious Investigators.
>It seems that we must be serious about everything from here on out.
>You think you've got problems. I'm now getting E-mail from Satan.
>I tell you folks it's serious. We can't have this. The strange things
>about this is that in regards to my posting, he likes it, he likes it.
>Heavenly days what shall I do?
>John Winston.

Wow.

Where do you get your fix, John?

This man is on some serious drugs. This man could be a lot of fun
to be with.  Go out and bomb your mind with the drugs of John's
choice, then just hang out and be astral or some shit like that.

Oh yea, and kill lab rats on an alter to the great (Shish)Kibo(b).

This has got to be better that a ouiji board.

dbn3.
-- bow down before the one you serve, you're going to get what you deserve. NIN
-- an enemy of the Ronald Reagan Republicans.          [e-mail]
-- the Irony is Delicious. . . . I pay Texas A&M  -- I do not speak for them.
<EOF>
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uunet.ca!hombas!joseph.daniels
From: [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: MJ-12 4/4
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Dec 92 06:16:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Home Base BBS - St. Thomas, Ontario - 519-633-7253
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)
Lines: 16

To: [e-mail] (Duane P Mantick)
From: [e-mail]

DPM|        Now I have to ask the obvious question - you had said that you
   |were typing the document in to your own word processor.  I will play
   |the devil's advocate here and and ask what evidence you can present
   |that the document is real?
   `---------------------------------------------------------------------

   The MJ-12 Documents are real and have been researched by many.
   I typed them in from photocopies of the originals. Of course that
   doesn't rule-out 'very well made forgeries' for those skeptics out
   there.
---
 . SLMR 2.1a . Klaatu Barada Nikto!

Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uunet.ca!hombas!joseph.daniels
From: [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Crop circles- a scientific approach
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Dec 92 06:25:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Home Base BBS - St. Thomas, Ontario - 519-633-7253
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels)
Lines: 17

To: [e-mail] (Michael B Garrett -- Chudys)
From: [e-mail]

MBG-C|My question: If someone is seriously researching this stuff, I think
     |they should be aware of this technique so as to know when it has been
     |used. Admittedly, we're no dummies- but if we could think of it, so could
     |someone else- and I think it casts enough of a doubt on the studies done
     |thus far to be worthy of thought/consideration. Don't you think so?
     `--------------------------------------------------------------------

     If what you claim is true. The British have a huge reward posted
     for anyone that can produce crop circles. To date no one has been
     able to duplicate them and collect the reward.

---
 . SLMR 2.1a . Mulroney's a "contact" man: a CON with no TACT!

Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:11741 alt.religion.kibology:5098
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!sdd.hp.com!cs.utexas.edu!tamsun.tamu.edu!venus.tamu.edu!dbn7350
From: [e-mail] (NASH, DAVID BENNETT III)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Trip on Space Ship 3.
Date: 8 Dec 1992 16:37 CST
Organization: Texas A&M University, Academic Computing Services
Lines: 24
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: venus.tamu.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Eric Boesch) writes...
>[e-mail] writes:
>>Subject: Trip On A Space Ship. Part 3.
[...]
>Alien tip #2: If your new braces receive radio broadcasts in the range
>of 5.77314 to 5.77317 kHz, remove them IMMEDIATELY, even if it costs
>you all your teeth.  Then call the UFO Task Force.  DO NOT INFORM THE
>U.S. GOVERNMENT -- they probably already know about it.

Are you suggesting that one can pick up alien transmissions on an AM radio?
My walkman here beside me picks up from 5.3 to 16 kHz (I believe).
So you are saying that I can pick up the latest sports report from
the Pleidaes in the Universal Championship Game where the blues
play the greys?

Just tuned down there.  Nothing there... :}


[...]
dbn3.
-- bow down before the one you serve, you're going to get what you deserve. NIN
-- an enemy of the Ronald Reagan Republicans.          [e-mail]
-- the Irony is Delicious. . . . I pay Texas A&M  -- I do not speak for them.
<EOF>
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13183 alt.alien.visitors:11742 sci.skeptic:35637
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!uunet!das.wang.com!wang!news
From: [e-mail] (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1992 18:59:50 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: talk.religion.newage
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 11

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

    Oh yes you flamers be careful because as you know it is the Christmas
    season and according to the song, Grandma Got Run Over By A Reindeer

John is _finally_ onto some real truths.
--
/|/-\/-\       I'll leave you with this saying:
 |__/__/_/     Uh-oh -- WHY am I suddenly thinking of a VENERABLE religious
 |warren@      leader frolicking on a FORT LAUDERDALE weekend?
/ nysernet.org
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!wupost!cs.utexas.edu!rutgers!uwvax!zomma.cs.wisc.edu!cherkaue
From: [e-mail] (Kevin J. Cherkauer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Howe's An Alien Harvest
Summary: Will someone give their opinion on this book?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Dec 92 23:37:32 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (The News)
Organization: University of Wisconsin, Madison -- Computer Sciences Dept.
Lines: 18

Since this subject line was floating around...

I remember seeing some posts about this book a while ago, but I don't remember
what the consensus was: is the book serious or a product of flakedom? While I
have not seen the book, I have recently discovered that

  a) it is self-published
  b) it is very expensive

(a) is generally a danger signal, and given (b), I'm wondering if obtaining
the book is worth looking into or not. I have visions of ridiculous stories
like MJ-12 but complete with full-color pix of mutilated livestock.

--
Kevin Cherkauer
[e-mail]

Disclaimer: The above opinions are solely the responsibility of my owners.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!news.cso.uiuc.edu!uxa.cso.uiuc.edu!jbh55289
From: [e-mail] (Josh 'K' Hopkins)
Subject: Re: The 12th Planet
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Net Noise owner)
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1992 22:28:39 GMT
Lines: 35

[e-mail] (Tom Randolph) writes:

>[e-mail] (Josh 'K' Hopkins) writes...
>>[e-mail] (Joan Cole) writes:
>>
>>>What is the debunking opinion about Zachariah Sitchin's books about the
>>>supposed planet on a comet-like orbit which has a period of 3600 years?
>>>Credibility wise, is this guy closer to Von Daniken in the quality of his
>>>research or does anyone have any respect for his work?
>>
>>A 3600 year orbit suggests to me that it would go far enough away from the sun
>>to be unstable over a long period of time - i.e. other stars would have
>>significant effects on it's orbit.  Sounds like garbage to me.
>>--
>>Josh Hopkins                                         [e-mail]

>Don't dismiss it too quickly. Similar things have been seriously considered in
>the astronomy world to try to explain an apparent periodic bombardment of the
>Earth by comets.

Two important facts are relevant.  First, they never found it (and periodicity
of extinctions is debateable).  Second, I believe that finding stable orbits
for Nemesis was very hard or never done because the immensly long period
required an orbit that was very far out.

>Now, don't take this as Gospel - no proof that such objects exist has been
>forthcoming, but there is some circumstantial evidence that supports it - the
>outermost planets have some as yet unaccounted-for motion in their orbits,
>besides the above mentioned comet bombardment.

The outer planets _may_ have unaccounted for motions.  Certain very old data
suggests problems, but there hasn't been a problem in this century.
--
Josh Hopkins                                          [e-mail]
                        Ho^3     !=L
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!spool.mu.edu!agate!doc.ic.ac.uk!uknet!comlab.ox.ac.uk!oxuniv!oxpath!kuzio
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Dec 92 15:14:03 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Oxford University Molecular Biology Data Centre
Lines: 16
Nntp-Posting-Host: newton
Nntp-Posting-User: kuzio

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Kumaran Santhanam) writes:
> John -
>
>      Please, John....who the hell do you think we are?  Why are you trying to
> discredit this group?  It's not fair to the rest of us who are armchair ufo-
> logists and are simply trying to arrive at the truth.  Did you really think
> that you could get away with naming a planet something like Trantor?  Just so
> everybody knows where that name came from...It's from Isaac Asimov's science
> fiction series "Foundation."  That's where it's from, not from outer space.

    maybe isaac knew a bit more than what he
    let on in his stories.  ;-)

===============================================================================
John Kuzio              [e-mail]              [e-mail]
===============================================================================
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13184 alt.alien.visitors:11746 sci.skeptic:35643
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!spool.mu.edu!olivea!stratus!florida!lpb
From: [e-mail] (Len Bucuvalas)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Request For Help.
Keywords: bush, mj12, cia, rockefeller scum
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Dec 92 01:04:56 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 23

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Dear Folks: I would appreciate it if someone would tell me what
>collection a question was asked me about why this and why that
>happens and I responded that the question sounded like what a person
>would ask a Guru after climbing to the top of a mountain. I would
>like to get this information so I could answer his or her question.
>Secondly I would appreciate it if Walter P. would tell us some more
>about sealing the aura because I know he has put a protective
>force field around his entire house.
>John Winston.

Yes I too am asking Walter P. to tell us how..either in this
forum or please Email myself and John....we are very
interested and I for one would like to experiment with it.

Thanx Walter!!!!! ;^)

Len
--
*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*
The accountability of government has gone to the point where the very
use of the law is the instrument of illegality.
        -- Ralph Nader @ Harvard Law School, 1/15/92
Xref: icaen alt.conspiracy:20589 sci.skeptic:35646 alt.alien.visitors:11747
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!uunet!mcsun!sun4nl!hacktic!blackhl!stycx!peter
From: [e-mail] (Author)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs & Jimmy Carter
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 92 09:40:07 PST
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: River of Doom. Running through Central Holland
Lines: 30

> Forgive me for repeating the obvious, but when it's known that:
>     The government does classified research in aerospace technology;
>     They've got aircraft whose specifications are not made available to the
>         general public
>     They have at least one type of aircraft that can achieve multi-mach
No point in denying that classified research is going on, this does
however not explain the whole range of observed and reported phenomena

>         speeds while GLIDING
> WHY do the UFO nuts insist that anything that the UFO nuts themselves can't
> identify must be an alien spacecraft?

Got to agree with you that everybody has his/her own favored explaination
for that what is not identified. I'm not making the point that something
or another has to be an alien spacecraft, I just don't exclude that
possibilty. For the same token not everything that is not explained has
to be a secret project. All I'm saying is that nothing should be excluded
from consideration, even not if that what is proposed may seem to farout
to even contemplate.

Greetings Peter


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
[e-mail] (Author)                      Stycx BBS [phone]
The responsibility for chance...lies within us. We must begin with ourselves,
teaching ourselves not to close our minds prematurely to the novel,
the suprising, the seemingly radical.                        -Alvin Toeffler


Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!batcomputer!munnari.oz.au!jabaru.cec.edu.au!csource!alfa
From: [e-mail] (glenn durden)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Re: Finding a Guru
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 92 11:54:12 +1100
References: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Unique Computing Pty Ltd, Melbourne, Australia
Lines: 36

[e-mail] (Max Elliot) writes:

> From article <[e-mail]>, by [e-mail] (Mar
> > Re: Finding a Guru
> >
> > Someone asked about finding a Guru.
> > I have found such a realized Guru, Her name
> > is Gurumayi also known as Chidvilasananda.
> > She is the successor to Baba Muktananda and
> > the Siddha Yoga Lineage. She resides at
> > her Ashram in South Fallsburg, NY 914-434-2000.
> > I have known her for 6 years and you can know
> > her greatness just by being in her Presence.
> >
> > Best,
> > Mary
>
>   Like Rod, and others have said very clearly:
>
>     GET THIS STUFF OUT OF HERE!
>
>   It belongs in alt.religion.* NOT in alt.alien.visitors
> -Max


It probably does, but in either case one thing I've always wanted to know is
why Gurus have to have names like 'Chidvilasananda' or 'Baba Muktananda'.
Even westerners born with western names have had to change them in order to
become a guru.
Does the Federated Gurus Union not allow gurus with names like Glenn, or John,
or Betty?   :-)

.........................................................
glenn durden
[e-mail]  Unique Computing Pty Ltd, Melbourne, Australia
The opinions expressed above are that of the author only.
Xref: icaen sci.skeptic:35648 sci.astro:23957 sci.space:38753 alt.alien.visitors:11749
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!rpi!batcomputer!munnari.oz.au!jabaru.cec.edu.au!csource!alfa
From: [e-mail] (glenn durden)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,sci.astro,sci.space,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: STS-48 and "SDI": Oberg vs. Hoagland
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 92 11:58:08 +1100
References: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Unique Computing Pty Ltd, Melbourne, Australia
Lines: 18

[e-mail] (Benito E. Villanueva) writes:

> I seem to have caught this debate half way through and I have not seen
> the video in question. Is this video available anywhere- everyone else
> seems to have seen it? How can I view a copy?
> Any info would be greatly appreciated.
> Thanks
> Steven Villanueva


I've seen it.
Its a moving point of light.     A bit of ice.
IMHO, find something more useful to get your hands on.

.........................................................
glenn durden
[e-mail]  Unique Computing Pty Ltd, Melbourne, Australia
The opinions expressed above are that of the author only.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13186 alt.alien.visitors:11750 sci.skeptic:35653
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!crcnis1.unl.edu!wupost!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue,  8 Dec 92 19:46:33 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 5

Dear People: My compliments to the person for putting in the information
about Edgar Cayce. He was one of my favorite people. Satan wrote me
back and asked me what I had said to him on the E-mail I sent him
before. He must have a lot on his mind.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13187 alt.alien.visitors:11751 alt.religion.kibology:5100
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!crcnis1.unl.edu!wupost!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue,  8 Dec 92 19:52:15 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 2

Dear Folks: I am at a loss for words.
John Winston.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!wupost!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!rutgers!concert!rock!darkshot
From: [e-mail] (Michael B Garrett -- Chudys)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Possible kill file uses
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Dec 92 05:19:42 GMT
Organization: CONCERT-CONNECT -- Public Access UNIX
Lines: 20


To all the folks who have been on this newsgroup for a while:

Will I ever miss anything important if I killfile ALL messages
from portal.com?

I'm an unusually well-adjusted type, but certain inane postings
seem to be calculated to drive me over the edge. I would appreciate
any help y'all can give me- 'cause I have HAD IT. Throughout years of
netting and BBSing, I have NEVER run up on anyone who annoyed me more
than this Winston prickamouse. And everyone constantly flaming at him
is almost as annoying.

If there is a place where the subject at hand is discussed in a rational
manner, please let me know- and you won't be able to see me for the dust
I'll raise getting the hell out of here.

Sincerely as I can be,

Darkshot
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13188 alt.alien.visitors:11753 alt.religion.kibology:5103
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!crcnis1.unl.edu!wupost!uunet!world!kibo
From: [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry)
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Two rooms filled with typography, in downtown Boston
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1992 05:58:18 GMT
Lines: 41

In article <[e-mail]> John_-_"Bibo"[e-mail] writes:
>Dear Folks: I am at a loss for words.

Here are some you may have.  Most are English.  A few are Solar Max...

monadnock

blennioid

bass-frettish

crunchewy

zeptoquaternium-17

crimping

equinoxious

portmanteau

pamplemousse

curdlet

octothorpe

greebling

philatelist

podular

Schnitzeltod

schnitzeltoed

sil

                            -- K.

From: [e-mail] (Brian Wood)
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1992 21:44:29 GMT
Subject: Re: The 12th Planet
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: HP Mfg. Test Div., Loveland, CO
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!haven.umd.edu!darwin.sura.net!wupost!sdd.hp.com!apollo.hp.com!cupnews0.cup.hp.com!hpscit.sc.hp.com!hplextra!hpfcso!hplvec!brian
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
References: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 39

[e-mail] (Joan Cole) writes:

>What is the debunking opinion about Zachariah Sitchin's books about the
>supposed planet on a comet-like orbit which has a period of 3600 years?
>Credibility wise, is this guy closer to Von Daniken in the quality of his
>research or does anyone have any respect for his work?

I read most of his stuff (I think it's Zechariah, tho).  It's really an
amazing body of literature, with painstaking re-interpretation of the
ancient cuneiform tablets of the Sumerians.  The amount of detail backing
up his claim is impressive.  _The_Twelfth_Planet_ is, if I remember right,
a shorter book based on the composite of a series of books also written
by Mr. Sitchin, called _The_Earth_Chronicles_ (which had, I think, four
volumes associated with it, with titles such as _The_Wars_of_Gods_and_Man_,
_Stairway_To_The_Heavens_, etc).

As a literary work, it's impressive. It links just about every ancient
mystery to ancient astronauts.  It is an intriguing concept - that
Earth was once a much larger planet in orbit where the asteroid belt is
today, and that a "12th planet" (so-called because the ancients included
the sun and Earth's moon in their calculations and somehow knew about all
nine planets) approached Earth (formerly known as Tiamet - a giant water
world), and the moon of this other planet hit Tiamet, knocking it into
Earth's present orbit and dragging the remnants of the moon with it, leaving
chunks of ice and other debris in what then became the asteroid belt.

I believe he also asserts that some 6000 years ago, when the twelfth planet
was near Earth, an expedition from that planet seeded life on Earth,
using genetic experiments between apes and space-women to create slaves
to do mining for them.  In the process, they created minotaurs and other
legendary creatures, but also Adam and Eve.

It's pretty fanciful, but it's fun to think about.

It is available in the New Age section of some bookstores.  I've seen the
series at Waldenbooks.

Brian

Xref: icaen alt.conspiracy:20597 sci.skeptic:35661 alt.alien.visitors:11755
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!haven.umd.edu!darwin.sura.net!cs.ucf.edu!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Subject: Re: UFOs & Jimmy Carter
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1992 02:21:07 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 71

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Author) writes:
>
>Forgive me for repeating the obvious, but when it's known that:
>    The government does classified research in aerospace technology;
>    They've got aircraft whose specifications are not made available to the
>        general public
>    They have at least one type of aircraft that can achieve multi-mach
>        speeds while GLIDING
>WHY do the UFO nuts insist that anything that the UFO nuts themselves can't
>identify must be an alien spacecraft?
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not all "UFO nuts" insist that UNidentified Flying Objects =are=
alien spacecraft. Most UFO sightings _can_ be explained. It's a
tremendous leap of blind "belief" for someone to insist that a
UNidentified Flying object *is* a "alien spacecraft" .

I've witnessed a number of UFO sightings in my lifetime...not one
of them would I ever claim as a "alien spacecraft"....it is simply
an UNidentified craft.

I witnessed (along with about 50 others) the infamous Gulf Breeze
"UFO" in Florida...all I ever saw was a very brilliant light that
initially appeared as bright white. It appeared to me to be about
50 ft in diameter, however it was across from Pensacola bay and
appeared to me to be about 2 miles out across the bay, but distances
are hard to estimate. It may have been closer or further. One thing
I quite certain is that it wasn't a flare..it didn't exhibit *any*
flare like characteristics but it did exhibit a complete change
of color, from bright white to very deep red. The change was not
sudden, but gradual, as if a rheostat was turned. The light source
was pretty stable, with no signs of flickering, flashing, sparks
of any kind. Just for the hell of it I took a picture with my
35 mm camera not even expecting anything to come out on film but
I was pleasantly surprised when I got the film back and saw it
had came out quite well. The photo shows the top half of the
night sky just above the object is light blasted and well diffused
with intense light. The object itself appears to have a slight
oval shape to it and is intensly bright..moreso than any object
I've ever come across before. What is it? I have utterly no idea.

Was the "UFO" an "alien craft" ? There was no evidence to suggest
anything of the sort. Duration of the sighting was about 1 minute,
with no noise at all perceived by the crowd of people I was with.

The object _could_ be anything and the locale of the sighting (Fort
Pickens, across the Bay bridge) is nearby the Pensacola Naval base,
however I'm extremely skeptical that it could be a secret military
craft, though it might be...I just don't buy into it.

As for "alien craft", ask yourself just what *is* the definition of
a UFO...we _assume_ that it's extraterrestrial, but that's not
proof and by that assumption tends to digress into "belief systems" .

As for Northrup/Lockheed..I would submit that there's some definite
high wierdness going on in Calif. I have a Houston MUFON article
(HUFON) here that is fairly remarkable in the result of it's
investigation. I'll see about posting it here.

Don






--
<*> Don Allen <*>             1:363/81.1 - Fidonet #1 - Homebody BBS
[e-mail] - Internet   1:363/29.8 - Fidonet #2 - Gourmet Delight
88:4205/1.1  - MUFON Network  1:3607/20.2  -- Odyssey - Alabama UFO Net
NSA grep food: Aviary, Ed Dames, Los Alamos - Majestic - Jason - RIIA - UN
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13189 alt.alien.visitors:11756 sci.skeptic:35667
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!crcnis1.unl.edu!wupost!uunet!charon.amdahl.com!amdahl!JUTS!duts!dfs30
From: [e-mail] (Denise Solis)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Alien Ships.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Dec 92 23:24:03 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Denise Solis)
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA
Lines: 26

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Ray Rooney) writes:
>To: [e-mail] (Molly Olver)
>
>MO>Why is it that all of the alien races you mentioned only resemble
>MO>caucasians?  Space doesn't seem to be a very integrated place to
>MO>live.
>
>Yes, strange, isn't it?
>
>For that matter, how many abductees (beside Barney Hill) are black,
>oriental, etc.?
>

You guys just aren't paying attention. There are over 30 varieties of
aliens being reported and few resemble caucasians. There are also
abductions being reported by every size, shape, color, religion ect...
of person imaginable. Read some books, go to some symposiums or talk
to a hypnotherapist that has experiences with abduction cases.
There are way too many cases to count these days and more being
discovered.

--
=========================================================================
||%%%%||         Denise Solis -- [e-mail]       ||%%%%||
||%%%%||  Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty  ||%%%%||
=========================================================================
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:11757 alt.religion.kibology:5111
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!wupost!emory!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!eff!world!kibo
From: [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry)
Subject: Re: The John_-_Winston Show... IN BED.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Two rooms filled with typography, in downtown Boston
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1992 09:38:29 GMT
Lines: 20

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Denise Solis) writes:
>
>If you guys tune into the local cable community channel Thursday December
>10th you will not only see John Winston but me too.
>I'm going to be on his show to discuss My UFO group "Silicon Valley
>Skywatchers".      ^^^

That does it.  If John_-_Winston, aka "Bibo", can his own show, I demand
one as well.  Someone get me a video camera and I'll start making tapes
for the local cable filler channel.

I can do that big with the exploding frozed frog that even managed to
freak out Mike Bent, Boy Scientist.  And I'd show the world 101 uses for
Mr. Potato Head, unless the FCC stops me.  Of course, every episode we'd
do a ten-minute segment about that week's redesign of the opening
titles.  "This week, ITC Jamille Bold Italic with really tight kerns!
Does this sexy spacing go TOO FAR?"

                            -- K.

Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13190 alt.alien.visitors:11758 sci.skeptic:35672 talk.bizarre:84849 alt.flame:47046
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,talk.bizarre,alt.flame
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!crcnis1.unl.edu!wupost!spool.mu.edu!cserver!edsi!trimper
From: [e-mail] (Greg Trimper)
Subject: Re: No laughing matter.
Organization: Enterprise Data Systems Incorporated, Appleton WI
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1992 05:46:42 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 11

[e-mail] (Scottb) writes:

>Perhaps we should move this to alf.flame.  It looks like we are all having fun
>"persecuting" him.

ALF.flame?  Is THAT show still on the air?  What a load of crap.

At least now I know why this is in alt.alien.visitors.


Greg Trimper   [e-mail]
Xref: icaen sci.skeptic:35674 sci.astro:23967 sci.space:38772 alt.alien.visitors:11759
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,sci.astro,sci.space,alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!crcnis1.unl.edu!wupost!uunet!mnemosyne.cs.du.edu!nyx!dnadams
From: [e-mail] (Dean Adams)
Subject: Re: STS-48 and "SDI": Oberg vs. Hoagland
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (netnews admin account)
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 92 12:18:11 GMT
Lines: 30


[e-mail] (Steve Gamble x3293) writes:
 >Does the fact that Robert Sheaffer is a member of CSICOP and James Oberg
 >is a friend of his and they both know Phil Klass mean that their solution
 >to the video is incorrect?

Some do think that way.  Personally, I have to think that anyone who could
call what is obviously TINY ice particles a "UFO" is sadly about absolute
epitome of a completely ignorant "ufo-nut".  The same people also called
the insulation/debris ejected during the last TDRS deploy a "UFO" as well,
and once again the Shuttle was being "attacked by aliens"...<ugh>

I watch (and tape) countless hours of live coverage from every
Shuttle mission, and when people who would not know a water dump from
a water closet start seeing "aliens" everywhere it just makes me sick.

 >I am happy that Oberg's explanation fits with what is shown on the video.
 >The UFOs and the missile which shoots them down

Oh, brother!  With examples like this how are people supposed to
ever take *ANY* "sightings" reports at ALL seriously??

 >are nothing other than small debris close to the camera, probably ice
 >crystals. The change in motion is caused by the firing of a thruster
 >just out of camera shot.

EXACTLY, and to anyone at all familar with space or the Space Shuttle,
that is an almost immediate thing to see.  It's very plain.  It took
really wild imagination to dream up that "missile" (??) nonsense.

Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!olivea!veritas!amdcad!netcomsv!terapin!croth
From: [e-mail] (Charles Roth)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Strange Tidbits
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Dec 92 08:37:34 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: BBS
Lines: 5

I have the book, and have read a few chapters.  The author sounds like he
really believes what he is writting is true, and it gives a confidence, as well
as the evidence he puts forth.  It certainly is an interesting notion that
mankind may have been around a long time ago, got intelligent, created nuclear
bombs, and then *poof*, and started all over again.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!olivea!veritas!amdcad!netcomsv!terapin!croth
From: [e-mail] (Charles Roth)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Dolphins
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Dec 92 08:47:42 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: BBS
Lines: 8

> > Not true!!!!!!!  I have just discovered an article in the Weekly World
> > News that was 100% true (I was amazed).  It was about Andrew Martinez
> > who, for those of you without a clue, is the Naked Guy at Berkeley.  Seems
> > he doesn't like wearing clothes and so he goes to school naked.  I think
> > this article is a first for this bastion of journalism.

Send that dude to the Universety of Minnesota, that'd change his mind real
quick.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!wupost!psuvax1!psuvm!jxm182
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1992 08:59:32 EST
From: <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Yeah, the same happened
Lines: 5

Ya know, the same thing happened to me last thursday. As I ate a cold
meatloaf sandwich. These huge aliens stepped into my house by way of a small
anit-tank weapon. As I stood to give protest the extra-terrestrial pushed
by me and took the modem off of my computer (card Modem) and proceeded
to have a thanksgiving dinner on my hardware! ( more later ) :)
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13191 alt.alien.visitors:11763 sci.skeptic:35677
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rphroy!caen!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: The Devil Made Me Do It.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Dec 92 14:40:14 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 9

Dear Folks: After giving it a little thought I have changed my mind
and don't think it would be a good idea to put Satan's E-mail address
on the Net so the flamers could flame him. That would be cruel and
unusual punishment and no one not even Satan deserves that.
John Winston. The OOBE train will not be running on this wednesday till
Jan. 5th but Kumar wants me to drop by on thursday and pick him up
without bringing along the train. Anybody else who wants to go along
is welcome but remember we'll leave the train at home this time.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13192 alt.alien.visitors:11764
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rphroy!caen!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Dec 92 14:41:49 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 2

Dear Folks: I hope all of you are alive and well this Holiday Season.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13193 alt.alien.visitors:11765 alt.religion.kibology:5113
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rphroy!caen!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Dec 92 14:43:32 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 2

Dear Folks: I hope Santa brings you all the good things you deserve.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13194 alt.alien.visitors:11766 sci.skeptic:35680
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!crcnis1.unl.edu!wupost!newsfeed.rice.edu!rice!RICEVM1.RICE.EDU!LINSCOT
From: [e-mail] (Stephen M. Linscott)
Subject: Re: Lucifer.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News)
Organization: Rice University
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1992 15:19:33 GMT
Lines: 18

In article <[e-mail]>
[e-mail] writes:

>
>Subject: Lucifer Is Alive And Well And He's Living in Sunny Southern
>California.
>   I know it has been stated that I have been receiving E-mail from Satan.
>Although this person may go by the name of Satan I rather doubt this
>person's truthfullness. The
>last time I heard about Lucifer he was down in El Cajon, Calif.
>  There is a lady down in San Diego, Calif. which is right by El Cajon, Calif.
>by the name of Ruth Norman.  This lady really has a lot of people making fun
>on her and I have to admit I've had a few laughs about her myself.  I
>believe that she claims to be the present incarnation of the Ark Angel Uriel

John - The only Archangel mentioned in the Bible is Michael - what's the
source she uses for Uriel being an Archangel?
                                                - Steve -
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13195 alt.alien.visitors:11767 sci.skeptic:35681
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!crcnis1.unl.edu!wupost!udel!news.udel.edu!darwin.sura.net!jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu!fmsrl7!ef2007!pms706!ekimmina
From: [e-mail] (Eric Kimminau)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: The Devil Made Me Do It.
Date: 9 Dec 1992 16:18:22 GMT
Organization: Ford Motor Company
Lines: 12
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pms001.pms.ford.com

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
|> Dear Folks: After giving it a little thought I have changed my mind
|> and don't think it would be a good idea to put Satan's E-mail address
|> on the Net so the flamers could flame him. That would be cruel and
|> unusual punishment and no one not even Satan deserves that.
|> John Winston. The OOBE train will not be running on this wednesday till
|> Jan. 5th but Kumar wants me to drop by on thursday and pick him up
|> without bringing along the train. Anybody else who wants to go along
|> is welcome but remember we'll leave the train at home this time.
|> John Winston.

I think your asking for people to make a new train with you. Shame on you John. You really should post such things in alt.sex.humor.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!wupost!cs.utexas.edu!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!swrinde!network.ucsd.edu!news!nosc!ryptyde!jim
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: The 12th Planet
From: [e-mail] (Jim Bowery)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 92 07:16:26 PST
Organization: NetLink Online Communications, San Diego CA
Lines: 13

Sitchin makes the same mistake many other investigators at the fringe
of knowledge makes:  He ventures far from his field of expertiese
in order to make marginal gains in amassing a synthesis.  If he had
stuck more closely to his archaeological data and ventured less into
the relm of astronomical, planetary and biological sciences, he
might have received a much wider and more credulous audience for his
hypothesis that consistencies of ancient myth may largely derive from
colonization by an advanced humanoid civilization of unknown origin.

--
INTERNET:  [e-mail] (Jim Bowery)
UUCP:   ...!ryptyde!netlink!jim
NetLink Online Communications * Public Access in San Diego, CA [phone]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!wupost!spool.mu.edu!umn.edu!lynx!apsicc.aps.edu!jim
From: [e-mail] (frost...)
Subject: Re: Project Grudge
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 92 16:46:00 GMT
Organization: Albuquerque Public Schools - Career Enrichment Center
References: <[e-mail]>
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41
Lines: 34

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels) writes...
>To: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
>From: [e-mail]
>
>MC|Cooper correct?  Not a snowball's chance in hell.  Anyone that could believe
>
>GRUDGE PROJECT:
>In  December  1948 PROJECT SIGN (nicknamed  PROJECT  SAUCER)  was
>replaced  by  PROJECT GRUDGE. The name came from  Captain  Edward
>Ruppelt  who  felt  that UFOs were a nuisance and  needed  to  be
>dismissed. The project did not investigate any civilian sightings
>and tried to use only Air Force personnel. In March 1952  PROJECT
>GRUDGE became PROJECT BLUE BOOK.
>
>---
> . SLMR 2.1a . Klaatu Barada Nikto!
>
======================================================================
Captain Ruppelt was not a UFO debunkee out of hand. He tried hard to
find ordinary explanations for the things which had been seen and only
after normal investigative methods had failed to produce anything would
the sighting report be filed under an unknown status. Some years ago
and after he had left the Project he published a book which was actually
most favorable towards the UFO phenomenom. If my memory serves me correctly
he also had been part of an aircrew of an attack bomber practicing in the
southwest part of the United States when they saw and chased a disk shaped
UFO for a lengthy period of time before it flew off. He admitted he could
find no earthly explanation for what happened.
                                Jim
======================================================================
   We are rapidly ascending through prosperity to poverty...  Twain
                    Internet:    [e-mail]
       Albuquerque Public Schools - Instructional System Manager
======================================================================
Xref: icaen sci.skeptic:35689 sci.astro:23981 sci.space:38794 alt.alien.visitors:11770
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,sci.astro,sci.space,alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!utcsri!utzoo!henry
From: [e-mail] (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: STS-48 and "SDI": Oberg vs. Hoagland
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1992 17:25:02 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 30

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Dean Adams) writes:
> >I am happy that Oberg's explanation fits with what is shown on the video.
> >The UFOs and the missile which shoots them down
>
>Oh, brother!  With examples like this how are people supposed to
>ever take *ANY* "sightings" reports at ALL seriously??

Ah, but an occasional example like this is very useful.

How, you ask?

Well, the first thing you learn in any decent course on how to do historical
research is that you never, never, never blindly take anybody's word for
anything, and you always, always, always cross-check your sources (if you
can...).  One very useful method of cross-checking is to see what your
source thinks of something that is well established as definitely fact or
definitely fiction.

If you ask a UFO enthusiast what he thinks of the STS-48 UFO, and he thinks
it's for real... then you know how much faith to put in sighting reports
from *him*.

Such a pity that George Adamski died; asking UFOlogists what they thought
of him was a marvellous test of whether they had their heads screwed on
securely.  (The amazing thing was how many of them treated this obvious nut
as a respected colleague, thus flunking the test...)  Maybe the STS-48 UFO
can be the new test case.
--
"God willing... we shall return."       | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
       -Gene Cernan, the Moon, Dec 1972 |  [e-mail]  utzoo!henry
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:11771 alt.religion.kibology:5116
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!wupost!cs.utexas.edu!sdd.hp.com!spool.mu.edu!umn.edu!lynx!apsicc.aps.edu!jim
From: [e-mail] (frost...)
Subject: Re: Trip on Space Ship 3.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 92 17:36:00 GMT
Organization: Albuquerque Public Schools - Career Enrichment Center
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41
Lines: 26

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (NASH, DAVID BENNETT III) writes...
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Eric Boesch) writes...
>>[e-mail] writes:
>Are you suggesting that one can pick up alien transmissions on an AM radio?
>My walkman here beside me picks up from 5.3 to 16 kHz (I believe).
>So you are saying that I can pick up the latest sports report from
>the Pleidaes in the Universal Championship Game where the blues
>play the greys?
>
>Just tuned down there.  Nothing there... :}
======================================================================
Actually, you can pick up alien transmissions on your am radio but it
is quite well known where they are coming from. The signals also sound
like waves washing onto a beach, sort of smooth and rhythmic. These
signals come from the planet Jupiter when it is in the sky. Whether day
or night the planet has to be in the sky above you so that the earth
doesn't block out the signals. I don't remember the exact frequency but
it is about a third of the way up the am band as I recall. Since Jupiter
is close to a protostar in development and puts out more energy than it
receives your radio is acting like a tiny radio-telescope when it picks
it up.
======================================================================
   We are rapidly ascending through prosperity to poverty...  Twain
                    Internet:    [e-mail]
       Albuquerque Public Schools - Instructional System Manager
======================================================================
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13196 alt.alien.visitors:11772 alt.religion.kibology:5117
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!ohstpy!vancleef
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Dec 92 12:40:04 EST
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: world
Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Physics
Lines: 9

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
> Dear Folks: I am at a loss for words.
> John Winston.

That's unusual.

-Garrett


Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:11773 alt.religion.kibology:5118
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!darwin.sura.net!jvnc.net!netnews.upenn.edu!grip.cis.upenn.edu!jmv
From: [e-mail] (Jean-Marc Vezien)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Trip on Space Ship 3.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Dec 92 16:14:28 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: GRASP Lab
Lines: 36
Nntp-Posting-Host: grip.cis.upenn.edu

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (NASH, DAVID BENNETT III) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Eric Boesch) writes...
> >[e-mail] writes:
> >>Subject: Trip On A Space Ship. Part 3.
> [...]
> >Alien tip #2: If your new braces receive radio broadcasts in the range
> >of 5.77314 to 5.77317 kHz, remove them IMMEDIATELY, even if it costs
> >you all your teeth.  Then call the UFO Task Force.  DO NOT INFORM THE
> >U.S. GOVERNMENT -- they probably already know about it.
>
> Are you suggesting that one can pick up alien transmissions on an AM radio?
> My walkman here beside me picks up from 5.3 to 16 kHz (I believe).
> So you are saying that I can pick up the latest sports report from
> the Pleidaes in the Universal Championship Game where the blues
> play the greys?
>
> Just tuned down there.  Nothing there... :}
>
>


You just missed the end of the game.
BTW, the blues won. 30-13 (parsec).


In retaliation, the Greys are launching a massive
anti-matter attack on the blues homeworld.
Sounds like we'll have a new supernova soon.



Advice of the month: if you play the Greys,
let them win.


JM.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13197 alt.alien.visitors:11774 sci.skeptic:35690 talk.bizarre:84883
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,talk.bizarre
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!europa.asd.contel.com!darwin.sura.net!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!news.service.uci.edu!ucivax!megatek!max
From: [e-mail] (Max Elliot)
Subject: Re: No laughing matter.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1992 17:48:02 GMT
Lines: 26

From article <[e-mail]>, by [e-mail] (Eric Kimminau):
>
> |> 2. Have you considered sending mail to his sysadmin?
> |>
> |> % mail [e-mail]
> |> Subject: Satan is bothering me
> |>
> |> Someone named Satan (yes, *the* Satan) is sending me nasty e-mail.
> |> Please wipe all his files, remove his account, have him write me
> |> a personal apology, sodomize him, kick him out of his home, delete
> |> his bank balance, and force him to debate homosexuality and NAMBLA
> |> with Clayton Cramer until his brain implodes.
> |>
> |> Hugs,
> |>     John_-_-_-_-_Winston
> |>
> |> P.S. If you have any "I went to hell and all I got was this lousy
> |> T-Shirt" shirts left, I would really like one.
>
> I have to tell you that I gave the required milk out the nose offering while reading this. Thanks!

  Me too! It's hilarious. I'll try to follow suit very soon.

  Cheers!
-Max

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!yale.edu!jvnc.net!darwin.sura.net!Sirius.dfn.de!mailgzrz.TU-Berlin.DE!math.fu-berlin.de!news.netmbx.de!zelator!leo
From: [e-mail] (Stefan Hartmann)
Subject: Re: ftp archive site
Organization: Puplic-Access-Xenix-System
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 92 02:44:40 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 28

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Iain Jameson) writes:

>Excuse me

>Is there an ftp archive site for this news group?

>Thanks.

>Iain.


Hi,
well there is a UFO pictures FTP site at:

130.231.240.17 (phoenix.oulu.fi) in pub/ufo_and_space_pics

Best regards, Stefan Hartmann, c/o Gatz & Hartmann
email to:  [e-mail]



--

*************************************************************
*  Stefan Hartmann       This is how to contact me:         *
*  EMAIL: [e-mail]                          *
*  Phone : ++ 49 30 344 23 66      FAX : ++ 49 30 344 92 79 *
*************************************************************
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13198 alt.alien.visitors:11776 sci.skeptic:35693 talk.bizarre:84887
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,talk.bizarre
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!news.service.uci.edu!ucivax!megatek!max
From: [e-mail] (Max Elliot)
Subject: Re: No laughing matter.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1992 18:23:06 GMT
Lines: 38


   My life has recently been cancelled.  I was reading an article in
   alt.alien.religious.prosthesis and suddenly SATAN himself jumped
   out of the CRT and wrapped his gnarled claws around my neck, crushing
   my spine, and ripped my thrashing body through a churning, twisting
   inter-dimensional wormhole. I am now in Hell. Apparently, I had been
   a bad boy upstairs. In fact, Satan himself congratulated me on my
   incredibly poor performance in Life. I have graduated Magna Cum Laude
   into the "High Achievers in Hell" hall of fame. Satan has promised me
   that I will be enjoying one of the most excruciating, utterly demeaning,
   and, of course, highly coveted eternal tortures.  I am to be tied, buck
   naked and gagged to a wild-eyed, frothing, amphetamine soaked.........
   yup, you guessed it:  JOHN_-_-_-WINSTON!!!  Oh God, I do truly repent.
   Please, please, plleeeaaase, just one more chance. Satan whips out a
   fast cliche.  "Not a chance in Hell" he says.  "And just for squealing
   to your false God like a stuck pig, We're going to make you wear a
   Bigfoot suit, and wear hearing aids with the volume turned up to 11,
   so that you won't miss one single word of what we know will be an
   endless torrent of incomprehensible psycho-babble!".  "AND, in addition
   to that, we are going to place big-screen televisions all around you,
   and play re-runs of "In Search of..." !"  "Now, if you don't keep it
   down and enjoy your torture like a good little demon, we will up the
   ante, and force you to give 'ol Johhny boy, loving, knowing nods after
   everything he says!"  AAARRRGGGHHH!!! "Please, mister Satan! Oh please
   dip me in boiling oil repeatedly.  Pour flaming, molten plastic on my
   genitals... anything but that.. oh please... <whimper> <deep sobbing>"

   To be continued...

   Yours Eternally,

   Max Elliott
   Denizen of the Underworld,
   Supremely suffering, unrepentant castaway,
   Despiser of all things true,
   Junior editor of the Weekly World news.


Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13199 alt.alien.visitors:11777 sci.skeptic:35698 talk.bizarre:84897 alt.flame:47107
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,talk.bizarre,alt.flame
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!gumby!yale!actcnews!sun1x!scottb
From: [e-mail] (Scottb)
Subject: Re: No laughing matter.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: United Technologies Research Center
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1992 20:08:14 GMT
Lines: 7

So my finger slipped.  I meant alt.flame.
Good thing I am wearing my FLAME proof suit.
--
Disclaimer:  I didn't do it!  Nobody saw me do it!  You can't prove anything!
             My opinions are my own.   They do not reflect anyone/thing else!

[e-mail]            |           [e-mail]
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13200 alt.alien.visitors:11778 sci.skeptic:35699
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!gumby!yale!actcnews!sun1x!scottb
From: [e-mail] (Scottb)
Subject: Re: The Devil Made Me Do It.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Hell
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1992 20:12:50 GMT
Lines: 11

John,

We dont want to flame SATAN.  We just want to know what he has said to
you.  We do, however, really enjoy flaming you.

Beezlebub
--
Disclaimer:  I didn't do it!  Nobody saw me do it!  You can't prove anything!
             My opinions are my own.   They do not reflect anyone/thing else!

[e-mail]            |           [e-mail]
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13201 alt.alien.visitors:11779 alt.religion.kibology:5119
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mcsun!sunic!ugle.unit.no!alf.uib.no!ii.uib.no!bjornts
From: [e-mail] (Bjoern Tore Sund)
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Bergen University Newsaccount)
Organization: Dept. of Informatics, University of Bergen
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 92 20:06:23 GMT
Lines: 15

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
|> In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
|> > Dear Folks: I am at a loss for words.
|> > John Winston.
|>
|> That's unusual.
|>
|> -Garrett
But it`s not really a problem for us!

--
    ___   ___
__  |__)   |    Bjoern Tore Sund (BT)   Quote: "Nothing!"
    |__)   |    [e-mail]              - Marvin

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!uunet!acd4!TEFS1!gvb
From: [e-mail] (<[e-mail]>)
Subject: Re: About John Winston and others ...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Applied Computing Devices, Inc., Terre Haute IN
References: <pershing.723448895@teal> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1992 19:27:27 GMT
Lines: 29

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Max Elliot) writes:
>From article <pershing.723448895@teal>, by [e-mail] (Paul Pershing):
>>
>> Is there another newsgroup where people can discuss some of these issues
>> without having to wade through dozens of posts by folks who subscribe to
>
>  I would like to be able to separate the wheat from the chaff myself as
>  well.  So, I would propose that one of the long timers post a list of
>  the names and e-mail addresses of the *serious* researchers. (with
>  their permissions, of course).  This list would be very helpful in
>  allowing those who strive for sane discussion to contact each other,
>  and build a network of communication outside the framework of this
>  loosely knit band of apes and philosophers.
>
>  Cheers!
>
>-Max


I have quite a list from my moderated group that I am running. Possibly
you would be interested in joining the group? Its kind of slow right now
but not dead, I don't think.

Gregg.

--
        Gregg Brown: Serious about UFO Sighting and Abduction Research
    812-442-5354 (Voice)(24 hours/7 days) or e-mail me at [e-mail]
               All information will be strictly confidential.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!uunet!acd4!TEFS1!gvb
From: [e-mail] (<[e-mail]>)
Subject: Re: ftp archive site
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Applied Computing Devices, Inc., Terre Haute IN
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1992 19:30:12 GMT
Lines: 18

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Iain Jameson) writes:
>Excuse me
>
>Is there an ftp archive site for this news group?
>
>Thanks.
>
>Iain.

Well, I am not an ftp site but I do have archives dating back to July 13,
1992.

Gregg.

--
        Gregg Brown: Serious about UFO Sighting and Abduction Research
    812-442-5354 (Voice)(24 hours/7 days) or e-mail me at [e-mail]
               All information will be strictly confidential.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!uunet!acd4!TEFS1!gvb
From: [e-mail] (<[e-mail]>)
Subject: Re: Contact Notes
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Applied Computing Devices, Inc., Terre Haute IN
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1992 20:25:06 GMT
Lines: 46

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeff) writes:


...Other stuff deleted...
>
>You be the judge. But for me, the guy ain't even close. He has no appreciation
>for sociological insight that sez "if thousands of people tell the same tail,
>hard evidence or no, there is something very serious going on that is
>most likely just exactly what they think it is". (Abduction)
>
>Jeff-
>
Agreed. I think he is much more skeptical than he needs to be. However, in
the mainstream, I think he is much better at sifting out the chaff than many
others. Most of the things that tended to frustrate and disgust him about this
field also frustrate and disgust me.

Your last statement in in the above paragraph disturbs me just a little.
Barring any possible "covert" outside influence, I would absolutely agree with
you that they are just exactly what they seem to be. However, there are alot
of things that go on in the world that are not what they seem to be. This
may be different. Then again, it may not. A tree isn't a tree until you can
climb it. Many people claim they can climb the tree of ufology but in real
life its only an imaginary claim. A wishful claim, but still not real.
Many people claim that our boundaries of what is real and what is not are
fuzzy. I disagree. There is a definate separation.

At this point, I would tend to agree with you anyway about abductions.
However, there are some inconsistencies that cannot seem to be explained.
Many, mentioned in JV's book, just don't make sense. I have an explanation
for some of the ones JV mentions but others, I can't determine.

And the search continues. You wouldn't believe the amount of response I am
getting from my support line. If you call and the line is busy, keep
trying. My information gathering has been influenced dramatically by
this separate line I installed for the research. I have trouble keeping
all of the information recorded and cataloged. Its truly amazing.

Well, back to writing the research log.

Gregg.

--
        Gregg Brown: Serious about UFO Sighting and Abduction Research
    812-442-5354 (Voice)(24 hours/7 days) or e-mail me at [e-mail]
               All information will be strictly confidential.
Xref: icaen sci.skeptic:35710 sci.astro:24004 sci.space:38815 alt.alien.visitors:11783
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,sci.astro,sci.space,alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!cs.uiuc.edu!mcgrath
From: [e-mail] (Robert McGrath)
Subject: Re: STS-48 and "SDI": Oberg vs. Hoagland
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept of Computer Science
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1992 23:13:34 GMT
Lines: 30

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
|> James Oberg will _of course_ have an explanation.  He is a member of
|> PSICOP and works with Philip Klass, THE well-known skeptic "nothing-
|> is-real" other famous member of PSICOP.  I've been seeing more and
|> more things from Oberg lately, and I *never* see this connection
|> mentioned, only his NASA ties.
|>
|> Robert Sheaffer may be "Skepticus Maximus", but for the rest of us
|> with open minds, please consider the source.
|>
|> Barb

What makes YOU so sure they are wrong?

And while you're playing guilt by association games, please disclose
all groups you belong to, are associated with, and think highly of.
And please submit the names and associations of all your friends and
everybody who agrees with you.

By the way, and for your information, Oberg and Klass and Shaeffer
would probably not endorse the claim "nothing-is-real".  The UFO
phenomenon is REAL, all right.  It just doesn't have anything to
do with aliens or other paranormal phenomenon.

--
  Robert E. McGrath (who has also been seen in the same room with Phil Klass)
  Urbana Illinois
  [e-mail]

(You'd probably even like Phil Klass if you met him, Barb.  :-))
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13204 alt.alien.visitors:11784 sci.skeptic:35715 talk.bizarre:84933
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,talk.bizarre
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!das.wang.com!wang!news
From: [e-mail] (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: No laughing matter.
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1992 11:42:21 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: talk.religion.newage
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 6

I put SATAN in my KILL_-_FILE!
--
/|/-\/-\       I'll leave you with this saying:
 |__/__/_/     My Aunt MAUREEN was a military advisor to IKE & TINA
 |warren@      TURNER!!
/ nysernet.org
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!uunet!olivea!stratus!florida!lpb
From: [e-mail] (Len Bucuvalas)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Oberg & spelling
Keywords: cia, mj12, bush, Greys contract, Hapsburgs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Dec 92 00:07:23 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 40

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>
>As for the tape itself, yes, I have seen the shuttle tape, and I do not
>feel that the "ice crystals" explanation is sufficient.  It appeared to
>me that the light/ice crystal moved away at a right angle _before_ the
>beam/thruster went through, and I do not know of any ice crystal having
>the presence of mind to move away _before_ something hits or moves it.
>
Yes I saw the tape too.  I can't see how anyone can in honesty
call those things ice crystals. According to what I saw, the
shot seemed to be taken from the shuttle, pointing toward the
rea of the shuttle and down toward the Earth. The objects were
all traveling at the same rate of speed. All of a sudden one of
them sped up..making a 180 turn about and vanished. At the split
second it turned, a beam of something, which Hoagland claims is
a magnetic projectile canon mounted in a satellite, fired
something at the object which turned.

Ice crystals DO NOT speed up and make 180 degree turns.

>I cannot say anything about Hoagland, since I haven't read anything by
>him, and know nothing about him.

Hoagland used to be a member in good standing with NASA.
>
>Gee, so this is what it's like to be flamed.  JW, now I know how you
>feel!

If you believe and accept the fact that there is intelligent
life currently visiting our planet... well ... I hope you like warm
weather! ;^)
>
>Barb

Len
--
*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*
The accountability of government has gone to the point where the very
use of the law is the instrument of illegality.
        -- Ralph Nader @ Harvard Law School, 1/15/92
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!spool.mu.edu!olivea!stratus!florida!lpb
From: [e-mail] (Len Bucuvalas)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: John Winston: Fraud or Mole? (Was Re: Bigfootf spaceman?)
Keywords: cia, mj12, bush, Greys, Forrestal
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Dec 92 00:16:10 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Distribution: usa
Lines: 52

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Kumaran Santhanam) writes:
>> John -
>>
>>      Please, John....who the hell do you think we are?  Why are you trying to
>> discredit this group?  It's not fair to the rest of us who are armchair ufo-
>> logists and are simply trying to arrive at the truth.  Did you really think
>> that you could get away with naming a planet something like Trantor?  Just so
>> everybody knows where that name came from...It's from Isaac Asimov's science
>> fiction series "Foundation."  That's where it's from, not from outer space.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^!!!!!

John...this is true. I have the book too. You know guy, I used to think
that you were an avid researcher with an overactive imagination.

Now I think that perhaps you:

    1) Need psychiatric help or
    2) You're getting paid to do this

At any rate, once I find a deliberate lie in any communication with
anyone .... I cease communicating.  Good bye John...dont bother to
write. And also dont bother to try and convince us that this was a
mistake .... you have been on cable channel 60 in san jose regarding ufo
research...you display intelligence, and therefore you must have read
the Foundation series too.

This was a low one Winston....I, for one, will begin boycotting John
Winston. I will no longer acknowledge him as a person or a poster...or a
bill board for that matter. I will place him in my kill file. For all
intents and purpose as it regards my net reading, John Winston does not
live on this planet and does not post to this net.

>> as a polite entreaty to respect our feelings and purpose here.
>>
>
>His purpose is to discredit this group. Pretty slick I'd say! His persistence
>is incredible. Only someone trying to discredit this group would maintain
>such persistence...
>
>> Thank you,
>> Kumaran
>> --
Thank you Kumaran for pointing this out....

Len

--
*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*
The accountability of government has gone to the point where the very
use of the law is the instrument of illegality.
        -- Ralph Nader @ Harvard Law School, 1/15/92
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:11787 alt.religion.kibology:5122
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!nic.umass.edu!oldman
From: [e-mail] (Tig Stone)
Subject: Re: The John_-_Winston Show... IN BED.
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of Wed, 9 Dec 1992 09:38:29 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: University of Massachusetts at Amherst
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1992 00:33:18 GMT
Lines: 23


In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry) writes:

> That does it.  If John_-_Winston, aka "Bibo", can his own show, I demand
> one as well.  Someone get me a video camera and I'll start making tapes
> for the local cable filler channel.

> I can do that big with the exploding frozed frog that even managed to
> freak out Mike Bent, Boy Scientist.  And I'd show the world 101 uses for
> Mr. Potato Head, unless the FCC stops me.  Of course, every episode we'd
> do a ten-minute segment about that week's redesign of the opening
> titles.  "This week, ITC Jamille Bold Italic with really tight kerns!
> Does this sexy spacing go TOO FAR?"

    But what about the KBS superstation on cable channels across
the world?  Then we could ALL partake in watching it.  Or maybe it
already exists...  You know, the 24 hour-a-day Cartoon Channel?  Or
maybe it should just be part of HappyNet.


--
Tig Stone
([e-mail])
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13205 alt.alien.visitors:11788 alt.religion.kibology:5124
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!ohstpy!vancleef
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Dec 92 20:43:45 EST
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Physics
Lines: 9

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
> Dear Folks: I hope Santa brings you all the good things you deserve.
> John Winston.

A week without your inane posts :)

-Garrett


Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13207 alt.alien.visitors:11789 sci.skeptic:35727
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: The Devil Made Me Do It.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed,  9 Dec 92 19:22:15 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Dear Folks: I believe you will find a Guru or master that didn't take
and eastern name is Saint Germain.
John Winston.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!uwm.edu!spool.mu.edu!sdd.hp.com!wupost!uunet!Cadence.COM!jdm
From: [e-mail] (Joe Mastroianni)
Subject: Famous Air Force Sgt.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1992 22:18:34 GMT
Lines: 50


    I've been reading this group for a few years.  I've done my best
to subtract the self-indulgent ramblings that occasionally pass before
my eyes.  The good thing about e-mail is that if you don't want to
read it, you simply push "n" and it goes away.  Gotta love this new
technology.

    Anyway, I've seen references to an Air Force Officer (or is he a
non-comm) named Richard Doty. As it turns out, I have a friend who is
an ex-Air Force Sgt.. By sheer luck his name is Richard Doty. He may
be a little young to be the same guy discussed in the articles I've
read referencing Sgt. Rich Doty, (The Rich Doty I know was in Vietnam).
But as it turns out, his father was also in the Air Force. Mr. Doty Sr. (
whose name is not Richard) did work on Project Bluebook for some time
and did investigate the Roswell crash.

    Rich himself claims only a few strange incidents in all his flying
days. After a few beers his tongue loostens a little and he is quick to
mention that in his view, every professional pilot, military or commercial,
knows he/she has been "tracked" by something at one time or another.

    Rich recanted events of a post-flight investigation by his superiors
after Rich and his flight crew reporting being followed by a UFO on a
military training flight over the Nevada Desert. According to Rich
the investigating officer asked him, "Do you really want to report this?
Dont you know how much work you're going to cause for nothing?"
Rich was not so subtly told to forget about it and get back into the air.

    Rich also claims that at the November 19th 1978 game between the
Eagles and the Redskins at RFK stadium both teams stopped between plays
to observe two rotating cube-shaped objects. The color commentator
(whose name I can't remember--but I believe it was a CBS sportscaster) said
"I hope they're on our side,"  and the cameras zoomed in on the objects.

   Apparently,films for this game are not available from NFL Films, from
which films of almost every other game in the history of televised football are
available. I hope I got the dates and teams right, if anyone wants to know
for sure, I'll ask Rich. He told me the story after far too many beers and
the details have slipped away.


    Cheers,

    Joe

--
Joe Mastroianni          AKA: AA6YD  AA6YD @ N6LDL.#NOCAL.CA.USA.NA
Cadence Design Systems   Compuserve:  74017,310  Genie: JOE-M
Santa Clara Ca.          "Up the airy mountain;down the rushy glen; we
[e-mail]           daren't go a hunting; for fear of little men "
From: [e-mail] (Kay Linder)
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1992 20:27:16 GMT
Subject: Re: Supernatural Stories
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!hpscit.sc.hp.com!hplextra!hpfcso!kay
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
References: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 1

try alt.folklore.ghost-stories
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!uunet!haven.umd.edu!wam.umd.edu!usenet
From: [e-mail] (PMW "MAP")
Subject: maieno
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News system)
Nntp-Posting-Host: next12pg2.wam.umd.edu
Organization: Workstations at Maryland, University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1992 13:05:41 GMT
Lines: 4


tenalp rehtona morf mai.

ah!
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!darwin.sura.net!haven.umd.edu!wam.umd.edu!usenet
From: [e-mail] (PMW "MAP")
Subject: are you people for real?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News system)
Nntp-Posting-Host: next12pg2.wam.umd.edu
Organization: Workstations at Maryland, University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1992 13:11:35 GMT
Lines: 18

if you are,

i've never been "visited" neither have i "sighted" anything,

however i believe that anything is possible.

it would be terribly wrong for us to assume that we are the center and no
other life is possible.

maybe i'm just a dreamer, like gene roddenberry was, but i hope there are
more beings out there...

by the way, has anyone tried to envision the entire universe in their
head?  i mean the entire unbelievably hugeness of it?  pretty difficult
huh?  the highest number that i can imagine inmy head is about 250,000.
is that low? anyone else?

thanks for you time,  pam
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!rutgers!igor.rutgers.edu!dropout.rutgers.edu!mcgrew
From: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Contact Notes
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Dec 92 06:30:04 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
Lines: 36


    [e-mail] (Jeff) writes:
    And then he read JV, and realized that the guy just doesn't
    get it. And he wondered if there was a reason for this,
    outside of just being a myopic individual.

... No offense, but one man's "myopia" is another's "gimme-the-facts".
I guess I'm one of the myopic ones too, then.  I would point out that
your arguments could be (and have been) used by any number of
religious groups (whose puzzle is also spiritual).  What you're asking
for is a "leap of faith" very like that of every religion there is,
and some of us may not be prepared to make the same leap you do.  The
"leap" you're asking for is in interpretation of a lot of
poorly-collated data.

    Is there a hidden agenda there?

... (since we're telling little stories here) "Its heresy!  It flies
in the face of Church teachings," the Inquisitor cried.  "The woman is
possessed of a hidden agenda -- sent by the devil.  Burn her!"

   Please show me how your attack on JV is any different.


    He has no appreciation for sociological insight that sez "if
    thousands of people tell the same tail, hard evidence or no,
    there is something very serious going on that is most likely
    just exactly what they think it is". (Abduction)

... there may be something seriously going on, to be sure.  But is it
actually abduction by grey aliens that they're all experiencing?  The
evidence is very iffy, to say the least, since (for instance) in large
part the experiences happen during sleep.  (You've never dreamed that
you woke up, but were still dreaming?  Can be very unnerving...)

Charles
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!rutgers!igor.rutgers.edu!dropout.rutgers.edu!mcgrew
From: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: MJ-12 4/4
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Dec 92 06:43:55 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
Lines: 19


    [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels) writes:
        The MJ-12 Documents are real and have been researched by many.

... I would rather say that the evidence is not all in.  As might be
expected, there are a number of 'camps' on the issue.  For instance,
CUFOS is dead certain they are fakes; others are not so sure.   Some
think that the documents are a plant to mask something else (a not
unknown tactic in the spy game -- misdirection.)   Certainly various
intelligence agencies have the resources to fake such documents, and
so do various amateurs.

    Of course that doesn't rule-out 'very well made forgeries' for
    those skeptics out there.

... an interesting distinction from "real". :-)  Its an interesting
problem in document archeology!

Charles
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!darwin.sura.net!jvnc.net!rutgers!igor.rutgers.edu!dropout.rutgers.edu!mcgrew
From: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Serious info request
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Dec 92 06:48:26 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
Lines: 19


    [e-mail] (Max Elliot) writes:
    I have heard numerous stories of alien facilities in the
    desert areas of the southwest.


... the most famous one is Dulce, NM.  You might try out there.  If
you could go (and come back :-) with photos, maps, etc.  it would
probably be a good thing.

    Can anyone out there corroborate any of them?

... nope; the most recent major posting was the "Phoenix Project"
(remember them), who said that Dulce wasn't anything, but their
California site was....

Hope this helps,

Charles
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13208 alt.alien.visitors:11797 sci.skeptic:35742
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Eat Air.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 92 06:13:28 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 8

Dear Breathairians: There was a person a few years back in the US
who told people to not eat anything but air. I personally doubt if he
could do it or did do it but Babaji could. I got up this morning
with a lot of carrots on my mind. Eat fresh carrot juice to improve
your health and eye sight. Use the Bates method of eye exercises to
improve your eye sight. Don't eat too many carrots or you'll turn
orange. Words to live by.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13209 alt.alien.visitors:11798
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 92 06:20:23 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 4

Dear Folks: It's raining here in Sunny Northern California.  At the
present time I am within 50 feet of an orange tree with over 100 oranges
on it. How good can it get?
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13211 alt.alien.visitors:11799 alt.religion.kibology:5147
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 92 06:37:49 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 7

Dear Space Fans: It seems I am hearing a few discouraging words in this
collection. Thank you very much. There is a frequency on which you can
listen to the space people as they wait over the Lake Isabella area
talking to Edwards Air Force Base. After they talk with the air
traffic controllers and wait for a while then they go on over to Groom
Lake but then everybody already knows that.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13212 alt.alien.visitors:11800 sci.skeptic:35745
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!wupost!gumby!destroyer!fmsrl7!ef2007!pms706!ekimmina
From: [e-mail] (Eric Kimminau)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Lucifer.
Date: 10 Dec 1992 14:16:01 GMT
Organization: Ford Motor Company
Lines: 1
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pms001.pms.ford.com

Uriel is mentioned in the book "the satanic verses" as an indian "god" of the hindu (i believe) religion...
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:11801 alt.religion.kibology:5149
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!zazen!psl.wisc.edu!gorski
From: [e-mail] (Tom Gorski)
Subject: Re: Trip on Space Ship 3.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Physical Sciences Lab, University of Wisconsin
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 92 18:35:50 GMT
Lines: 30

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (NASH, DAVID BENNETT III) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Eric Boesch) writes...
>>[e-mail] writes:
>>>Subject: Trip On A Space Ship. Part 3.
>[...]
>>Alien tip #2: If your new braces receive radio broadcasts in the range
>>of 5.77314 to 5.77317 kHz, remove them IMMEDIATELY, even if it costs
>>you all your teeth.  Then call the UFO Task Force.  DO NOT INFORM THE
>>U.S. GOVERNMENT -- they probably already know about it.
>
>Are you suggesting that one can pick up alien transmissions on an AM radio?
>My walkman here beside me picks up from 5.3 to 16 kHz (I believe).
                                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
[...]

Arrrrgghh!  5KHz to 16KHz is still within the confines of the
human AUDIO FREQUENCY SPECTRUM!!!  Such frequencies are hardly suitable
as a carrier for audio!

BTW, the AM band extends from 530 KHz to 1.6MHz--a mere two orders
of magnitude higher than the frequencies listed in the original
post, which could be from no one other than John_-_Winston.  Sigh.

>dbn3.
>-- bow down before the one you serve, you're going to get what you deserve. NIN
>-- an enemy of the Ronald Reagan Republicans.          [e-mail]
>-- the Irony is Delicious. . . . I pay Texas A&M  -- I do not speak for them.
><EOF>

--TG
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!agate!garnet.berkeley.edu!ksanthan
From: [e-mail] (Kumaran Santhanam)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: are you people for real?
Date: 10 Dec 1992 16:51:01 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

pam-

   Yes, we are for real.  There are, however, 2 classes of people in this news-
group.  There are those, like myself, who are part of this group for the purpose
of seriously discussing new information and gathering new insights into the
POSSIBILY of alien visitation.  We are sincerely trying to ascertain the truth
from a lot of other extraneous information.  The other group of people, of which
I am aware of only one, are on here to joke around and ruin the seriousness of
the group for others.  These people include the infamous John Winston.  The
things he says are completely ridiculous and unfair to the serious people in
this group.  They should be ignored or just read for laughs.  I hope that
answers your question about alt.alien.visitors.

Kumaran

--
~|  ~/ ~|   ~| ~~\   ~|   .~~\  ~|~~~\  .~~\  ~~\  ~| :: ksanthan@
   /'   |    |  | \ / |   \__ |  `-- /  \__ |  | \  | ::  soda.berkeley.edu
 | \     \_  |  |  /  |  |    |  |  \  |    |  |  \ | ::
 |  `\    __/   |     |  |    |  |   \ |    |  |    | :: "That's how it is!"
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13213 alt.alien.visitors:11803 sci.skeptic:35755
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!usenet.ucs.indiana.edu!venus.iucf.indiana.edu!battin
From: [e-mail] (L GENE BATTIN)
Subject: Re: Eat Air.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-4
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Nntp-Posting-Host: venus.iucf.indiana.edu
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: VENUS.IUCF.INDIANA.EDU
References:  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution:  usa
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1992 16:55:32 GMT
Lines: 28

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes...
>Dear Breathairians: There was a person a few years back in the US
>who told people to not eat anything but air.

Ambrose Bierce's Devil's Dictionary defines air as a nutricious substance
thoughtfully provided by the creator for the fattening of the poor, or
something like that...

>                                             I personally doubt if he
>could do it or did do it but Babaji could. I got up this morning
>with a lot of carrots on my mind. Eat fresh carrot juice to improve
>your health and eye sight. Use the Bates method of eye exercises to
>improve your eye sight.

Good Lord, is the Bates Method _still_ around? !

>                         Don't eat too many carrots or you'll turn
>orange.

That's a good way to avoid being mistaken for a Grey, isn't it?

>         Words to live by.

                             --Not!
>John Winston.

Gene

Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13214 alt.alien.visitors:11804
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!usenet.ucs.indiana.edu!venus.iucf.indiana.edu!battin
From: [e-mail] (L GENE BATTIN)
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-4
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Nntp-Posting-Host: venus.iucf.indiana.edu
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: VENUS.IUCF.INDIANA.EDU
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1992 17:01:44 GMT
Lines: 10

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes...
>Dear Folks: It's raining here in Sunny Northern California.  At the
>present time I am within 50 feet of an orange tree with over 100 oranges
>on it. How good can it get?
>John Winston.

Did they get that way from eating too many carrots?

Gene

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!news.service.uci.edu!ucivax!megatek!max
From: [e-mail] (Max Elliot)
Subject: Call for info for research...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1992 17:05:10 GMT
Lines: 12


  I tried before, but got no replies, so I'll repost.
  I am looking for any good first hand information on any
  sites in the California/Nevada desert areas that are worth
  investigating. I'll even settle for good second hand info.
  I am interested in doing some hands on research, and am
  willing to post all the results, so.... Or are there really
  none out there?  Anybody willing to vouch for a site? Hmmm?
  How about Area 51?

-Max

Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13215 alt.alien.visitors:11806 sci.skeptic:35762
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!malgudi.oar.net!caen!uunet!munnari.oz.au!news.hawaii.edu!uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu!osborne
From: [e-mail] (Larry N. Osborne)
Subject: Re: Alien Ships.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News Service)
Nntp-Posting-Host: uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu
Organization: University of Hawaii
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1992 18:32:04 GMT
Lines: 15

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

>A high NASA official has publicly stated that were NASA told to send a man to
>the moon and back sometime in the next decade, they'd be unable to do so.

You interest me strangely.  Do you have a source for this quote?
(Mind you, I believe it, I'm just surprised someone from NASA admitted
it.)

-oz
--
[e-mail] (preferred)      | Larry N Osborne
[e-mail]                           | SLIS, 2550 The Mall
fax [phone]                             | University of Hawaii at Manoa
or via W.A.S.T.E.                               | Honolulu, Hawaii  96822
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!darwin.sura.net!wupost!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!rutgers!igor.rutgers.edu!dropout.rutgers.edu!mcgrew
From: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: are you people for real?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Dec 92 18:46:05 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
Lines: 17


    [e-mail] (PMW "MAP") writes:
    by the way, has anyone tried to envision the entire universe
    in their head?  i mean the entire unbelievably hugeness of it?
    pretty difficult huh?  the highest number that i can imagine
    inmy head is about 250,000.  is that low? anyone else?


... that's very, very high.  Most people can visualize (in their
imagination) about 6-10 objects at one time -- that is, different
objects with full detail.

   At another level, I suspect that one would have difficulty
envisioning this planet in its entirety, much less a sizable section
of the universe...

Charles
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!spool.mu.edu!agate!soda.berkeley.edu!sfd
From: [e-mail] (Scott Drellishak)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: are you people for real?
Date: 10 Dec 1992 19:15:28 GMT
Organization: Metaphor Computer Systems
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: soda.berkeley.edu

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (PMW "MAP") writes:
)if you are,
)
)i've never been "visited" neither have i "sighted" anything,

I have.  My grandmother visits every Christmas, and I once saw a movie.

)however i believe that anything is possible.

Me too.  To aid me in my experiments with possibility, please send $20.

)it would be terribly wrong for us to assume that we are the center and no
)other life is possible.

Dreadfully immoral.

)maybe i'm just a dreamer, like gene roddenberry was, but i hope there are
)more beings out there...

Gosh, we need more people like Roddenberry, that's for sure.  Otherwise,
where will future generations hear about "subspace distortion"?

)by the way, has anyone tried to envision the entire universe in their
)head?  i mean the entire unbelievably hugeness of it?  pretty difficult
)huh?  the highest number that i can imagine inmy head is about 250,000.
)is that low? anyone else?

That's very low.  Most people are at least 3 orders of magnitude smarter
than you.  Thanks for playing.

)thanks for you time,  pam

No prob.
--
/--------------------------------------------------------------------------\
| Scott Drellishak   [e-mail]                          |
|                "Spumco ... the Danes call it quality."                   |
\--------------------------------------------------------------------------/
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!news.iastate.edu!IASTATE.EDU!vinch
From: [e-mail] (The Doomsday)
Subject: NEED H*E*L*P on UFO
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: [e-mail]
Keywords: alien and ufo
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (The Doomsday)
Organization: Iowa State University
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1992 20:45:16 GMT
Lines: 20


 I am new to this newsgroup and I didn't follow this newsgroup untill a few
 minutes ago.
 But I need help!! I was asked to prepare an argumentative paper that must
 be on the contra side of the UFO's existence!
 There must be somebody that don't believe the existence of UFO. Please share
 your opinion with me.
 I need your notions by Sunday night to prepare my writing on Monday morning.
 Please help...,please...
 Thanks A LOT !


                     "The easiest thing to solve a problem is to pretend
                      it doesn't exist".

                                        -------Isaac Asimov in God Themselves



                       e-mail address : [e-mail]
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!rutgers!noao!amethyst!organpipe.uug.arizona.edu!helium!corleyj
From: [e-mail] (Jason D Corley )
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: are you people for real?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Dec 92 18:12:28 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Arizona, Tucson
Lines: 17

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Kumaran Santhanam) writes:
>pam-
>
>   Yes, we are for real.  There are, however, 2 classes of people in this news-
>group.  There are those, like myself, who are part of this group for the purpose
>of seriously discussing new information and gathering new insights into the
>POSSIBILY of alien visitation.  We are sincerely trying to ascertain the truth
>from a lot of other extraneous information.  The other group of people, of which
 In that case, why are you opposed to John Winston's posts.  He is the
greates producer of extraneous information on the net!

Come on, all you alt.non.sequitur readers, lets give alt.alien.visitors
something REAL to complain about!!!!!  Naah, just kidding.  I would
never cross-post something like that.  Of course, aliens have never been
conclusively proven to have visited earth, so what the heck?

    Jason
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:11811 alt.religion.kibology:5154
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!darwin.sura.net!wupost!newsfeed.rice.edu!uw-beaver!boesch
From: [e-mail] (Eric Boesch)
Subject: Re: Trip on Space Ship 3.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Hamburger Repair Coordinator for Big Mac #15,343,2342,343
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 92 22:31:47 GMT
Lines: 48

[e-mail] (frost...) writes:
>======================================================================
>Actually, you can pick up alien transmissions on your am radio but it
>is quite well known where they are coming from. The signals also sound
>like waves washing onto a beach, sort of smooth and rhythmic. These
>signals come from the planet Jupiter when it is in the sky. Whether day
>or night the planet has to be in the sky above you so that the earth
>doesn't block out the signals. I don't remember the exact frequency but
>it is about a third of the way up the am band as I recall. Since Jupiter
>is close to a protostar in development and puts out more energy than it
>receives your radio is acting like a tiny radio-telescope when it picks
>it up.
>======================================================================

This is not good science.  Noise travels with great difficulty in thin
air, and interstellar space is an almost perfect vacuum, so radio
waves are almost immobile in space.  A radio wave in a perfect vacuum
does not move at all; that is what is called a "stationary wave".  For
a less extreme example, the first men on the moon heard a radio
programme that researchers discovered had been last broadcast in 1925!
The further away from Earth you go, the farther back in time you go.
Followers of Einstein proved this by an experiment where they kept
very accurate clocks at the top and at the bottom of a very tall
building, and because of the differing distances of the clocks from
the Earth's center, the clocks lost synchronization.  As an extreme
case of this phenomenon, the light traveling from distant galaxies far
away may be billions of years old!

So the Jupiter protostar theory sounds good on the surface but is not
valid.  On the other hand, it is a mathematical fact that the hiss of
an evil machine intelligence subliminally subverting your will over
the radio or telephone is REMARKABLY like the noise made by a
protostar.  Because I am not a conspiracy theorist, I will allow you
to make your own decision which is the more likely explanation.

(Aside: you will note that these laws of physics imply that the center
of the Earth is actually ALREADY IN THE FUTURE relative to us
surface-dwellers.  This does not necessarily imply that there is an
advanced civilization down there, or "up there" as one who lives in
the center of the Earth might call it, but it does suggest that such
theories may have more validity than conventional scientists believe.)

Always willing to help,

Eric Boesch
PhD in Paraastronomy, 1987
Universitat Verbelligten, Bundesrepublik Deutschland
Hohenschreibersputnikfunksignalstrasse
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13217 alt.alien.visitors:11812 sci.skeptic:35786
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!wupost!uunet!noc.near.net!bigboote.WPI.EDU!wpi.WPI.EDU!drwho
From: [e-mail] (Eric Ant Von Laudermann)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Alien Ships.
Date: 11 Dec 1992 01:43:11 GMT
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: wpi.wpi.edu

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>    What I did say was that it was aliens who DID build (or supervise) the
>construction of many Egyptian pyramids.  The pyramids contained their power
>source (crystal?).  The power source had to be contained inside the double
>pyramid.

How did you find this out?

>>  * OLX 2.2 * Bring back A-N airways!!    [e-mail]
>>
--E.V.L. ([e-mail])  # "And for the last time, I'm not Frankemstein,
a.k.a.:  The Eternal Newbie,  # I'm FRANKENSTEIN'S MONSTER!!!"
The Amazing Tubeman!,         # --Woody Allen's "Bride of Frankemstein",
Murphy's Law Incarnate        #                    THE BEN STILLER SHOW
Any similarities between what I say and what I mean are purely coincidental.


Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!agate!rsoft!mindlink!a3241
From: [e-mail] (Gregory Nouch)
Subject: John Winston is full of it !
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 03:12:38 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet)
Lines: 17

Ok guys and maybe gals. There's a guy on this group that's a bit strange. I
don't know where he's getting this information from but it sounds quite
insane. You would have yo be quite gullable to beleif what he's telling us.
For example he said that there examining a alien. If this was true it would
be in the "regular" newspapers. Not just the tabloids. I think most people
here agree with me but I could be wrong.  I agree that you just want
attention and too laugh at all the people that beleif you.



PS, I hope you have fun in your next UFO adventure


                                                  Greg



Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!Don_-_Showen
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Possible kill file uses
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 92 20:35:03 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 6

Darkshot asks,
>Will I ever miss anything important if I killfile ALL messages
from portal.com?

You will not miss a thing,  please do it.
DS
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13219 alt.alien.visitors:11815 alt.religion.kibology:5175
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!uunet!world!kibo
From: [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry)
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman IN BED?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Two rooms filled with typography, in downtown Boston
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 04:44:50 GMT
Lines: 16

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Dear Space Fans: It seems I am hearing a few discouraging words in this
>collection. Thank you very much. There is a frequency on which you can
>listen to the space people as they wait over the Lake Isabella area
>talking to Edwards Air Force Base. After they talk with the air
>traffic controllers and wait for a while then they go on over to Groom
>Lake but then everybody already knows that.
>John Winston.

What is the frequency, Ken_-_neth?

                        -- K.

                        Next time I start a cult
                        I'm changing my name to
                        "L. Dan Rather"
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!caen!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!ira.uka.de!news.belwue.de!news.uni-ulm.de!news
From: [e-mail] ()
Subject: Re: I got high with an alien!!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News Net)
Organization: FACHHOCHSCHULE ULM (GERMANY)
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 07:47:14 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.22
Lines: 10

YEEEEEAAAAHHHHHHH SURE !!!!!!!!

Don't we all get high with aliens sometimes ???

GET LOST !!!!!!!!!!!





Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!yale.edu!ira.uka.de!news.belwue.de!news.uni-ulm.de!news
From: [e-mail] ()
Subject: JOHN WINSTON FLAMING AREA
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News Net)
Organization: <NONE
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 08:18:24 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.22
Lines: 11

Hey !

Did anybody notice that this area turned into a
John Winston flaming area ?????????????????????
I'm really sick of it.

Cheers

Heiko


Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!uwm.edu!caen!uunet!europa.asd.contel.com!howland.reston.ans.net!wupost!csus.edu!netcom.com!netcomsv!terapin!croth
From: [e-mail] (Charles Roth)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
References: <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Dec 92 22:10:54 PST
Organization: BBS
Lines: 6

>This is incorrect.  Santa lives in a shopping mall next to
>my office building.  I have seen him, and for a small fee
>I can have a photo taken of Santa and me.

Ever notice how the words Satan and Santa are basically the same?  Now what
does this suggest?
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!spool.mu.edu!umn.edu!lynx!triton.unm.edu!omega
From: [e-mail] (   --==[]==--   )
Subject: STRANGE DREAM
Message-ID: <ac!r=[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 92 13:50:41 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
Lines: 50



I had a strange dream last night.  I don't understand it.  Someone
may care to comment.  It may just be an overactive imagination.

It seems I was involved with someone and we stumbled upon the fact
that the Government was supressing the operation of small commercial
enterprises that did lazer light technology research and development
projects.  We investigated.  It seems a form of hypnosis was being
used to control people.  I don't know who was behind the hypnosis,
or why it was being used.  The person I was with had become
hypnotised.

Then, I was laying down in a semi-conscious state and four humaniod
beings, about 5 feet tall, approached me.  I first noticed their
presence as one very large being, about 8 feet tall, of the same
sort, as it appeared a the door way.  It was like it was there, but
it was just an image, and then it was gone, and the little ones
appeared.  The beings really did not have bodies.  They seemed to be
light energy or some kind of energy holding a human form.  Their
color was a soft dull off white.  They moved swiftly, in unison, and
with intent.

I was fearful of the beings as I had never seen anything like them.
I felt that I was powerless, so I just laid there and allowed myself
to drift into unconciouness while they did what they needed to do -
to me, I presume.  I woke up to reality - about an hour ago.  This
was an otherwise normal day and night.

I am not involved in lazer light technology and to my knowledge I
have never had any alien encounters or seen anything of the sort.  I
am an entreprenuerial sort who considers an alien presence here a
possibility.  I am from New Mexico, and having lived in Socorro, I
have always found a facination with the incident there in the early
'60's.

Does anyone care to comment ?    Charlie.













Organization: Doctoral student, English, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!spool.mu.edu!agate!linus!alliant!merk!spdcc!das-news.harvard.edu!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!ak35+
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1992 13:58:38 -0500
From: Andy Kurtz <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Howe's An Alien Harvest
In-Reply-To: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]>
Lines: 48

>I remember seeing some posts about this book a while ago, but I don't remember
>what the consensus was: is the book serious or a product of flakedom? While I
>have not seen the book, I have recently discovered that
>
>  a) it is self-published
>  b) it is very expensive
>
>(a) is generally a danger signal, and given (b), I'm wondering if obtaining
>the book is worth looking into or not. I have visions of ridiculous stories
>like MJ-12 but complete with full-color pix of mutilated livestock.

As I said in the original posting, I obtained the book through our
inter-library loan network.  There are a number of libraries throughout
the country that have it, as well as the television documentary Howe did
before publishing the book.  Thus, you should be able to get hold of a
copy at little or no cost...

I do not think I would be as suspicious of so-called vanity publications
as you are.  As we all know, publishing, like most other retail
enterprises, is a scam.  They make their money by reaping the benefits
of other people's hard work.  Not only that, but they have a monopoly on
ideas, censoring those that do not fit their corporate ego-ideals (much
the same way as record companies do).  If only more people would publish
their own material...

Howe's book is expensive because it is a class production!  Lots and
lots of photos (color and b&w, text, transcripts, documents, etc.).

>I have visions of ridiculous stories
>like MJ-12 but complete with full-color pix of mutilated livestock.

Exactly!  But where else are you going to get full-color pix of
mutilated livestock!! Though, as I said above you should be able to get
it for free if you do a little foot-work.

This, of course, is not to say that I fully (or even in part) agree with
her theories.  First off, she uncritically presents W. Cooper's
documents as truth.  She also has no trouble with hypnosis.  In fact,
she comes off sounding pretty naive and unquestioning throughout the
whole book.  At the same time, this does not allay the fact that
something very weird was (is?) going on.  And as far as I know (!!),
Howe's book is the only work to exhaustively document the phenomenon.

BTW, thanks to everyone who responded concerning the UFO Newsclipping
Service.  I still would like info regarding "Stigmata," which does/did
cover animal mutilations.

andy
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13220 alt.alien.visitors:11821 sci.skeptic:35800
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Silican Valley Skywatchers
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 92 06:36:52 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 8

Dear Homo Sapiens: Well I knew it would finally come to this because
Kibo forwarned me. Yesterday I got E-mail from God. I guess Kibo has
some sort of high connections.
 Last night I interviewed Denice (Pinky) Solis from this Net and her
friend Teresa Corona. They have a UFO  club and do a great work in
regard to UFO abductions. Maybe she will be so kind as to tell us
about her work.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13221 alt.alien.visitors:11822
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!caen!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 92 06:45:25 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 5

Dear People of Noble Heritage: I would put down some words of great
import but you how it is. I think I have gone to the well one too
many times. Gotta go to work to bring home  the bacon and I am a
vegetarian.
John Winston. I am going to work to bring home the carrots.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!news.centerline.com!noc.near.net!lynx!cschmidt
From: [e-mail] (Christopher Schmidt)
Subject: Re: are you people for real?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Christopher Schmidt)
Organization: Northeastern University, Boston, MA. 02115, USA
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 14:50:04 GMT
Lines: 8

> There are, however, 2 classes of people in this newsgroup.

There is a third class, by far the most tedious: Those who
waste everyone's time with an endless stream of ridicule,
most of it directed toward John Winston.

Christopher Schmidt
[e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!nevada.edu!news.unomaha.edu!cwis!stone
From: [e-mail] (Travis Stone)
Subject: Visualizing The Solar System
Message-ID: <stone.724089260@cwis>
Keywords: Wowsers!
Sender: [e-mail] (UNO Network News Server)
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 15:54:20 GMT
Lines: 37



Recently, a person named "Pam" (or "pam" in little bitty letters,
like e.e. cummings) said that the largest number he/she could
imagine was 250,000---or something of that order.

Another poster asked if anyone had tried to imagine the whole
Universe, with it's mind-boggling immensity, and that got me
to thinking about a mental picture I like to play with now and
then which I'd like to share with you folk:

Picture (preferably in color, and not necessarily to scale) the
Solar System, just like a still photograph.

Now, with the planets *not* spinning on their axes, picture them
moving in slightly elliptical orbits about the Sun, all in the
same plane.  Got it?  Good.

Now, picture the planets moving in their slightly elliptical
orbits about the Sun, with the orbital planes slightly tilted
with respect to one another.

Now, picture the planets moving in their slightly elliptical,
noncoplanar orbits around the Sun, and add their spins about
their own axes.

Now, picture the spinning planets moving in their slightly elliptical,
noncoplanar orbits around the Sun with their moons revolving
about them.

Finally, picture the spinning planets moving in their slightly
elliptical noncoplanar orbits around the Sun, their moons whirling
around them, and the planets precessing and nutating.

Quite a sight, isn't it?

T.R. Stone
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:11825 alt.religion.kibology:5195
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!tamsun.tamu.edu!rigel.tamu.edu!dbn7350
From: [e-mail] (NASH, DAVID BENNETT III)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Trip on Space Ship 3.
Date: 11 Dec 1992 10:57 CST
Organization: Texas A&M University, Academic Computing Services
Lines: 62
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rigel.tamu.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Eric Boesch) writes...
>[e-mail] (frost...) writes:
>>======================================================================
>>Actually, you can pick up alien transmissions on your am radio but it
>>is quite well known where they are coming from. The signals also sound

[stuff about natural signals from Jupiter deleted]

>This is not good science.  Noise travels with great difficulty in thin
>air, and interstellar space is an almost perfect vacuum, so radio
>waves are almost immobile in space.  A radio wave in a perfect vacuum
>does not move at all; that is what is called a "stationary wave".  For
>a less extreme example, the first men on the moon heard a radio
>programme that researchers discovered had been last broadcast in 1925!

I'm not sure if I understand all of this, but are you saying that
it takes about 45 years for radio signals to travel that tremendously
huge distance (:}) between the Earth and the moon?  At that rate,
it could take thousands of years to travel out of the solar system.
The reason I ask, is because if the above is correct, then why is
SETI even in existance?  If one year we do find what could be
evidence of intelligence by way of radio signals, that intelligence
could have been dead for millions, even billions of years.  What
good is evidence that billions of years ago there was another
intelligence out there?  We cannot and will not ever see them.  By the
same token, when our signals reach any other systems where there
could be life, we also could have been gone for millions of years.

[stuff about clocks and an evil machine theory (:}) deleted]

>(Aside: you will note that these laws of physics imply that the center
>of the Earth is actually ALREADY IN THE FUTURE relative to us
>surface-dwellers.  This does not necessarily imply that there is an
>advanced civilization down there, or "up there" as one who lives in
>the center of the Earth might call it, but it does suggest that such
>theories may have more validity than conventional scientists believe.)
>
>Always willing to help,
>
>Eric Boesch
>PhD in Paraastronomy, 1987
>Universitat Verbelligten, Bundesrepublik Deutschland
>Hohenschreibersputnikfunksignalstrasse
dbn3.
-- bow down before the one you serve, you're going to get what you deserve. NIN
-- an enemy of the Ronald Reagan Republicans.          [e-mail]
-- the Irony is Delicious. . . . I pay Texas A&M  -- I do not speak for them.
<EOF>
(There is nothing more, but I must add more thatn what was written before.)
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!tamsun.tamu.edu!rigel.tamu.edu!dbn7350
From: [e-mail] (NASH, DAVID BENNETT III)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: are you people for real?
Date: 11 Dec 1992 11:13 CST
Organization: Texas A&M University, Academic Computing Services
Lines: 28
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rigel.tamu.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Christopher Schmidt) writes...
>> There are, however, 2 classes of people in this newsgroup.
>
>There is a third class, by far the most tedious: Those who
>waste everyone's time with an endless stream of ridicule,
>most of it directed toward John Winston.

Agreed, which is why I have been flaming him by mail.
Flame by mail.  Your point still gets across, and the readers
of this group don't have to wade though other people's flames.
I suggest that people ignore him on the net, and flame the crap
out of him by mail.

No smilies.


>
>Christopher Schmidt
>[e-mail]
dbn3.
-- bow down before the one you serve, you're going to get what you deserve. NIN
-- an enemy of the Ronald Reagan Republicans.          [e-mail]
-- the Irony is Delicious. . . . I pay Texas A&M  -- I do not speak for them.
<EOF>




Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13223 alt.alien.visitors:11827 alt.religion.kibology:5197
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!uvaarpa!murdoch!poe.acc.Virginia.EDU!rwd4f
From: [e-mail] (Rob Dobson)
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Virginia
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 16:36:29 GMT
Lines: 21

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Dear Space Fans: It seems I am hearing a few discouraging words in this
>collection. Thank you very much. There is a frequency on which you can
>listen to the space people as they wait over the Lake Isabella area
>talking to Edwards Air Force Base. After they talk with the air
>traffic controllers and wait for a while then they go on over to Groom
>Lake but then everybody already knows that.
>John Winston.

Dear God-fearing people: I believe that all of these space people that
Mr Winston and others talk about are not actual biological organisms like
humans but either Demons or Angels. Read the Bible sometime: in Genesis
you will find no mention of God creating humanoids, or, in fact, any other
life, on any othe planet besides Earth. If you really are seeing or hearing
people floating over Lake Isabella what you are really hearing is probably
demons speaking in an attempt to get you to curse Christ. Be careful; even
if the space people appear to be angels, it is very likely that they
are really demons in the guise of angels. DO NOT FALL DOWN AND WORSHIP
THEM--no real angel would ask such a thing.


Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!comp.vuw.ac.nz!waikato.ac.nz!aukuni.ac.nz!kcbbs!kc
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Visual perspective on U
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
From: [e-mail] (Robert Sutton)
Date: 12 Dec 92 11:02:13 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Kappa Crucis Unix BBS, Auckland, New Zealand
Lines: 23

[e-mail](Charles Mcgrew) 10 Dec 92 18:46:05 GMT  types--
>Most people can visualize (in their imagination) about 6-10 objects
>with full detail.

Most people maybe but I wouldn't take Betts (atrocious pun alert) on
that though.Don't know if it might be connected to the digit short term
memory thing but some would have trouble to visualize 1 thing.
On the ET front legend has it that 1 alone has visualized the entire
Universe in full.

And the lone creature to emerge from The Cosmic Perspective Vortex sane
(are we to believe that bit?) was the 1 with the 2 heads.

Makes me think though of that old boner about wether the aliens are
playing us the fool with the from our own minds to us hallucnation
induced thing.

********************************
ARE ETOI SPACESHIPS SHY?
OR ARE THEY JUST WAITING
TO SEAL THE ROYALTY DEAL.
********************************

Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13224 alt.alien.visitors:11829 sci.skeptic:35813
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!darwin.sura.net!spool.mu.edu!umn.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!jeffp
From: [e-mail] (Jeff)
Subject: Re: Silican Valley Skywatchers
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: BeHereNow
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 19:55:15 GMT
Lines: 17

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Dear Homo Sapiens: Well I knew it would finally come to this because
>Kibo forwarned me. Yesterday I got E-mail from God. I guess Kibo has
>some sort of high connections.
> Last night I interviewed Denice (Pinky) Solis from this Net and her
>friend Teresa Corona. They have a UFO  club and do a great work in
>regard to UFO abductions. Maybe she will be so kind as to tell us
>about her work.
>John Winston.

I guess Denice was under the impression that the show would air right away,
but I was watching last night and it was just a rerun:-(

John,
please let us know when the show will air.

Jeff-
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:11830 alt.religion.kibology:5203
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!spool.mu.edu!sgiblab!rtech!ingres!kevinq
From: [e-mail] (Kevin Quinn)
Subject: Re: Trip on Space Ship 3.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Kevin Quinn)
Organization: Ask Computer Systems Inc., Ingres Division, Alameda CA 94501
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Dec 92 20:16:40 GMT
Lines: 38

>>[e-mail] (frost...) writes:
>>>======================================================================
>>>Actually, you can pick up alien transmissions on your am radio but it
>>>is quite well known where they are coming from. The signals also sound
>
>[stuff about natural signals from Jupiter deleted]
>
>>This is not good science.  Noise travels with great difficulty in thin
>>air, and interstellar space is an almost perfect vacuum, so radio
>>waves are almost immobile in space.  A radio wave in a perfect vacuum
>>does not move at all; that is what is called a "stationary wave".  For
>>a less extreme example, the first men on the moon heard a radio
>>programme that researchers discovered had been last broadcast in 1925!
>
Sh--!  This stuff is priceless!  Were this true, oh god of the dweebs,
we could never have communicated with our astronauts while they were in
space and on the moon.  Oh, that's right, I forgot - they carried a
plastic tube (a looooong one) full of air for the radio waves to travel
through...

I'm sure you are also a 'heavy booter' - one who believes the moon-walkers
wore heavy boots to keep from flying from the Moon's surface...

Maybe it's just 'cause it's a rainy Friday - but the astounding, fundamental
ignorance of basic science and the world around us as shown here
flabbergasts me.  Sadly, it seems a prime requirement for original
posts on a.a.v.

By the way - someday, head on down to your local library and check out a
children's book on physics, radio, and EMF.  Read it.  Remember to look
up the definition of standing waves...


kbq
--
Kevin Quinn                         | [e-mail]
                                    | {mtzinu,pacbell,ll-winken,sun}!ingres.com
My opinions are my own.  Should you think otherwise, think again.
Xref: icaen alt.conspiracy:20703 sci.skeptic:35815 alt.alien.visitors:11831
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!cs.uiuc.edu!mcgrath
From: [e-mail] (Robert McGrath)
Subject: Re: UFOs & Jimmy Carter
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept of Computer Science
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 20:38:36 GMT
Lines: 41

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Don Allen) writes in part:
|> an UNidentified craft.
|>
|> I witnessed (along with about 50 others) the infamous Gulf Breeze
|> "UFO" in Florida...all I ever saw was a very brilliant light that
|> initially appeared as bright white. It appeared to me to be about
|> 50 ft in diameter, however it was across from Pensacola bay and
|> appeared to me to be about 2 miles out across the bay, but distances
|> are hard to estimate.
...as are sizes, particularly of lights on a uniform dark background.
It is well know that it is very difficult to determine the distance,
size (since your eye can't really tell the distance) and even the
direction of a bright spot on a dark background.

|> It may have been closer or further. One thing
|> I quite certain is that it wasn't a flare..it didn't exhibit *any*
|> flare like characteristics but it did exhibit a complete change
|> of color, from bright white to very deep red. The change was not
|> sudden, but gradual, as if a rheostat was turned. The light source
|> was pretty stable, with no signs of flickering, flashing, sparks
|> of any kind.
What you describe is EXACTLY like the fireworks I used to make when
I was a kid.
  -you use different poweders to make the flare change colors.
  -if you mix the powders at the transition, rather than have a
   sudden change, you get a gradual change in color.
  -If you do a good job you get bright, continuous light with no
   big flickers.
  -when suspended from a free baloon (made from thin transparent
   plastic, lifted by the heat of the flare) there is NO WIND
   relative to the payload (because the balloon moves with the
   breeze), so flames burn VERY steadily.
  -sparks, small flickers, etc. sould not be visible at a couple of
   miles anyway.
I've made these things.  It ain't that hard.  The results are definitely
cool.  The results are not especially mysterious.

--
  Robert E. McGrath
  Urbana Illinois
  [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!sdd.hp.com!hpscit.sc.hp.com!icon.rose.hp.com!duane
From: [e-mail] (Duane)
Subject: John Lear on KDWN Las Vegas Tonight
Sender: [e-mail] (News Administrator)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 21:49:22 GMT
Organization: HP - Systems Technology Division
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1.8 PL6]
Lines: 22

Greetings,

           John Lear will be on the Art Bell show out of Las Vegas 720AM at
1:00 in the morning PST.














Duane

California  Dreaming  of  Even more Snow ... B)

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!sdd.hp.com!decwrl!deccrl!news.crl.dec.com!dbased.nuo.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!nntpd2.cxo.dec.com!acetek.enet.dec.com!timpson
From: [e-mail] ()
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 27
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Reply-To: [e-mail] ()
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 20:02:17 GMT


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Charles Roth) writes:

|>
|>>This is incorrect.  Santa lives in a shopping mall next to
|>>my office building.  I have seen him, and for a small fee
|>>I can have a photo taken of Santa and me.
|>
|>Ever notice how the words Satan and Santa are basically the same?  Now what
|>does this suggest?


    Nothing!   Get a LIFE!!!!!


    Steve Food_for_the_Greys/Reptoids
--
        -----------------------------------------------------------------
        |                                                               |
        |  My atheism, like that of Spinoza, is true piety towards the  |
        |  universe and denies only gods fashioned by men in their own  |
        |  image to be servants of their human interests.               |
        |                                                               |
        |                                  -- George Santayana          |
        |                                                               |
        -----------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!caen!nic.umass.edu!noc.near.net!black.clarku.edu!vax.clarku.edu!slapointe
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Narrow-minds and Religion
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Clark University
Date: 11 DEC 92 21:46:35 GMT
Lines: 28

Hi, all you beautiful people out there!  My name's Sarah(aka Goddess of Spinach)and while I am reading your lovely UFO folder for the first time, I was quite
annoyed by an earlier post and feel obliged to respond!  To the person who said
that the allmighty bible says nothing about aliens and that, therefore, they must either not exist, or be angels or devils....
1.  Why is it that, whenever some interesting, possibly factual, body of knowled    ge comes to light, like UFOs or astrology or telekinesis, some narrow-minded    follower of Christian persuasion has to paraphrase the bible and tell us
    that this knowledge must be false?  This is not the way to gain more ideas
    about the world around us, but only to keep perpetuating the same old ideas
    over and over.  As I recall, the Catholic church also tried to execute or
    at least exile scientists of Medieval times who said the earth was round,
    the planets revolved around the sun, and that the heavens were perfect and
    changeless(thereby ruling out the possibility of comets and sunspots).


2.  Why should we as a modern society keep blindly following the church, whose
    ideas have NEVER BEEN omnipotent, and who have tried to violently snuff out
    scientific enquiry?  The bible does not hold all the answers!  Open your
    mind!!!!

3.  Do you think all of the strange UFO-linked happenings simply did not exist,
    like the church ignoring the comets people saw in the sky?  Any truly
    open and inquiring mind would want to investigate these matters rather than
    simply condemn them!  How can a man in a primitive village in Pakistan
    possibly see and describe in detail the EXACT SAME alien being a man from
    Detroit does?  Obviously, SOMETHING is happening here.  There's simply
    WAY too much information about these occurences ALL AROUND THE WORLD for
    any inquisitive person to feel comfortable dismissing!

That's all for now.  Think about it.
-Sarah LaPointe, UFO ponderer, Clark U.,MA.
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:11835 alt.religion.kibology:5213
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!wupost!cs.utexas.edu!tamsun.tamu.edu!tamuts!n029gg
From: [e-mail] (Adam Roach)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Trip on Space Ship 3.
Date: 11 Dec 1992 23:45:10 GMT
Organization: Little piles, all around my room
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tamuts.tamu.edu
Keywords: eat more mousse

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Kevin Quinn) writes:
}Sh--!  This stuff is priceless!  Were this true, oh god of the dweebs,
}we could never have communicated with our astronauts while they were in
}space and on the moon.  Oh, that's right, I forgot - they carried a
}plastic tube (a looooong one) full of air for the radio waves to travel
}through...
}
}By the way - someday, head on down to your local library and check out a
}children's book on physics, radio, and EMF.  Read it.  Remember to look
}up the definition of standing waves...

Hey, Kevin... I hear they're passing out clues at Target during the holiday
season. Tell 'em you need one to help you rocognize humor; they'll be more
than happy to help you.

--
Adam Roach (aka Myrddin, Lowry)        | "...Actually, Adam, I don't think it
Internet: [e-mail]               |  matters, unless you plan to change
THEnet:   ZEUS::ABR8030                |  the `Hiroshima' decor for your room."
Uunet: ...!sequent!geac!tamu.edu!adamr |   -My father, on bedroom color schemes
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!sdd.hp.com!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!olivea!stratus!florida!lpb
From: [e-mail] (Len Bucuvalas)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: maieno
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Dec 92 23:24:45 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 15

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (PMW "MAP") writes:
>
>tenalp rehtona morf mai.
>
>ah!

Maha!
    Yaha...
Shatameni fuji karangi?

--
*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*
The accountability of government has gone to the point where the very
use of the law is the instrument of illegality.
        -- Ralph Nader @ Harvard Law School, 1/15/92
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13225 alt.alien.visitors:11837 alt.religion.kibology:5219
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!crcnis1.unl.edu!wupost!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 92 17:20:34 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 5

Dear Folks: As best I can remember the frequency to listen on at
lake Isabella for the space people going to Groom Lake is about 127. mc
AM. They probubly move it around a little from that stop though.
John  Winston. Maybe I'll ask a friend of mine.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:11838 alt.religion.kibology:5221
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rphroy!caen!uunet!walter!att-out!pacbell.com!rtech!ingres!kevinq
From: [e-mail] (Kevin Quinn)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Trip on Space Ship 3.
Keywords: eat more mousse
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Dec 92 01:28:10 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Kevin Quinn)
Organization: Ask Computer Systems Inc., Ingres Division, Alameda CA 94501
Lines: 18

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Adam Roach) writes:
[ my crap deleted...]
>Hey, Kevin... I hear they're passing out clues at Target during the holiday
>season. Tell 'em you need one to help you rocognize humor; they'll be more
>than happy to help you.
>
Yo, Adam - Target is friggin out!  If traffic isn't too bad, maybe I'll
brave the shoppers tonight on the way home...

Told you it was a bad Friday.  Didn't believe me, huh?


kbq

--
Kevin Quinn                         | [e-mail]
                                    | {mtzinu,pacbell,ll-winken,sun}!ingres.com
My opinions are my own.  Should you think otherwise, think again.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13226 alt.alien.visitors:11839
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!wupost!uunet!noc.near.net!bigboote.WPI.EDU!omar.WPI.EDU!drwho
From: [e-mail] (Eric Ant Von Laudermann)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Date: 12 Dec 1992 02:23:07 GMT
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute
Lines: 68
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: omar.wpi.edu

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rob Dobson) writes:
>Dear God-fearing people: I believe that all of these space people that
>Mr Winston and others talk about are not actual biological organisms like
>humans but either Demons or Angels. Read the Bible sometime: in Genesis
>you will find no mention of God creating humanoids, or, in fact, any other
>life, on any othe planet besides Earth.

The Bible also says that the Earth goes around the sun, that pi=3,
that God *made* the Pharoah keep Moses from leaving Egypt, and has an
explicit list of which animal to kill for each sin you commit. The
Bible claims that knowing the difference between good and evil is evil
in itself, and that a sinner's descendants are just as guilty as the
sinner was.  It claims that every human has sinned, which, I presume,
also includes infants who die mere minutes after birth; I guess these
infants go straight to Hell.

The Bible does not mention life on other planets.  It doesn't mention
the *existence* of other planets, either.  But they're there.
The Bible does not mention America, or Antarctica, or the dinosaurs, or
television, or the Usenet.  It doesn't mention *you*, either.  There
are lots of things the bible doesn't mention.  Perhaps there was
simply not enough room?  Perhaps God didn't want the focus of the book
to get buried and swamped by other things?  Perhaps many of the things
God could have described (like TV's, VCR's, Post-It note pads)
wouldn't have made sense to the readers of the first century A.D., so He
left them out?

It also says that the end of the world is just around the corner, and
that was almost 2000 years ago.  I wonder what you were doing on
October 28, 1992?

>If you really are seeing or hearing
>people floating over Lake Isabella what you are really hearing is probably
>demons speaking in an attempt to get you to curse Christ.

Do you believe in God?  In the angels?  If so, why do you assume that
any supernatural event must be evil?

I have heard many stories about aliens interacting with humans, but I
have never once heard of an alien that told anyone to curse Christ.

>Be careful; even
>if the space people appear to be angels, it is very likely that they
>are really demons in the guise of angels. DO NOT FALL DOWN AND WORSHIP
>THEM--no real angel would ask such a thing.

And no alien ever has.

Did it ever occur to you that maybe the angels and demons in the Bible
*are* aliens, but since nobody knew there were any other planets
back then, nobody had invented the word "alien", so they called them
"angels" and "demons" instead?

If the angels really were aliens, would it make them any less superior
or holy?  If God the Creator was an alien, would he be any less God?
(Besides, God *is* an alien.  Is He from the planet Earth?  No.)

Did it ever occur to you that if you have to read a book in order to
see the glory of God, then something is terribly wrong with the
Universe?

I am a Christian.

--E.V.L. ([e-mail])  # Biblical contradiction of the week:
a.k.a.:  The Eternal Newbie,  # Luke 14:26,
The Amazing Tubeman!,         # Matthew 19:19
Murphy's Law Incarnate        #
Any similarities between what I say and what I mean are purely coincidental.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13227 alt.alien.visitors:11840
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!crcnis1.unl.edu!wupost!cs.utexas.edu!sun-barr!ames!agate!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!gatech!concert!rock!darkshot
From: [e-mail] (Michael B Garrett -- Chudys)
Subject: Raising dust as I vacate...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: CONCERT-CONNECT -- Public Access UNIX
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 03:02:22 GMT
Lines: 10

Ok, I've had it. As soon as the Jesus Contingent showed up, with the usual
wagonload of angels and demons, I figure this group is doomed.

I really do think that there should be a place to discuss this stuff rationally-but it obviously ain't here.

Later, kids. Don't forget to check under the bed. I'm off to mail my
/etc/termcap to someone- about 100 times. B-)

'Shot

Xref: icaen sci.skeptic:35832 sci.astro:24135 sci.space:38963 alt.alien.visitors:11841
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,sci.astro,sci.space,alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!sdd.hp.com!usc!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!noc.near.net!news.cs.brandeis.edu!binah.cc.brandeis.edu!CORBISIER
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: STS-48 and "SDI": Oberg vs. Hoagland
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Brandeis University
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>,<[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 08:26:07 GMT
Lines: 17

Robert McGrath writes:

>You'd probably even like Phil Klass if you met him, Barb.  :-))

Well, guess what?  I _have_ met him at the MUFON conference in Albuquerque
last summer.  Did I like him?  Well, I respect his opinion, but I can't
see us hanging out for any extended period of time.  :)

All groups I belong to/think highly of?  Well, let's see, I was in 4-H as
a kid, I think highly of the Boy Scouts, Mothers Against Drunk Driving and
the ASPCA...this would take an awfully long time to continue...

Geez, people, why all this flaming?  WHY CAN'T WE JUST LIVE TOGETHER???

Peace on earth, goodwill toward men (and women),

Barb
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13228 alt.alien.visitors:11842 sci.skeptic:35835
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: The Devil Drives a UFO.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 92 06:21:06 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 8

Dear One and All: If I were looking for Denice I would look for her
next week and the week after that.  I interviewed her twice. It has
been reported to me by an atheist that I have offended God fearing
people. If people want to believe that Devils and Demons drive UFOs
that Ok with me. I have never seen it myself. But if you doubt it
just get on the Hollywood Freeway during rush hour.
John Winston. I figure God has a sense of humor. He made us didn't he-
she?
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13229 alt.alien.visitors:11843 alt.religion.kibology:5227
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!spool.mu.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: The Demon Driven UFO.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 92 06:42:10 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Dear Ones: It's good to hear all of you expressing your ideas. Who knows
you may be right.
John Winston
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!spool.mu.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Possible kill file uses
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 92 06:50:48 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 2

Dear Person: If you ever find out how to that let me know.
John Winston
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!spool.mu.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: are you people for real?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 92 06:52:51 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 2

The last time I checked I was for real.
John Winston.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!spool.mu.edu!umn.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!rkrouse
From: [e-mail] (Robert K. Rouse)
Subject: Re: John Lear on KDWN Las Vegas Tonight
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 15:02:05 GMT
Lines: 27

  I heard a little of the John Lear interview and I think that
Art Bell is a lousy interviewer.  I would like to hear Mr. Lear
interviewed by Terrie Gross on "Fresh Air".  I wrote a letter
to NPR asking for interviews on this subject and gave them a
list of people I wanted to hear.  I haven't gotten a response
after 2 weeks and I really don't expect a response.

  NPR is very conservative by my standards.  Also, there is an
article about the Pentagon superplane on the front page of
front page of the San Jose, California Mercury News newspaper.
In the article the Pentagon and Sam Nunn say there is no
such plane.  Humm I wonder whats making all the noise.  If
it's not ours then maybe it belongs to an ET.

  I sure hope that the new administration respones to
questions about government secret projects.

--
============================================================
  "No creature that is intelligent and with the right
   values is an alien to me."
                        John Salter
============================================================
    Robert K. Rouse        [e-mail]
============================================================


Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: John Lear on KDWN Las Vegas Tonight
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 92 06:55:53 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 2

If you will please try to post what this person has to say on the radio.
John Winston
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!psuvax1!psuvm!dms180
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 13:02:03 EST
From: <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject:    NOWSPEAK I
Lines: 19

I saw a royal woman in peasant garb.  She was trying to explain to the local
boys that she didn't really belong there.  She said she was from another
world.  "Not another planet", she was emphatic about that.  "Just another
world!" she would shout.  "And how do I get back?" was the question she kept
repeating, over and over.  This world seemed to be getting on her nerves.
She seemed intent on trying to explain the difference between her "world"
and the world these boys were inhabiting at this very moment.  "There really
is NO difference!" She was quite agitated.

The boys were playing spit-ball and fence the pig and really weren't paying
much attention to her.  That seemed to unsettle her even more.  "It's a
joke", she cried, as tears began forming in the corners of her smile.  The
boys noticed, as boys seem to notice the most unusual things, that as the
woman tried to convince then that there were things that they didn't notice,
that a cloud began forming around her.  The faster she spoke, the faster her
hands tried to illustrate what she thought were the most important things
she was saying, the faster the the sparks of dew and sand and light and dark
and leaves and pollen and dustand...grew around her to form the most perfect
aura of immaculate speculation the boys had ever seen.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!psuvax1!psuvm!dms180
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 13:21:39 EST
From: <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject:    NOWSPEAK II
Lines: 5

Actually they had no idea what was going on and even if they did they did
they would think that they were still sleeping in their comfortable race-car
beds in their "How do we make the mortgage payment this month?  homes that
even then still belonged to the bank, not their parents, dreaming of
Christmas.  Just as she was forming the words to repeat her question,
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!psuvax1!psuvm!dms180
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 13:30:26 EST
From: <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject:    NOWSPEAK III
Lines: 5

She thought she'd ask one more time, no matter how futile this pretense
seemed to be.  As the cloud closed in around her SHE FOUND IT beginning to
become very hard to breathe.  "This is it, I suppose", she thought to
herself, and as the boys attention was drawn to this spectacle, she
disappeared.        (See AAA News for more info.)
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!psuvax1!psuvm!dms180
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 13:42:14 EST
From: <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject:    AAA NEWS
Lines: 7

I can't write...years ago...a man came to me asking for sanctuary from the
throngs of movie-goers, pressing forward, anxiously awaiting fresh pop-corn.
I was shocked...in one moment...I too felt the pain.  I swept him up,
pushing away from the crowd, resisting the urge to wrap the chain around his
neck.

Hi X32KB @ CUNYVM
Xref: icaen alt.religion.scientology:3728 alt.religion.kibology:5228 alt.slack:4966 alt.alien.visitors:11852
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology,alt.religion.kibology,alt.slack,alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!uchinews!machine!ddsw1!dattier
From: [e-mail] (DWT)
Subject: Re: DECEMBER 18,1992
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 16:50:13 GMT
References: <SaN=[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Contributor Account at ddsw1, Chicago, Illinois  60657
Lines: 17

[e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry) wrote in <[e-mail]>:

| [from alt.religion.scientology]
| In article <SaN=[e-mail]> [e-mail] (David Bonnell)
| writes:
| >A suprise is coming on Dec 18, 1992.
|
| Big fat hairy deal.  With Kibology, every day is a surprise.  Every day
| is equally different in EXACTLY THE SAME WAY!  Enjoy Kibology, and you
| won't believe how low you level of disbelief can be.

Is there some connection between Bonnell's "suprise" and Parry's "you level"?
Kibo drops the R at the end of a syllable because he's from Boston, but how
did Bonnell get into that habit in Ann Ahba -- er, Ann Arbor?

David W. Tamkin   Box 59297   Northtown Station, Illinois  60659-0297
[e-mail]    CompuServe: 73720,1570    MCI Mail: 426-1818
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!wupost!cs.utexas.edu!rutgers!igor.rutgers.edu!dropout.rutgers.edu!mcgrew
From: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Narrow-minds and Religion
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Dec 92 21:47:20 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
Lines: 67


    1.  Why is it that, whenever some interesting, possibly
    factual, body of knowledge comes to light, like UFOs or
    astrology or telekinesis, some narrow-minded follower of
    Christian persuasion has to paraphrase the bible and tell us
        that this knowledge must be false?

... I would instead wonder why this bothers you?  Any opinion deserves
to be aired, even if its something you don't want to hear.

    As I recall, the Catholic church also tried to execute or at
    least exile scientists of Medieval times who said the earth
    was round, the planets revolved around the sun, and that the
    heavens were perfect and changeless(thereby ruling out the
    possibility of comets and sunspots).

... yes, about 400 years ago, and obviously this should be held
against them for all eternity.  Equally obviously, the Church still
does this; I read about people being excommunicated for teaching that
comets and sunspots exist every day.  Shocking.


    2.  Why should we as a modern society keep blindly following
    the church,

... I wasn't aware that we were.  (Its not clear to me whether you are
attacking Christians in general or Catholics in particular; since the
Catholics are the only ones you mention by name...)  Certainly the US
has never been a particularly Catholic-Church-oriented country;
Protestantism is more the rule.  (Perhaps you should look up the
Reformation to see how the Protestants got their start...  You might
also check to see how many subsections of Protestantism there are.)

   In any case, I would argue that "we as a modern society" do not
blindly follow any church at all.

    ... who have tried to violently snuff out scientific enquiry?

... Although I agree it is a perfectly rational position to argue that
the Church should be ground into the dust for things done 400 years
ago, I'm not so sure its feasible.


    3.  Do you think all of the strange UFO-linked happenings
    simply did not exist, like the church ignoring the comets
    people saw in the sky?

... I would point out that the Catholic Church was not alone in
thinking this; perfectly ordinary scientists used to claim that
meteors did not exist, as you may recall.   Indeed today, the Catholic
Church takes (to my knowlege) no position on lights-in-the-sky at all.
The US Government, on the other hand...

    How can a man in a primitive village in Pakistan possibly see
    and describe in detail the EXACT SAME alien being a man from
    Detroit does?  Obviously, SOMETHING is happening here.

... please tell the US Government about this.  Not only would they be
interested in hearing it (try AFOSI first), but they'd be in a
position to do something about it.  Interestingly enough, the Church
wouldn't do anything to you, but the Government might put you in jail.
Weird, huh?

Charles

PS - I am not an "anti-UFO", like Boris Yelsin, I keep my feet on the
ground, and keep reaching for the czars...
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13230 alt.alien.visitors:11854 alt.religion.kibology:5236
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!darwin.sura.net!udel!wupost!uunet!noc.near.net!news.cs.brandeis.edu![e-mail]
From: [e-mail] (Adam Levin)
Subject: Re: The Demon Driven UFO.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Brandeis University
References: <[e-mail]>,<[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 21:25:22 GMT
Lines: 14


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
>Dear Ones: It's good to hear all of you expressing your ideas. Who knows
>you may be right.
>John Winston

But what about us Zeroes? How can you expect to be taken seriously
yourself when you only acknowledge half of the binary number system?
Sheesh!


Adam Levin     [e-mail]
"Yeah. Like what's feminine protection? A chartreuse flamethrower?"
    --Portnoy, Bloom County
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:11855 alt.religion.kibology:5238
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!jnielsen
From: [e-mail] (John F Nielsen)
Subject: Re: Trip on Space Ship 3.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: magnusug.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Organization: The Ohio State University
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 23:31:51 GMT
Lines: 25

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Eric Boesch) writes:
>[e-mail] (frost...) writes:

>This is not good science.  Noise travels with great difficulty in thin
>air, and interstellar space is an almost perfect vacuum, so radio
>waves are almost immobile in space.  A radio wave in a perfect vacuum
>does not move at all; that is what is called a "stationary wave".  For
>a less extreme example, the first men on the moon heard a radio
>programme that researchers discovered had been last broadcast in 1925!
>The further away from Earth you go, the farther back in time you go.


This is a joke!

Comparing sounds waves to light waves. Good stuff!

And that means the TV broadcasts of the Apollo Space Mission
were actually sent before WWII! Wow, I guess Neil Armstrong aged well.

john
--
John Nielsen   MAGNUS Consultant            ______   ______   __  __
[e-mail]         /\  __ \ /\  ___\ /\ \/\ \
                                           \ \ \/\ \\ \___  \\ \ \_\ \
  Back off man, I'm a Scientist!            \ \_____\\/\_____\\ \_____\
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13231 alt.alien.visitors:11856 alt.religion.kibology:5239
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!think.com!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!jnielsen
From: [e-mail] (John F Nielsen)
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: magnusug.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Organization: The Ohio State University
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 23:38:09 GMT
Lines: 39

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rob Dobson) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>>Dear Space Fans: It seems I am hearing a few discouraging words in this
>>collection. Thank you very much. There is a frequency on which you can
>>listen to the space people as they wait over the Lake Isabella area
>>talking to Edwards Air Force Base. After they talk with the air
>>traffic controllers and wait for a while then they go on over to Groom
>>Lake but then everybody already knows that.
>>John Winston.
>
>Dear God-fearing people: I believe that all of these space people that
>Mr Winston and others talk about are not actual biological organisms like
>humans but either Demons or Angels. Read the Bible sometime: in Genesis
>you will find no mention of God creating humanoids, or, in fact, any other
>life, on any othe planet besides Earth. If you really are seeing or hearing
>people floating over Lake Isabella what you are really hearing is probably
>demons speaking in an attempt to get you to curse Christ. Be careful; even
>if the space people appear to be angels, it is very likely that they
>are really demons in the guise of angels. DO NOT FALL DOWN AND WORSHIP
>THEM--no real angel would ask such a thing.
>


Well what you say may very well be true if you can PROVE that your
religion is better than anyone else's. Can you prove anything in
Genesis?

Believing they are aliens is just as much an act of faith as
believeing they are demons or devils.

john



--
John Nielsen   MAGNUS Consultant            ______   ______   __  __
[e-mail]         /\  __ \ /\  ___\ /\ \/\ \
                                           \ \ \/\ \\ \___  \\ \ \_\ \
  Back off man, I'm a Scientist!            \ \_____\\/\_____\\ \_____\
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!spool.mu.edu!wupost!waikato.ac.nz!aukuni.ac.nz!kcbbs!kc
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Santa & Satan
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
From: [e-mail] (Robert Sutton)
Date: 13 Dec 92 11:00:26 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Kappa Crucis Unix BBS, Auckland, New Zealand
Lines: 27

In article <[e-mail]>,[e-mail] Charles Roth writes:
>Ever notice how the words Satan and Santa are basically the same?.Now
>what does that suggest?.

[e-mail] Fri 11 Dec 1992 20:02:17  replies---
>Nothing. Get a LIFE!!!!!!

Whose LIFE?
What about your LIFE?
Or wont any ole life do?
Could it be sold or rented out?
Or is it already(c)?

As for Satan & Santa....Other than a re-allocation of letters the only
thing it now suggests to me is that atheists sometimes get hot under
the proverbial collar about people who claim to believe in S deities
they don't believe exist.

Anyway is it connected to Apollo 8 in some old/new way?
As I can't see any other connection with alt.alien.visitors..

************************
ARE ETOI SPACESHIPS SHY?
OR ARE THEY JUST WAITING
TO SEAL THE ROYALTY DEAL
*************************

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!yale.edu!yale!gumby!destroyer!mudos!grex!mcdaniel
From: [e-mail] (Tim McDaniel)
Subject: Re: Narrow-minds and Religion
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: GREX Public Access Unix [phone]
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 01:00:53 GMT
Lines: 10

Historical note: it has been known since Greek times (at least) that
the Earth is round.  Educated medieval Europeans knew this.  Columbus's
critics never disputed that the Earth was round; they pointed out
(correctly) that Columbus's estimate of the diameter of the Earth was
way low.  (And the Catholic Church didn't get into significant burning
until the 13th Century anyway.)

--
Tim McDaniel
Internet: mcdaniel@{grex,m-net}.ann-arbor.mi.us, [e-mail]
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!nic.csu.net!eis.CalState.EDU!tdenbo
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Call for info for research...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
From: [e-mail] (Tom Denbo)
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 04:16:06 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Calif State Univ/Electronic Information Services
Lines: 25

[e-mail] (Max Elliot) writes:
>
>   I tried before, but got no replies, so I'll repost.
>   I am looking for any good first hand information on any
>   sites in the California/Nevada desert areas that are worth
>   investigating. I'll even settle for good second hand info.
>   I am interested in doing some hands on research, and am
>   willing to post all the results, so.... Or are there really
>   none out there?  Anybody willing to vouch for a site? Hmmm?
>   How about Area 51?
>
> -Max
>
I hear that Area 51 (Groom Dry Lake) is near highway 375 between Hancock
Summit and Coyote Summit.  I've also hear that listeners to a Vegas radio
station have gone out as a group and have seen these beasties.

Gee, sounds like a real opportunity for some entrepreneur to set up tours,
eh?

How about:  Come to Vegas and don't forget to take a tour of Area 51, the
place where the Aurora space ships fly!

I think a vacation in Vegas might REALLY be interesting!

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!wupost!spool.mu.edu!agate!rsoft!mindlink!a7605
From: [e-mail] (Robert LaCasse)
Subject: Re: are you people for real?
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 06:02:41 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet)
Lines: 17

        I received a radio report in 1976 stating thar one of us "Humans "
had just been abused, "the usual way"so I did a telekinetic scan and found
them to where I would assume to be anywhere between Andromeda and Triangulum
m33,yeah the little one, I boorishly crashed the Musrhroom Heads'usual saucer
like ship and did considerable damage to their ship according to the pissed
off looks on the Mushroomheads'so called faces. I've been avoiding them
since. Some aliens don't relise that we don't have a well developed sensory
system to surcomvent pain, so I quess they don't realise that we don't like
the painful afflictions.
        Most aliens are outstandingly not a pertinent threat; bizarre, and
can be spotted quite easily through their earthling mediums, most are
exhibited as eccentrics, and fanatics.

--
".SIGNATURE- [e-mail]."     ( # 7605 )
I am a special F/X photographer and am curently a student of Business Admin.
Mgmt. with a wide variety of interests.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!think.com!yale.edu!spool.mu.edu!olivea!charnel!sifon!thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu!durocher
From: [e-mail] (Phil)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: orientation of the group and dissinformation project Winston
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Dec 92 06:31:46 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Distribution: usa
Organization: McGill Research Center for Intelligent Machines, Montreal, Canada
Lines: 28
Nntp-Posting-Host: vangogh.mcrcim.mcgill.edu

Without any offenses to Mr Winston or whoever he is or work for, I would
like to know (and at the same time provide new comers to this group with same
needed info about) how to remove all postings related to John_-_Winston or any
other "contributor" for which I fell is taking too much
bandwith and seemingly doing a good job at diluting the whole subject of ufo's.

There is enough people on the net that would like to see this newsgroup
with more serious, more objective postings, with subject closely related
sightings, reports, experiences, facts on government continous close lips
efforts, or doing published article reviews.

It is reasonable to link ufology discussion with a spiritual discussion
as to look outward for aliens visitors we are also searching inward into our
existence and purpose. However, I think there is enough going
on in the world right now to prevent dissemination of information related to
ufo (denial, dissinformation, secrecy laws, ...) to make the main purpose of
this newsgroup one of providing an
opportunity to disseminate first hand information in order to help everyone
build an opinion supported by facts about the existence of alien races
visiting or residing earth, and government or para-governement establishments
 dealing with it.

--
---
Phil Durocher                   McGill Research Centre for Intelligent Machines
[e-mail]      Computer Vision and Robotics Lab
                                McGill University, Montreal
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!usc!wupost!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbnewsc!cbfsb!att-out!pacbell.com!hoptoad!chroma
From: [e-mail] (Steve in the Secret Labs)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Dec 92 14:33:35 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Steve in the Secret Labs)
Distribution: world
Organization: Skyline Genetic Engineering
Lines: 28


REgarding good ole JW ...Well can you say: "flat affect" and "SIMULATION"
in the same breath. Sounds like a cute hack to me, but it, uh sort of uh,
wears out. But fun to read sometime. Kill! Kill! MAGIC FILE kill! at other
times. As someone once pointed out, why do aliens give themselves names
that are easily translated into English from perfectly vanilla Earth Languages.
Why do tall musclebound babes (of either sex) or tribes of Amazon-Girl-Jocks
never emerge from flying saucers? It is all pretty curious when one looks
at the symbolic meaning of what goes in and out of flying saucers and the
images of the "Aliens" that emerge. Aliens are suprizingly close to home in
both their looks and behavior overrall. Somethings one wonders, without trying
to be pejorative, what type of mushroom some people had when they had
certain experiences, becuase UFO experiences do seem to have an uncanny
resemebelence to all sorts of altered states of consciousness brought on
by all sorts of things. They are also pretty close to all sorts of things
like dreams, hypogogic and hypnopompic hallucination/imagery and such stuff.
This might not explain all of these sorts of experiences, but it certainly
rings the proverbial bell for closeness etc. and is probably well worth
investigating and looking into from a variety of perspecitives.



                Be Seeing You,
                   steve


rep:[e-mail]

Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbnewsi!cbnewsh!att-out!pacbell.com!hoptoad!chroma
From: [e-mail] (Steve in the Secret Labs)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Call for info for research...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Dec 92 16:33:45 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Steve in the Secret Labs)
Organization: Skyline Genetic Engineering
Lines: 47

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Max Elliot) writes:
>
>  I tried before, but got no replies, so I'll repost.
>  I am looking for any good first hand information on any
>  sites in the California/Nevada desert areas that are worth
>  investigating. I'll even settle for good second hand info.
>  I am interested in doing some hands on research, and am
>  willing to post all the results, so.... Or are there really
>  none out there?  Anybody willing to vouch for a site? Hmmm?
>  How about Area 51?
>
>-Max
>


I am suprised no one has done this. I used to jokingly suggest
that if people send me the money I would do it. I have all the
maps of Dulce and most of the "suspect mesa " and all that. Once
when I was off the net for quite some time, and hard to find, due
to perfectly mundane nasty events, it was suggested that I had
in fact gone to do such a thing and that I had dissappeared and it
was kind of a joke. But still I have yet to go to these places.
At least some people have to have gone there. It might have been
the case of "went there" and "found nothing" so decided that in
order not to be laughed at they kept their mouth shut. I have tried
to investigate 2 things like this so far. When I lived in West Virginia
I investigated the "Mothman" sightings, and when I lived in the
Santa Cruz Mountains, I tried to investigate the legends of a Satanic
Cult supposed operating there called "The 4 pi". The results from
the first was intriguing but inconclusive. That is somebody was
frightened by SOMETHING, but who knows what it was. Could never find
anything that held much water with the 4-pi stuff. Either it doesn't
exist or it is very well hidden. What I did find was a bunch of teenagers
into Heavy Metal having as a friend would say "too much fun." This
was a bunch of people who KNEW that just a couple of upside down crosses
could set off a whole chain of weirdness that they could later laugh
at, they would regularly place a few strtegically near an easy to upset
Fundamentalist Church and wait until they got set off, then they'd have
a great deal of fun laughing about it.


                be seeing you,
                   steve

rep:[e-mail]


Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!munnari.oz.au!metro!grivel!alsvid.nr.une.edu.au!peg!golight
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: are you people for real?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Dec 92 04:36:00 GMT
References: <[e-mail].e>
Sender: Notesfile to Usenet Gateway <[e-mail]>
Lines: 7
Nf-ID: #R:[e-mail].e:-357978650:peg:422800035:000:377
Nf-From: peg.UUCP!golight    Dec 12 23:36:00 1992


G'day Pam.... you say 250,000 is top's and then ask if it's
low...me thinks not for you & anyway what diff does it make?  Have
you ever experienced a time when you have knowingly been a equal
part of the whole universe?  At such time you know that there's no
requirement to hold numbers in ones head.  Try riding the light
sometime and juz experience!  Regards.... >:-] Photon
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13232 alt.alien.visitors:11865 sci.skeptic:35847
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Tunnels #1.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 92 06:52:36 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 52

Subject: Tunnels.
  About 5 years ago a sugar cane cutter down in Puerto
Rico found a tunnel near the city of Mayaquez. Since that
time a person by the name of Wesley Blume and some
scientist have been checking it out.
  It seems they have discovered  an undersea tunnel between
Puerto Rico and Spain, which they believe connected the
fabled continent of Atlantis and Europe 10,000 years ago.
The 3,000 mile-long tunnel begins on the west coast of
Puerto and emerges in the Pyrenees Mountains, in the
northern Spain.
  Wesley Blume has led a team through the tunnel this summer.
It's about 90 feet wide and 60 feet high, with walls  as smooth
as glass yet pliable as rubber.
  The walls radiate a greenish yellow light with not appaarent
power source.
  The air remains breathable and the pressure is constant even
five miles below the surface.
  The walls radiate a greenish yellow light with no apparent
power source.
  The tunnel is not a freak of mature. It was made by intellignet
beings. It is very, very old and could date back to at least
40,000 years ago.  It  is incredibly strong yet capable of bend-
ing and twisting with the shifting of the Earth's crust.
  Blume , Borovy and the five other members of the interna-
tional team believe the tunnel may be a remnant of the legendary
lost continent of Atlantis.
  It was part of a vast network of such tunnels connecting the
mid-Atlantic continent with the rest of the planet.
  The vast distances were probably covered by high speed ve-
hicles powered by electricity, nuclear energy, or sound.
  Borovy says the tunnel dips deep into the Earth, running under
the ocan at depths of five to ten miles.
  Two years ago, Blume led a small group into the cavern to
explore  the tunnels radiating form it. One of the tunnels led them
two miles into the earth before they realized there was something
special about it. Blume put together the current team last year to
explore the tremendous tunnel more closely, taking along a Land
Rover and an ample supply of gasoline.
  It took the seven-man group 17 days to make the trip between
Mayaguez and the Pyrenees.
   Blume and the other members of the international team hope to
study the tunnel more this spring. There are other tunnels which
we believe lead to other parts of the earth. The cavern seems to
have been a sort of Grand Central Station for Atlantis or whoever
built the tunnel.
  So there you have it folks. Is it true? Is it false? Is it food for
thought?
Source of Information:Secember 15, 1992-Sun-23
End Part 1.
John Winston

Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13233 alt.alien.visitors:11866 alt.religion.kibology:5256
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!spool.mu.edu!news.nd.edu!mentor.cc.purdue.edu!noose.ecn.purdue.edu!sparkyfs.erg.sri.com!csl.sri.com!nntp1.radiomail.net!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Let's Take A Trip Part 5.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 92 06:56:17 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 61

Subject: Take A Trip. Part 5.
  I then asked him why were they trying to reach us and talk
to the people of earth.
  He said they were primarily attemplting to reach  as many
people as they could. They had instrumentation on board their
ships, that as they flew around the planet, they could pick up
on individuals who had telepathic potential.  The main
reason they were here was to help raise the general level of
awareness of all of the life forms on the planet earth.
  He kept using this term life forms, and I kept thinking he
meant people. It wasn't until later that he came back and pointed
out to me that he meant all of the life forms, not just people.
  Soltec said the reason they were doing this was to help
people through this transition  into the new awareness state,
that he had mentioned, which the earth, as well as other planets
in the Solar System would  experience shortly.
  One of the results of all of this would be that, because of this
ending of an era,  there was going to be a meeting between
the space people and the people of earth, between the Con-
federation and human beings. So an  effort was underway to
bring this about without scaring people, etc.
  I then asked the big question, why me? He said they had
detected some telepathic ability in me and that others had also
been contacted.
  The only other persons that I knew of at that time who
claimed to have been contacted was one George Adamski
and  the other was Dan Fry. I knew about Rick Williamson,
but not as having had a personal contact, just contact via radio.
    He said quite recently they had taken one of our people to
new aYork and back in just a brief interval of time. Im-
mediatelly I thought of Dan Fry, and then Soltec hesitated in
the middle of his sentence and said, "Yes, in a small round
craft, a remote controlled craft."  He did not actually say he
confirning Dan Fry's experience, but he did, because that is
the way Dan Fry had told his story.
  He said that besides talking to me they had talked to many,
many other people.  They had talked with the political leaders
of various nations around the world, scientists, etc., but the
results had  been very disappointinbg.  so there was a new
effort  underway (this was in 1954) to reach the people them-
selves, rather than the leaders.  Apparently, they had landed
and actually talked to various leaders which Soltec later
explained.
  We then had a discussion as to the length of time they had
been observing us. He said yes , they had been studying our
world ever since it had, one, been discovered; and two,
when they discovered what a really strange place the earth
was.
  I asked him how far back that went. He said about two
million of our years, when the earth was first dicoverd by the
Survey. At that time there were no human life forms on earth,
but there were animals and different types of vegetation.  The
thing that intrigued them was what he described as the crude-
ness  and the ferocity of the life forms toward each other; the
struggle that was going on between them. They just could not
understand this, even to this day.  It presented them with a
tremendous puzzle.
  This is me (John Winston) speaking now. I believe you will
find that the space people like a good puzzle.
End Part 5.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13234 alt.alien.visitors:11867 sci.skeptic:35849
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!spool.mu.edu!news.nd.edu!mentor.cc.purdue.edu!noose.ecn.purdue.edu!sparkyfs.erg.sri.com!csl.sri.com!nntp1.radiomail.net!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Prize
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 92 07:57:54 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 8

Dear Folks: I just got the prize in from Kibo. I'm overwhelmed
with gratitude for the honor of excepting this great prize from
his organization and followers. I believe it had to do with something
I said about an INVISIBLE BABY. There was also something else in the
package but I hesitate to ask what it was. The instructions were
written in a foreign language.
John Winston. It was probubly written is Solar Max or Solax Mal. I
never can get those two straightened out.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13235 alt.alien.visitors:11868
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!spool.mu.edu!news.nd.edu!mentor.cc.purdue.edu!noose.ecn.purdue.edu!sparkyfs.erg.sri.com!csl.sri.com!nntp1.radiomail.net!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Skeptic's UFO. Part 3.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 92 08:44:08 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 43

Subject: Skeptic's UFO. Part 3.
  I had been discussing this subject in the past and then got on the subject
of pyramids so now we go back to the information of the Skeptic's UFO.
  This information came from a person by the name of Charles A. Silva. His
book is called Date With The Gods. Charles is about one of the most sincere
skeptics that I have ever heard about. At the present time (as of about last
year) he  is in prison for some reason and I don't know that reason.
  Charles is the person who showed Shirley McClain around in South America and
then Shirley made a mini-series on TV about the experieces.  After Charles
saw how the TV show went over big and Shirley apparently made a lot of money
on the show, David decided that he would sue Shirley for a part of the money
made from the show. That is at least what is said about him. I don't know
whether it was true.  I would love to make a movie of his book. I figure he
is a shady character and would be a good one to follow when he was shown
some things about UFOs. If the space people could convince him they can
convince anyone.
   Anyway in parts 1 and 2 we talked about how Charles or whatever I called
him at the time came in contact with a young looking lady down in South
America.  She turns out to be about 300 of our Earth years old. Now you
would think that coming in contact with a person from another planet and all
that would cause Charles to be very serious and everything but he finally
had sexual relationsions with the young looking lady. It seems that she uses
the name Rama. She and her friends live in the icy peaks of the mountains
close to where she met Charles.
  I'll try to not be very graphic about this but one day Rama put on a
demonstration for Charles. She proceeds to devoid herself of clothes and
puts on a special type of garment that she takes from a bag. With this
garment on she stands on a rock and starts to lighting up like a christmas
tree. She looks just the Virgin of Guadalupe. I hope that doesn't offend any
religious people but that's what she did.
  Later on Rama took Charles aboard a space craft and they went to some very
primitive Earth people and she did this garment thing in front of them and
the Earth people thought that they were gods and they fell down and
worshiped them. Rama then taught the people and told them how they should
conduct themselves.
  On another occasion Rama was asked what books a person should read to learn
the truth about UFO and she said to read the books written by T. Lobsang
Rampa.
  Rama many times called Charles by the name of Chacho because that is the
name that the friends of Charles called him.
  That's all the time I have for now.
End Part 3.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13236 alt.alien.visitors:11869 sci.skeptic:35853 talk.bizarre:85384
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!spool.mu.edu!hri.com!noc.near.net!mars.caps.maine.edu!maine.maine.edu!ik20001
From: [e-mail] (Solipsist@Large)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,talk.bizarre
Subject: Re: No laughing matter.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Dec 92 23:42:09 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
 <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
 <[e-mail]>
 <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Maine System
Lines: 28



[e-mail] (Daniel M Silevitch) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail]
>(Eric Kimminau) writes:
>|>
>|> |> 2. Have you considered sending mail to his sysadmin?
>|> |>
>|> |> % mail [e-mail]
>                  ^^^^^^^^
>|> |> Subject: Satan is bothering me
>|> |>
>
>What makes you think that hell is an edu site? I think that the correct
>e-mail adress is root@9th_circle.hell :)
>
>Daniel Silevitch                             [e-mail]
>Massachusetts Institute of Technology

What -- haven't you ever visited the MIT Grad School?  Or *any*
Grad School?

The Devil is real...and he's on your Dissertation Committee....
--
Eric Alfred Burns                        "Life is full of decisions
Solipsist at Large                        but you never get to make any."
"It's all in your mind"
[e-mail]                           --Linus Van Pelt
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!usc!wupost!waikato.ac.nz!aukuni.ac.nz!kcbbs!kc
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Aurora?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
From: [e-mail] (Robert Sutton)
Date: 14 Dec 92 11:48:51 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Kappa Crucis Unix BBS, Auckland, New Zealand
Lines: 21

[e-mail](Robert K.Rouse) Sat 12 Dec 1992 15:02:05 GMT  types---
>Also there is an articleabout the Pentagon superplane on the front
>page of front page of the San Jose,California Mercury News newspaper
>In the article the Pentagon & Sam Nunn say there is no such plane.Humm
>I wonder what's making all tne noise.If it's not ours then maybe it
>belongs to an ET.

Thier should now be an article in The latest edition of Janes Defense
Weekly on Aurora.I don't know if that's a superplane but I've heard
no noise on it so far.The reports I heard on local radio & BBCWS Newshour
the Saturday before last said it's claimed it can go at Mach 8 to the
edge of space.

I suppose you could call it anAurora Borealis?n

************************
ARE ETOI SPACESHIPS SHY?
OR ARE THEY JUST WAITING
TO SEAL THE ROYALTY DEAL
*************************

Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13237 alt.alien.visitors:11871 sci.skeptic:35854 talk.bizarre:85388
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,talk.bizarre
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!enterpoop.mit.edu!bloom-picayune.mit.edu!athena.mit.edu!dmsilev
From: [e-mail] (Daniel M Silevitch)
Subject: Re: No laughing matter.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News system)
Nntp-Posting-Host: w20-575-43.mit.edu
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 18:57:45 GMT
Lines: 31

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Solipsist@Large) writes:
|>
|>
|> [e-mail] (Daniel M Silevitch) writes:
|> >In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail]
|> >(Eric Kimminau) writes:
|> >|>
|> >|> |> 2. Have you considered sending mail to his sysadmin?
|> >|> |>
|> >|> |> % mail [e-mail]
|> >                  ^^^^^^^^
|> >|> |> Subject: Satan is bothering me
|> >|> |>
|> >
|> >What makes you think that hell is an edu site? I think that the correct
|> >e-mail adress is root@9th_circle.hell :)
|> >
|> >Daniel Silevitch                             [e-mail]
|> >Massachusetts Institute of Technology
|>
|> What -- haven't you ever visited the MIT Grad School?  Or *any*
|> Grad School?
|>
|> The Devil is real...and he's on your Dissertation Committee....
|> --

Sorry, I'm just a freshman :) In another few years, however...

Meanwhile, MIT undergrad is doing a reasonable impersonation of hell.

Daniel Silevitch
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:11872 alt.conspiracy:20828 sci.skeptic:35856
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!att!att!fang!tarpit!tous!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Subject: FILE: HUFON report on Underground Base in Calif
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 19:41:42 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 188



This copyrighted article originally appeared in the November 1992
HUFON REPORT, the newsletter of the Houston UFO Network, Inc. For more
information call [phone].

See accompanying GIF file, UGBASES.GIF
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
[ Not included here - Don ]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------


UNDERGROUND BASES IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA

  There has been a great deal of new information about UFO activity in
Southern California, specifically in the vicinity of Lancaster, Palmdale and
Edwards AFB.  It appears that three research facilities operated by Northrop,
McDonnell-Douglas and Lockheed are involved with developing new types of
aircraft which possibly utilize anti-gravity propulsion.  There are also
reports by people who say they work at (or used to work at) these facilities.
They describe huge, elaborate, underground complexes that are linked
together by tunnels.  Not only that, but some local residents have told UFO
researchers that they have been abducted and taken to an underground
facility where they report seeing humans in military uniforms and small
grey-skinned "alien" beings.  An outline of my preliminary on-site
investigation follows:

The Northrop facility goes by the name of "The Tejon Ranch" (pronounced
tay-on).  It is sometimes referred to by UFO researchers as the "Tehachapi
Ranch."  It is located in the foothills of the Tehachapi mountains, at the
mouth of Little Oak Canyon, about 25 miles northwest of Lancaster,
California.  It is not under restricted airspace.  Although the public is
told that this is a cattle ranch, no livestock are visible anywhere on the
property.  UFO researcher, Bill Hamilton says that if asked, Northrop
Corporation will say that this is an "electromagnetic research facility".

UFO Researcher, Norio Hayakawa, reports that the signs at the main entrance
gate read:  "PRIVATE PROPERTY-NO TRESPASSING."  Other signs read:  "DANGER!
POISON DEVICES IN THE AREA!  THESE DEVICES ARE DANGEROUS.  THEY CONTAIN
DEADLY CYANIDE.  STAY AWAY AND KEEP YOUR DOGS AWAY.  THESE DEVICES ARE THE
PROPERTY OF THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT AND ARE USED FOR PROTECTION OF
LIVESTOCK AND GAME ANIMALS.  TAMPERING WITH THESE DEVICES OR THIS SIGN IS A
FEDERAL OFFENSE.  THE UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE."  It is the
opinion of some researchers that there is no cyanide and these signs merely
serve as a deterrent.  This facility does not appear to have anything to do
with livestock.  Another sign attached to the cattle gate reads:  "NORTHROP
CORPORATION-PICO RIVERA."

Norio Hayakawa also reports that a white van with government plates is seen
entering the cattle gate daily at 7am, 3pm, and 11pm.  It is driven by a
uniformed guard with a Northrop arm patch, and usually contains additional
military personnel in uniform.

In the aerial photos, the long, wide surfaces are not runways. There are
white-painted diamond-shaped openings on these surfaces. A white pylon is
visible in the center of one diamond shape.  A pylon "rack" and antenna
array are located near the main buildings.

One obvious purpose of this and the other facilities operated by McDonnell-
Douglas and Lockheed is for "Stealth" aircraft research.  Various objects or
aircraft shapes can be placed on the pylons and radar or other types of
energy can be projected at the aircraft shapes so that the reflected energy
can be measured or other types of experiments can be made.  There may be
other purposes for this arrangement.

The Northrop facility is rumored to have at least 42 underground levels and
is said to connect to other underground facilities by an extensive network
of subterranean tunnels.

Many strange aircraft have been seen flying over and around the area,
including glowing disks, triangle shapes, large boomerang shapes, elongated
shapes with lighted windows, and small glowing spheres.

There is one report from a woman who lives about 10 miles east of the
Northrop facility.  She says that she saw a very large glowing disk hovering
over the buildings at the northwest end.  The disk was described as being as
wide as the group of buildings, which would make it several hundred feet in
diameter!

Small disks have been reported to be seen coming and going, from the area
near the base, perhaps using the white diamond shapes on the "runways" for
entry and exit.

Black helicopters are commonly seen flying around.  While Bill Hamilton and I
were near the cattle gate entrance, we saw a dark colored UH-1 "Huey"
helicopter approach the area from the direction of Edwards AFB.  We lost
sight of it as it flew into a canyon just north of the area.  We did not see
it land at the base.  There is rumored to be a disguised entrance in the
Tehachapi mountains that may be used by helicopters and perhaps other types
of craft.


The McDonnell Douglas facility is sometimes referred to as the "Llano"
facility.  It is located at the site of the old Gray Butte Airport, about
six miles southwest of El Mirage dry lake and about nine miles northeast of
Llano, California.  It is not located under restricted airspace.

The original triangular runway configuration is still visible but the
runways are no longer used for conventional aircraft takeoffs and landings.
Large letters on one runway read "NO TRESPASSING UNSAFE FOR LANDING."  Signs
attached to the perimeter fence read:  "TRESPASSING-LOITERING FORBIDDEN BY
LAW.  RIGHT TO PASS BY PERMISSION AND SUBJECT TO CONTROL OF OWNER."

The main buildings and antennas are at the west end.  A large building with
internal crane slides on two tracks and can be positioned over a fixed pylon
in order to place an object on top of the pylon.

Unusual glowing objects are seen mounted on this pylon at night.  I myself
have seen a glowing object on this pylon that varied in intensity from a dim
white to brilliant red/orange.

Small glowing spheres have been reported to approach curious onlookers at
night.  It is thought that these glowing objects might be some type of
monitoring device.  The maneuvering abilities of these spheres defy
explanation.

The Lockheed facility is called the RCS (Radar Cross Section) test range.
It is sometimes referred to as the "Hellendale" facility.   This is a
genuine underground base.  It also may function as a C.o.G. (continuity of
government) facility.  It is located next to the site of the old Hellendale
auxiliary airport, six miles north of Hellendale, California and two miles
south of the southern edge of the Edwards AFB restricted airspace.  It is
shown as a circle with an X on the Los Angeles aviation sectional chart. The
triangular runway configuration is visible to the west.  The main buildings
and main antenna array are at the south end.  The main underground entrance
is visible to the north.  Two lighter colored gray diamond shapes are
visible on the prepared surface. Most straight surfaces are angled away from
the antennas.

There appear to be numerous openings to the underground visible in the
photos. There is a sliding door arrangement at the north end, just above
where the road leads underground.  Just a few yards to the north is a dark
colored square that appears to open like the petals of a flower.

Signs at the perimeter fence read:  "TRESPASSING-LOITERING FORBIDDEN BY LAW.
TRESPASSERS ARE SUBJECT TO PROSECUTION.  PRIVATE PROPERTY-NO TRESPASS.
LOCKHEED CORP."

When I flew over the area, an elliptically-shaped object was mounted on top
of the northern pylon and was slowly rotating.  I estimate the height of the
pylon to be at least 100 feet.  The elliptical object is at about 30 feet
long.  The object is similar in shape to half an almond, flat on the bottom,
pointed at both ends, with a curved flange running along each side.  What it
is I can't be sure, but it is my guess that it is a full-sized "something"
rather than a component of something else.

On a different day, Bill Hamilton and I observed the Lockheed Hellendale
facility from the road just west of the perimeter fence. As we watched, two
large doors opened up and a pylon with elliptical object attached rose up out
of the ground.  The large doors are still open in the photos and video.
This object could be the same as the one seen from the air, but since it was only
seen from one side, it is not known for certain if it was actually disk-
shaped, but it is possible.  In August, I was in the Los Angeles area and
met with Gary Schultz and Norio Hayakawa.  They reported that on a recent
visit to the same area, they saw a definite disk-shaped object on the pylon.

So what does all this mean?  It means that for the first time, we have
verifiable evidence of high-technology aircraft being designed or built by
U.S. aerospace corporations at secret underground installations. These
aircraft do not depend on aerodynamic lift from wings, propellers, jet
thrust, etc.

Does this mean that all UFOs/flying saucers are really American
high-tech aircraft that have been kept secret all these years?  Are aliens
from other planets just a convenient cover story?  Not on your life!
Unexplained craft have been seen for thousands of years.  Are these craft
made by "us," "them," or some combination?  Who knows?  Perhaps it is true
that we have discovered how to build aircraft similar to "alien" flying
saucers, but did we have help from someone else?  What, if anything did we
trade for this help?  Who oversees these "Deep Black" programs?  How much
do they cost?  And most importantly, what is the purpose?  We do not yet
have the answers.

At any rate, the test programs are becoming bolder and more intense.


Copyright 1992 - The Houston UFO Network
All rights reserved.

** End of file **


--
<*> Don Allen <*>             1:363/81.1 - Fidonet #1 - Homebody BBS
[e-mail] - Internet   1:363/29.8 - Fidonet #2 - Gourmet Delight
88:4205/1.1  - MUFON Network  1:3607/20.2  -- Odyssey - Alabama UFO Net
NSA grep food: Aviary, Ed Dames, Los Alamos - Majestic - Jason - RIIA - UN
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:11873 alt.religion.kibology:5261
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!destroyer!cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!kakwa.ucs.ualberta.ca!ersys!wowee!kellym
From: [e-mail] (Kelly Martin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Trip on Space Ship 3.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Dec 92 06:21:51 MST
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: world
Organization: Not an Organization
X-NewsSoftware: GRn 1.16f (10.17.92) by Mike Schwartz & Michael B. Smith
Lines: 115

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Eric Boesch) writes:
> [e-mail] (frost...) writes:
> >======================================================================
> >Actually, you can pick up alien transmissions on your am radio but it
> >is quite well known where they are coming from. The signals also sound
> >like waves washing onto a beach, sort of smooth and rhythmic. These
> >signals come from the planet Jupiter when it is in the sky. Whether day
> >or night the planet has to be in the sky above you so that the earth
> >doesn't block out the signals. I don't remember the exact frequency but
> >it is about a third of the way up the am band as I recall. Since Jupiter
> >is close to a protostar in development and puts out more energy than it
> >receives your radio is acting like a tiny radio-telescope when it picks
> >it up.
> >======================================================================
>
> This is not good science.  Noise travels with great difficulty in thin
> air, and interstellar space is an almost perfect vacuum, so radio
> waves are almost immobile in space.  A radio wave in a perfect vacuum

This is not good science either.
Radio waves themselves are not "noise" unless you are a radio.

> does not move at all; that is what is called a "stationary wave".  For
> a less extreme example, the first men on the moon heard a radio
> programme that researchers discovered had been last broadcast in 1925!

Oh, that's right.  The moon is so very far away from the earth, the
relative distance must have distorted space and time.

> The further away from Earth you go, the farther back in time you go.

I'm sure some people believed you.  How about, the closer you get to
travelling ~90%+ the speed of light, the faster you "travel" forward
in time, relative to people on earth.

> Followers of Einstein proved this by an experiment where they kept
> very accurate clocks at the top and at the bottom of a very tall
> building, and because of the differing distances of the clocks from
> the Earth's center, the clocks lost synchronization.  As an extreme

What type of clocks were they, and how were they in sync?  A tall building?
Did the researchers also yell to each other to compare the two readings?

> case of this phenomenon, the light traveling from distant galaxies far
> away may be billions of years old!

You're trying to tell me that the Earth is the center of the universe, that
time is relative to its core? Hmm..

So your idea is that the light arrived _instantaneously_, and that its
relative distance from the earth is the only reason it "aged?"

You have posted a very bad joke.  Feel free to poke fun at people, but
once in a while you should prove that you actually know *something*,
like even the basics of relativity. I'm having my doubts that you do.
Your sarcasm could have been more convincing -- please enlighten me.

> So the Jupiter protostar theory sounds good on the surface but is not
> valid.  On the other hand, it is a mathematical fact that the hiss of
> an evil machine intelligence subliminally subverting your will over
> the radio or telephone is REMARKABLY like the noise made by a
> protostar.  Because I am not a conspiracy theorist, I will allow you
> to make your own decision which is the more likely explanation.

A mathematical fact about an evil machine intelligence?
In that case, it is likely more intelligent than you, too.

> (Aside: you will note that these laws of physics imply that the center
> of the Earth is actually ALREADY IN THE FUTURE relative to us
> surface-dwellers.  This does not necessarily imply that there is an
> advanced civilization down there, or "up there" as one who lives in
> the center of the Earth might call it, but it does suggest that such
> theories may have more validity than conventional scientists believe.)

Can you name all the laws of physics, and how I will be tried if I break
them?  And give me some solid facts, too.  Facts like how aliens could
not POSSIBLY exist, because you're just not sure about it.  Tell me about
"your" laws of physics, how certain things are possible, and others are
not.  Tell me how you decide, on what you base your decision, on whom you
have learned your ideas from.  Tell me why some things will never be
possible, tell me why you'd never believe them anyway.  Tell me why life
could never exist beyond how you know it, and tell me why we must be the
most advanced race in the universe. Tell me why aliens can't exist.

> Always willing to help,

Always?  Help me out.  Come on, I know you can.

Oh, you can probably help someone close his mind to anything and
everything he doesn't understand.  I once thought that scientists were
open to new ideas and new possibilities, but it seems I am very wrong.
Only a very select few, those who've taken us just a step further, can
claim that title.  So very sad.  In that respect, I doubt you'll
ever achieve anything of novell importance, and it's so obvious why.
You have a great imagination, though, so why don't you use it
constructively? It could take you far!

Yeah, I can take a joke, but why does it always have to be in
alt.alien.visitors?  I'll give you 10 zorkmids to take it elsewhere.

> Eric Boesch
> PhD in Paraastronomy, 1987
> Universitat Verbelligten, Bundesrepublik Deutschland
> Hohenschreibersputnikfunksignalstrasse
                ^^^^^^^    ^^^^^^
You must think sputnik is a potato too, right?

  Hohenschreibabcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz
  As always, flames >nil:

  Perhaps you don't  like   my soup.
--
%"Vhuuut, you donna' like'a my zooop?"-Fred Flintstone, impersonating a chef
% kellY Martin  UUCP:[e-mail]  (1:342/53.5@fidonet)

Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!destroyer!cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!kakwa.ucs.ualberta.ca!ersys!wowee!kellym
From: [e-mail] (Kelly Martin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: About John Winston and others ...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Dec 92 03:28:25 MST
References: <pershing.723448895@teal> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: world
Organization: Not an Organization
X-NewsSoftware: GRn 1.16f (10.17.92) by Mike Schwartz & Michael B. Smith
Lines: 25

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (<[e-mail]>) writes:
> I have quite a list from my moderated group that I am running. Possibly
> you would be interested in joining the group? Its kind of slow right now
> but not dead, I don't think.
>
> Gregg.

What sort of group do you mean?  Is it more of an Internet mailing list?
Please send me more information.  It's too bad we can't have a serious
discussion here.

The signal/noise ratio here seems to be getting worse...  To that end,
I think certain people are achieving their objectives, unfortunately.
John Winston doesn't bother me at all, it's all those other "hoot'n'holler"
people.  So many of them, all with the same responses.

> --
>         Gregg Brown: Serious about UFO Sighting and Abduction Research
>     812-442-5354 (Voice)(24 hours/7 days) or e-mail me at [e-mail]
>                All information will be strictly confidential.

--
%"Vhuuut, you donna' like'a my zooop?"-Fred Flintstone, impersonating a chef
% kellY Martin  UUCP:[e-mail]  (1:342/53.5@fidonet)

Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13240 alt.alien.visitors:11875 alt.religion.kibology:5264
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!wupost!waikato.ac.nz!comp.vuw.ac.nz!newshost.wcc.govt.nz!kosmos.wcc.govt.nz!quirke_a
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
From: [e-mail]
Date: 14 Dec 92 14:39:49 NZST
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: world
Organization: Welligton City Council, Public Access.
Summary: Ignore this if you have a low sanity threshold
NNTP-Posting-Host: kosmos.wcc.govt.nz
Lines: 18


> Dear God-fearing people: I believe that all of these space people that
> Mr Winston and others talk about are not actual biological organisms like
> humans but either Demons or Angels. Read the Bible sometime: in Genesis
> you will find no mention of God creating humanoids, or, in fact, any other
> life, on any othe planet besides Earth.

   My Gosh, he's right !!
   What's more, a quick check of the Bible reveals absolutely *NO* mention
of God creating computers, electricity in wires, or Twinkies !
   As such, anyone using any of the above items (Yeah, that means *YOU*) is
commiting a mortal sin, and will burn in heck forever, or at least as long
as "I love Lucy" is rerun, which is pretty close.
   Oh, and has anyone noted the similarity between "Kibo" and "Antichrist"
when rot13ed from the original yiddish translation of sanscrit ? Makes you
wonder, doesn't it ?

Tony Q.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!yale.edu!spool.mu.edu!umn.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!payner
From: [e-mail] (Rich Payne)
Subject: Re: Contact Notes
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 03:07:05 GMT
Lines: 52

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeff) writes:

[...---...]

>Well, I'll tell you a little story...
>
>There was this fairly bright 14 year old that found Jr. High school pretty boring, but he didn't really enjoy math, so that put him in an independant study
>class, and he studied what ever he wanted to, so he specialized in UFO's and
>sociology, before becoming interested in music a few years later.
>
>And he read every book there was on UFO's (in 1975) and wrote papers and gave
>presentations to the entire school on what he was studing. This interest
>has survived for him for the past 15 years. And he has read about 100 books
>on the subject, as well as found many other sources and befriended several
>prominent researchers.
>
>And then he met JW, and realized that the more you know, the wierder you get,

I do not think this is an accurate generalization.

>because your mind becomes expanded into a more open state that can comprehend
>a very complex puzzle that centers around spirituality. JW has probably read
>several hundred books on this subject.

So then he is aware of the opinions others. There is a difference between
getting older and getting wiser, and most (IMHO) do one without the other.
John is not showing his personal knowledge or experiences by reposting
articles from the WWN and Enquirer.

>And then he read JV, and realized that the guy just doesn't get it. And he
>wondered if there was a reason for this, outside of just being a myopic
>individual. Is there a hidden agenda there?

Luke, beware the dark side of the conspiracy theorist...

>You be the judge. But for me, the guy ain't even close. He has no appreciation
>for sociological insight that sez "if thousands of people tell the same tail,
>hard evidence or no, there is something very serious going on that is
>most likely just exactly what they think it is". (Abduction)

Maybe so, maybe not. For how many years was it not common knowledge that
the sun revolves around the earth? Just ask anybody, or better yet, step
outside and watch the sun rise and set.

>Jeff-


Rich

[e-mail]


Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!linac!newsaintmail
From: [e-mail] (James T. McKinley)
Subject: Archives of UFO journals (or SIGs) available via anonymous FTP?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-a4
Sender: [e-mail] (The Background Man)
Nntp-Posting-Host: d0msu2.fnal.gov
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
Distribution:  world
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 06:45:31 GMT
Lines: 19

Hi,
    I was wondering if anyone who reads this newsgroup knew of any UFO journal
archives available via anonymous FTP or otherwise over the net?  Or perhaps
archives of selected postings to this newsgroup (or others) along the lines of
the November 1992 HUFON REPORT posted Sunday, 13 December, 19:41:42 GMT?  I
would also be interested in learning of other newsgroups or list servers on
this subject.  Thanks in advance for any help :-).

                                                        Jim

********************************************************************************
James T. McKinley                   -      Michigan State University
Internet: [e-mail]         -      High Energy Physics Group
HEPnet:   FNAL::MCKINLEY            -      D0 Experiment (E740)
          MSUHEP::MCKINLEY          -      Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
           "The universe is left as an exercise for the student."
********************************************************************************
 Opinions expressed are solely mine and in no way reflect those of my employer.
********************************************************************************
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13241 alt.alien.visitors:11878 alt.religion.kibology:5271
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!usc!enterpoop.mit.edu!world!kibo
From: [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry)
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Two rooms filled with typography, in downtown Boston
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 06:56:38 GMT
Lines: 9

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>   Oh, and has anyone noted the similarity between "Kibo" and "Antichrist"
>when rot13ed from the original yiddish translation of sanscrit ? Makes you
>wonder, doesn't it ?

Oh, you finally noticed the rot13 Tetragrammaton.

                                -- K.

Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13242 alt.alien.visitors:11879 sci.skeptic:35863 alt.religion.kibology:5273
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.religion.kibology
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!uunet!world!kibo
From: [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry)
Subject: Re: Prize
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Two rooms filled with typography, in downtown Boston
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 07:07:09 GMT
Lines: 20

[sci.skeptic, et al]
In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Dear Folks: I just got the prize in from Kibo. I'm overwhelmed
>with gratitude for the honor of excepting this great prize from
>his organization and followers. I believe it had to do with something
>I said about an INVISIBLE BABY.

This could be the first step on the way to that Emmy for your show!

>There was also something else in the
>package but I hesitate to ask what it was. The instructions were
>written in a foreign language.
>John Winston. It was probubly written is Solar Max or Solax Mal. I
>never can get those two straightened out.

If you taste it you'll find out.  Incidentally, if you mix it into
Play-Doh, you'll get Spam!

                            -- K.

Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!rutgers!noao!amethyst!organpipe.uug.arizona.edu!helium!corleyj
From: [e-mail] (Jason D Corley )
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Narrow-minds and Religion
Summary: Well...yeah, actually.  They didn't.  Every UFO incident was engineered
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Dec 92 05:58:21 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Arizona UNIX Users Group
Lines: 3


    Jason
    Not A Grey, But An Incredible Simulation
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13243 alt.alien.visitors:11881 sci.skeptic:35866
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!spool.mu.edu!uunet!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!eff!enterpoop.mit.edu!eru.mt.luth.se!lunic!sunic!seunet!lin.foa.se!eriks
From: [e-mail] (Erik Svensson FOA2)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: The Devil Drives a UFO.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Dec 92 10:12:19 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (System PRIVILEGED Account)
Organization: FOA, Linkoping, Sweden
Lines: 26
Nntp-Posting-Host: fenix.lin.foa.se

[e-mail] writes:

>Dear One and All: If I were looking for Denice I would look for her
>next week and the week after that.  I interviewed her twice. It has
>been reported to me by an atheist that I have offended God fearing
>people. If people want to believe that Devils and Demons drive UFOs
>that Ok with me. I have never seen it myself. But if you doubt it
>just get on the Hollywood Freeway during rush hour.
>John Winston. I figure God has a sense of humor. He made us didn't he-
>she?

You know, John's writings is the net equivalent of an out-of-body experience.

cheers

(now, where did my body go while I wrote this?)


--
Erik Svensson            Research Officer
Guided Weapons Division        National Defense Research Establishment (FOA)
Stockholm            Sweden

net.address:     [e-mail]

"Another casualty of applied meta-physics!" -- Hobbes
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!mcsun!sunic!ugle.unit.no!alf.uib.no!ii.uib.no!bjornts
From: [e-mail] (Bjoern Tore Sund)
Subject: Re: Heads Island
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Bergen University Newsaccount)
Organization: Dept. of Informatics, University of Bergen
References:  <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 92 12:04:08 GMT
Lines: 16

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (frost...) writes:
|> With all the talk about thee pyramids and such being bandied about by
|> some of the people on the Net I am very surprized taht nobody has pos-
|> tulated that the large and heavy stone heads on Easter Island were
|> built by aliens.
|>                         Jim

Not only has that been postulated several times, by several different people,
I've also seen postulations that the heads actually _was_ the bodies of aliens...
I do hope nobody takes this seriously though...?

--
    ___   ___
__  |__)   |    Bjoern Tore Sund (BT)   Quote: "Nothing!"
    |__)   |    [e-mail]              - Marvin

Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!spool.mu.edu!hri.com!enterpoop.mit.edu!eru.mt.luth.se!lunic!sunic!ugle.unit.no!alf.uib.no!ii.uib.no!bjornts
From: [e-mail] (Bjoern Tore Sund)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Dec 92 12:38:05 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Bergen University Newsaccount)
Organization: Dept. of Informatics, University of Bergen
Lines: 12

Dear John_-_Winston, there seems to be a lot of people that do not realize the
greatness of your immesureable madness. Please forgive them, for they do not
know what they are doing.

Keep posting the stories of your lives, but try to make them shorter, as I find
it difficult to concentrate on long texts of such complexity and difficult
topics.

--
    ___   ___
__  |__)   |    Bjoern Tore Sund (BT)   Quote: "Nothing!"
    |__)   |    [e-mail]              - Marvin
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!spool.mu.edu!yale.edu!ira.uka.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!uni-heidelberg!aix320a.urz.uni-heidelberg.de!y41
From: [e-mail] (Jeffrey Hazelwood)
Subject: Strange Tidbits
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (NetNews)
Organization: University of Heidelberg, Germany
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 92 13:05:06 GMT
Lines: 24


First of all, alien freaks don't get pissed because this is posted here!

Now, does anyone have any info on the dude in Florida that built his entire
house out of Coral. It had huge blocks and a revolving 2 ton block door.  The
cat claimed to have figured out the "secret" of gravity and all kinds of other
stuff.  Anyone in the know?


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey T. Hazelwood                    UniversitΣt Heidelberg
EMAIL: [e-mail]       Heidelberg, Germany

                                     *

                                   /////    /////         //
                                  /     /    //////      /  /
                                  /     /    //////     /    /
                          /        /   /      ////           //
                          //////////////////////////////////////
                         /
           /           //                                  *
           /////////////
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:11885 alt.conspiracy:20852 sci.skeptic:35870
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!sun-barr!olivea!uunet!mcsun!news.funet.fi!ousrvr.oulu.fi!phoenix!larzo
From: [e-mail] (Lauri Moilanen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: FILE: HUFON report on Underground Base in Calif
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Dec 92 08:35:33 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Oulu, Finland
Lines: 15
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

:
: This copyrighted article originally appeared in the November 1992
: HUFON REPORT, the newsletter of the Houston UFO Network, Inc. For more
: information call [phone].
:
: See accompanying GIF file, UGBASES.GIF
: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: [ Not included here - Don ]
:
    Why not? I'm sure that i'm not only one, who are curious to see it.

*******************************************************************************
               Lauri Moilanen         |
          [e-mail]  |
******************************************************************************
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13244 alt.alien.visitors:11886 sci.skeptic:35872
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!uunet!das.wang.com!wang!news
From: [e-mail] (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 11:30:41 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: talk.religion.newage
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 14

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

>The person who calls himself Satan
>lives in the UK and if I get his permission I'll put his E-mail address
>on the Net so you people can converse with him.

Wasn't there someone with a login of SATAN at MIT in the late 70's?  I
had a guest account there which I accessed via NYU, this user seemed
always to be logged in.
--
/|/-\/-\       I'll leave you with this saying:
 |__/__/_/     Not SENSUOUS... only ``FROLICSOME''... and in need of DENTAL
 |warren@      WORK... in PAIN!!!
/ nysernet.org
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13245 alt.alien.visitors:11887 sci.skeptic:35873
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Tunnels. Part 2.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 92 06:57:16 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 67

Subject: Tunnels. Part 2.
  Many years ago I read a pamplet put out by the Borderline
Research Group called Rainbow City. It talked about a
group of people finding a city near the South Pole that was
  millions of years old. They also found a train, tunnel
and supply tunnels even extended to parts of Atlantis and
Lemuria which are now under water.  It mentioned that one
of these tunnels could be seen near Sheridan, Wyoming
where the tunnel had been broken off during the formation
of the mountains in the area.  The tunnel was said to be just
sticking out the side of the hill. This was also very close to
the medicine whell  in the Sheep Mountains of Wyoming. I had
made and trip into the area in search of the tunnel and had
told my wife that we might drop by and look for the medi=
cine wheel also and that she would have to wait in the car
while I walked across the fence and walked up the mountain
to see the medicine wheel. She then informed me that there
would probubly be a road up there but I told her that couldn't
be because I was told there was no road.
   My wife then started to getting sick a little bit so I stopped
looking for the tunnel and went over to the medicine wheel
area and there was a road  because a large radar instillation
and been put on the mountain. I took a look at the stones that
made up the area and felt that the center stone of the wheel
was not the original stone that was used. I also looked around
the area and thought that I could see buildings and structures
that were there thousands of years ago but were not there now.
My wife then got really sick and said, "You can either take me
home now or I'm going to a hospital."  It made me mad but we
left the area.  While we were in a resturant I was gripping
about the fact that we had to leave and she said, "Just go over
and talk to the person at the next table and she will probubly
know all about it."  I said a few words to show her that I didn't
believe what she was talking about but went over and struck up
a conversation with the lady on the next table.
  It turned out that the lady had made a life long investigation
in the medicine wheel. She had been to more than one of them
that are part of a system made by ancient people. One of the
places in about 20 to 40 miles approximately away from the
main wheel near a place call Ten Sleep. It's called that because
it used to take ten days walking or by wagon to get from the
main wheel over to the wheel at Ten Sleep and I still can't be-
lieve that.  Don't ever call the medicine wheel the Indian
Medicine Wheel especially to an American Indian because
it was made by a race of people who were there before the
Indians came there. While I was talking with the person at
the table I told her what I thought about the center stone in
the wheel and she couldn't understand how I could know that
the stone that was in there now was not the one that was in
there originally. She said that the original stone was bluish
grey in color and has been removed and is now in a museum
somewhere. I wouldn't be surprise that if I had been in a
previous life and had helped make the wheel.
  After coming back I read an article in Fate Magazine about
a person who examined the wheel and found that it was a
system of stones and holes that were use to forecast eclipes
and other things just like Stone Henge.
  I also forund that this area is a place where the space people
who are responsible for guarding and watching over this part
of the world come together about every month and tune up
their instruments that check the earth magnetic fields, come
togetther to start their tour of duty.  This happens about once
a month and then a new crew comes in for the next shift.
  So who knows?
John Winston.

the
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:11888 alt.conspiracy:20854 sci.skeptic:35874
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!ogicse!flop.ENGR.ORST.EDU!gaia.ucs.orst.edu!umn.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!rkrouse
From: [e-mail] (Robert K. Rouse)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: FILE: HUFON report on Underground Base in Calif
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Dec 92 15:22:13 GMT
Article-I.D.: netcom.1992Dec14.152213.4990
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
Lines: 12


   Where is the picture UGBASES.GIF located?


--
============================================================
  "No creature that is intelligent and with the right
   values is an alien to me."
                        John Salter
============================================================
    Robert K. Rouse        [e-mail]
============================================================
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13246 alt.alien.visitors:11889 alt.religion.kibology:5281
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!uunet!charon.amdahl.com!amdahl!JUTS!duts!dfs30
From: [e-mail] (Denise Solis)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Dec 92 15:28:20 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Denise Solis)
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA
Lines: 20

>Dear God-fearing people: ..........stuff deleted to save bandwidth......
>are really demons in the guise of angels. DO NOT FALL DOWN AND WORSHIP
>THEM--no real angel would ask such a thing.


C'mon do you really expect anyone on this board to be humble enough to bow
down to anything? You're not listening. Besides you're not the first to
spread this paranoid religious crap. Read your Bible closley instead of
listening to someone elses interpetation.
There are several references to  "Others" mentioned in the scriptures.
I won't get into that here because it will just piss everybody off.
Send me email if interested. I have been studying the Bible over 26 years
and found much of interest concerning UFOs.
                                  Denise

--
=========================================================================
||%%%%||         Denise Solis -- [e-mail]       ||%%%%||
||%%%%||  Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty  ||%%%%||
=========================================================================
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!news.acns.nwu.edu!network.ucsd.edu!rutgers!noao!amethyst!organpipe.uug.arizona.edu!helium!corleyj
From: [e-mail] (Jason D Corley )
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: orientation of the group and dissinformation project Winston
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Dec 92 18:17:23 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Arizona, Tucson
Lines: 23

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Phil) writes:
>
>There is enough people on the net that would like to see this newsgroup
>with more serious, more objective postings, with subject closely related
>sightings, reports, experiences, facts on government continous close lips
>efforts, or doing published article reviews.

And enough people on the net that would gibbon water loki whammo frisbee
disk hard cock hammer nail polish silver gold gun bullet fire bang
kill file folder origami umbrella mushroom caterpillar hookah smoke
fire camp quail bush burn voice mail e frag Vietnam Saigon sally
linus lucy brown trunk tree leaf fall winter wonderland Alice
restaurant napkin wipe toilet flush red blood wound band-aid
heal kiss french chef bork bork bork.\

(Anyone who hasn't got my point about filling up groups with junk and
how enough people will do it anyway should go back and read it again.)

    Jason
    Our Reporter In The Dungeon Dimensions

PS ObAliens: If aliens are so advanced, how come they keep crashing their
ships?
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: CONTACT NOTES
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 92 08:05:43 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 5

Dear People: I have been sent a great deal of information about the
Pleiades from Kumar. This information originally came from Jeff P. and
Walter P. It's very deep and more than 400 K bytes of information. If
anyone would like it just let me know through E-mail.
John Winston.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: About John Winston and others ...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 92 08:28:48 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Dear Serious Investigators: Someone mentioned OOBE tapes. I would be
interested in where I can send for them.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13247 alt.alien.visitors:11893 sci.skeptic:35877
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!saimiri.primate.wisc.edu!ames!pacbell.com!charon.amdahl.com!amdahl!JUTS!Kevin.n
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Farewell
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Dec 92 16:39:21 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: AMC
Lines: 10


     Well friends,

     I think it's about time I should unsubscribe this news group due to the
contents of the posting lately.  None of them contained any information
relating to the subject of UFO.  There are too many irrelevant comments, jokes,
remarks, etc.  I know, I know!  You're saying "so what?  don't read them then".
Well, this is what I'm going to do.  (sign!!!!!!)  If you want to post jokes
or smart comments, why don't you do that on another news group?  Anyway, so
long, friends.
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:11894 alt.religion.kibology:5282
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!tellab5!jcj
From: [e-mail] (jcj)
Subject: Re^2: Trip on Space Ship 3.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News)
Nntp-Posting-Host: tellabh
Organization: Carl Pellonpaa Fan Club - South Chapter
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 14:59:47 GMT
Lines: 17

>>>>Actually, you can pick up alien transmissions on your am radio but it
>>>>is quite well known where they are coming from. The signals also sound
>>
>>>This is not good science.  Noise travels with great difficulty in thin
>>>air, and interstellar space is ...
>>
>Sh--!  This stuff is priceless!

Yes, it is, as a fine piece of humor.  It's a joke, son.  A joke!

>Maybe it's just 'cause it's a rainy Friday - but the astounding, fundamental
>ignorance of basic science and the world around us as shown here
>flabbergasts me.  Sadly, it seems a prime requirement for original
>posts on a.a.v.

Well, it's clear the Pleiadians really do understand Kibowaves.

Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13250 alt.alien.visitors:11895 sci.skeptic:35879
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!malgudi.oar.net!news.ysu.edu!cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu!34r33o7
Organization: Central Michigan University
Date: Monday, 14 Dec 1992 12:39:51 EST
From: Robert A Rawlinson <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Farewell
References: <[e-mail]>
 <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 5

I agree there is just too much crap on this board. I have to sort through
nearly 100 messages of crap to get one message with some meaning. So long.

Bob

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!news.service.uci.edu!ucivax!megatek!max
From: [e-mail] (Max Elliot)
Subject: Re: Contact Notes
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 17:56:39 GMT
Lines: 32

 ...
>
> Well, I'll tell you a little story...
>
> There was this fairly bright 14 year old that found Jr. High school pretty boring, but he didn't really enjoy math, so that put him in an independant study
 ...
> a very complex puzzle that centers around spirituality. JW has probably read
                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> several hundred books on this subject.
>
> And then he read JV, and realized that the guy just doesn't get it. And he
> wondered if there was a reason for this, outside of just being a myopic
> individual. Is there a hidden agenda there?
>
> You be the judge. But for me, the guy ain't even close. He has no appreciation
> for sociological insight that sez "if thousands of people tell the same tail,
> hard evidence or no, there is something very serious going on that is
> most likely just exactly what they think it is". (Abduction)
>
> Jeff-
>

  So, what does 'hard evidence' have to do with spirituality?  I know my
  soul transcends the physical because I *know* it. Not because I can prove
  it. BUT, abductions are something more physical.  They are something which
  happens here in this time/space continuum and can be measured physically.
  Or are you suggesting that aliens and abductions are a spiritual experience
  which can be percieved but is not physical, i.e. a 'vision'? Please elaborate.  if abductions are not physical, then we need not investigate anywhere but
  our local temple/church/ashram !

-Max

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!sdd.hp.com!spool.mu.edu!umn.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!jeffp
From: [e-mail] (Jeff)
Subject: Re: Contact Notes
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: BeHereNow
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 20:04:54 GMT
Lines: 51

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Max Elliot) writes:
> ...
>>
>> Well, I'll tell you a little story...
>>
>> There was this fairly bright 14 year old that found Jr. High school pretty boring, but he didn't really enjoy math, so that put him in an independant study
> ...
>> a very complex puzzle that centers around spirituality. JW has probably read
>                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> several hundred books on this subject.
>>
>> And then he read JV, and realized that the guy just doesn't get it. And he
>> wondered if there was a reason for this, outside of just being a myopic
>> individual. Is there a hidden agenda there?
>>
>> You be the judge. But for me, the guy ain't even close. He has no appreciation
>> for sociological insight that sez "if thousands of people tell the same tail,
>> hard evidence or no, there is something very serious going on that is
>> most likely just exactly what they think it is". (Abduction)
>>
>> Jeff-
>>
>
>  So, what does 'hard evidence' have to do with spirituality?  I know my
>  soul transcends the physical because I *know* it. Not because I can prove
>  it. BUT, abductions are something more physical.  They are something which
>  happens here in this time/space continuum and can be measured physically.
>  Or are you suggesting that aliens and abductions are a spiritual experience
>  which can be percieved but is not physical, i.e. a 'vision'? Please elaborate.  if abductions are not physical, then we need not investigate anywhere but
>  our local temple/church/ashram !
>

No, UFO's are most likely physical in most instances. But what we can't forget
is that ultimatley, UFO's lead us back to our most basic philisophical and
spiritual questions. So all data, all experiencial data must be analysed
and understood with that basic premis in mind. Most people don't look
at UFO's that way, and miss the larger picture.

It is highly likely that most ET visitors are here for our benefit. (IF
that is true) then we have to look at what they hope to accomplish for
us. And we may want to ID those races that do not share those benign
intentions...

But I believe that if you don't have these thoughts in mind as you
look into this subject, it is possible to completely misinterprete
the entire situation (ala, J. Vallee).

Jeff-



Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13251 alt.alien.visitors:11898 sci.skeptic:35886
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Flamers and Good People.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 92 12:24:44 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 8

Subject: Flamers and Good People.
  I am enjoying all of the comments from all of the people including Oz.
Scott, Gene, Warren, Jeff, Daniel and Erick. I feel that it would be fitting
to give Honorable Mention to Max. for his rendition of going to the
unmentionable place.
  I do declair Max if you don't watch out they are going to give you a ticket
for overacting.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13252 alt.alien.visitors:11899 sci.skeptic:35887
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Who Am I?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 92 12:28:05 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 19

Subject: The Winston Bible.
  Back in the 1880s there used to be what people called Religious Fiction. If
I was writing some of it this might be how if would go; As John was setting
beside the Salton Sea his friend Jeff P. was seated by him. John said unto
Jeff, "Who do people say that I the son of Homer am?"  Jeff then said unto
him, "Some say thou art an alien, some that thou art an employee of the
government and some say you are an employee of NASA. Then John said unto
Jeff, "Some have stated with great gusto that I am actually  a young girl
who is writing a document for her college and she wants to see what the
reaction of the public is to a person posting strange things to the Net. It
is also stated that they take count of the different reactions of the
people.  They also believe that I not only am a young lady but I have a
boyfriend who smokes Winstons.
  But I say unto you. Who do you say that I AM? And Jeff P. answered and said,
Thou art an old man."  Then John said unto Jeff. Blessed art thou Jeff bar
Roger (or who ever Jeff's father is) for flesh and blood hath revealed this
unto you because you have come over to my house before.
  So that is that folks.
John Winston.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!charon.amdahl.com!amdahl!JUTS!duts!dfs30
From: [e-mail] (Denise Solis)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: test
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Dec 92 20:15:13 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Denise Solis)
Distribution: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA
Lines: 8


   Sorry all but I needed to do this....

--
........--=={0}==--.........................--=={0}==--..............
--=={0}==--  * .   *. [e-mail]  *   .*  --=={0}==--.
 *   --=={0}==-- *  .   DENISE FAITH SOLIS     --=={0}==--*.*
--=={0}==--.....--=={0}==--..................*.............--=={0}==--
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:11901 alt.conspiracy:20869 sci.skeptic:35889
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!stanford.edu!nntp.Stanford.EDU!Leland!jyc
From: [e-mail] (Jon Corelis)
Subject: Re: FILE: HUFON report on Underground Base in Calif
Message-ID: <jyc.724366184@Leland>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: DSO, Stanford University
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Dec 92 20:49:44 GMT
Lines: 7

[e-mail] (Don Allen) writes:

>  There has been a great deal of new information about UFO activity in
>Southern California ...
>
   Though I'm not a UFO theorist, I somehow don't find the idea that
Southern California is full of space aliens surprising.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13253 alt.alien.visitors:11902 alt.religion.kibology:5290
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!tamsun.tamu.edu!tamuts!n029gg
From: [e-mail] (Adam Roach)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Date: 14 Dec 1992 22:07:30 GMT
Organization: Little piles, all around my room
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tamuts.tamu.edu
Keywords: eat more mousse

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Denise Solis) writes:
}C'mon do you really expect anyone on this board to be humble enough to bow
}down to anything? You're not listening. Besides you're not the first to
}spread this paranoid religious crap. Read your Bible closley instead of
}listening to someone elses interpetation.
}There are several references to  "Others" mentioned in the scriptures.
}I won't get into that here because it will just piss everybody off.
}Send me email if interested. I have been studying the Bible over 26 years
}and found much of interest concerning UFOs.
}                                  Denise

*plonk*
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:11903 alt.religion.kibology:5291
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!darwin.sura.net!spool.mu.edu!olivea!hal.com!decwrl!deccrl!news.crl.dec.com!dbased.nuo.dec.com!ryn.mro4.dec.com!est.enet.dec.com!randolph
From: [e-mail] (Tom Randolph)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Trip on Space Ship 3.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Dec 92 18:42:58 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 13


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Eric Boesch) writes...
>[e-mail] (frost...) writes:
>   *Winston waste deleted*
>This is not good science.
>Eric Boesch
>PhD in Paraastronomy, 1987
>Universitat Verbelligten, Bundesrepublik Deutschland
>Hohenschreibersputnikfunksignalstrasse

Neither is this. This post only marginally resembles reality. Radio waves
are staionary in a vacuum? How do they get here, then?
-Tom R.   [e-mail]
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!spool.mu.edu!olivea!decwrl!deccrl!news.crl.dec.com!dbased.nuo.dec.com!e2big.mko.dec.com!engage.pko.dec.com!verga.enet.dec.com!stanley
From: [e-mail] (My name is...)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Visualizing The Solar System
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Dec 92 19:40:25 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News Daemon)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 44


In article <stone.724089260@cwis>, [e-mail] (Travis Stone) writes...
>
>
>Recently, a person named "Pam" (or "pam" in little bitty letters,
>like e.e. cummings) said that the largest number he/she could
>imagine was 250,000---or something of that order.
>
>Another poster asked if anyone had tried to imagine the whole
>Universe, with it's mind-boggling immensity, and that got me
>to thinking about a mental picture I like to play with now and
>then which I'd like to share with you folk:
>
>Picture (preferably in color, and not necessarily to scale) the
>Solar System, just like a still photograph.
>
>Now, with the planets *not* spinning on their axes, picture them
>moving in slightly elliptical orbits about the Sun, all in the
>same plane.  Got it?  Good.
>
>Now, picture the planets moving in their slightly elliptical
>orbits about the Sun, with the orbital planes slightly tilted
>with respect to one another.
>
>Now, picture the planets moving in their slightly elliptical,
>noncoplanar orbits around the Sun, and add their spins about
>their own axes.
>
>Now, picture the spinning planets moving in their slightly elliptical,
>noncoplanar orbits around the Sun with their moons revolving
>about them.
>
>Finally, picture the spinning planets moving in their slightly
>elliptical noncoplanar orbits around the Sun, their moons whirling
>around them, and the planets precessing and nutating.
>
>Quite a sight, isn't it?
>
>T.R. Stone


I don't picture it in numbers either but in pictures like you do... but
you can't really 'see' it from the inside... you have to step outside
and look in to really appreciate it.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!spool.mu.edu!olivea!decwrl!deccrl!news.crl.dec.com!dbased.nuo.dec.com!e2big.mko.dec.com!engage.pko.dec.com!verga.enet.dec.com!stanley
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Visual perspective on U
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Dec 92 19:44:10 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News Daemon)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 17


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Robert Sutton) writes...
>[e-mail](Charles Mcgrew) 10 Dec 92 18:46:05 GMT  types--
>>Most people can visualize (in their imagination) about 6-10 objects
>>with full detail.
>

Really?  How do you know that?  I don't think that correct for everyone.

>Most people maybe but I wouldn't take Betts (atrocious pun alert) on
>that though.Don't know if it might be connected to the digit short term
>memory thing but some would have trouble to visualize 1 thing.
>On the ET front legend has it that 1 alone has visualized the entire
>Universe in full.
>

I'll bet that's probably true that some people can do that.
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:11906 alt.conspiracy:20874 sci.skeptic:35892
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!darwin.sura.net!jvnc.net!netnews.upenn.edu!grip.cis.upenn.edu!jmv
From: [e-mail] (Jean-Marc Vezien)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: FILE: HUFON report on Underground Base in Calif
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Dec 92 21:33:09 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: GRASP Lab
Lines: 10
Nntp-Posting-Host: grip.cis.upenn.edu

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Robert K. Rouse) writes:
>
>    Where is the picture UGBASES.GIF located?
>

They are securely held in Roswell, and so is Santa, BTW.
Try [e-mail]


JM.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!hpscit.sc.hp.com!cupnews0.cup.hp.com!news1.boi.hp.com!hp-pcd!hp-vcd!kevinc
From: kevinc@PROBLEM_WITH_INEWS_GATEWAY_FILE ()
Subject: Re: Ley Lines
Sender: [e-mail] (News user)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 22:28:10 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Hewlett-Packard VCD
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Lines: 41

[e-mail] wrote:
: ---very difficult for you to keep and apply that resonance of energy
: in the earth plane. So what they needed to do, was create a system of
: registration which are the Nasca Lines, and with anchoring this energy
: from another dimension so that they could build these triangular
: grids, and so that then they could build 144 of them, which then were
: moved over in Peru to Machu Picchu and then were assembled close to
: Machu Picchu at a place called {S.P. Ilente Tiambo} and they were
: assembled there, moved over to Machu Picchu and at Machu Picchu that energy
: was {moved on to them} and then the grids multiplied 144 X144 X144 until
: they surrounded the entire planet some 25,000 years ago. End Part 6. JW.
____________________

     HA! John, man I've seen some crap in my time, but youuuuu.

     Man, I want to party with you pal. But you and me,
     together,....forget it !!

     I must admit, there were a few times that I myself have
     contemplated clandestine humor at everyone elses expense.
     But then I got a grip on myself and decided it was a stupid
     thing to do. So John, buddy, get a grip. Trust me, all the
     negative mail from all the people who know your just fart'n
     around will simply overwhelm you....... nice touch though,
     and sometimes even entertaining. Ha, what a maroon.

Kc
  " So you say you met an alien who had a room at the Holliday Inn ?"

  " Well, it may have been a space ship made up to look like a room.....
    but I can't be sure Peter."

  " And is'nt that just the trouble with aliens ?  You just don't know.
    Sure, sometimes you meet a nice one, Starman - E.T., but most
    of the time they turn out to be just some big lizard. That's all the
    time we have for today. Tune in next week when we take a look at
    hair-less pets.......weird. So until then........................."




Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13254 sci.skeptic:35893 alt.alien.visitors:11908
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!sun-barr!ames!pacbell.com!rtech!ingres!kevinq
From: [e-mail] (Kevin Quinn)
Subject: Re: Tunnels #1.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Kevin Quinn)
Organization: Ask Computer Systems Inc., Ingres Division, Alameda CA 94501
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Dec 92 22:33:49 GMT
Lines: 15

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Subject: Tunnels.
[ silly tabloid nonsense deleted ]
>  So there you have it folks. Is it true? Is it false? Is it food for
>thought?
Sorry, John, but how about choice 4: pure unadulterated bullshit.

Have a merry!

kbq

--
Kevin Quinn                         | [e-mail]
                                    | {mtzinu,pacbell,ll-winken,sun}!ingres.com
My opinions are my own.  Should you think otherwise, think again.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!tracyj
From: [e-mail] (Jeffrey Allan Tracy)
Subject: Re: Possible kill file uses
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Nntp-Posting-Host: hall101.its.rpi.edu
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 22:45:54 GMT
Lines: 1


Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13256 alt.alien.visitors:11910
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!sdd.hp.com!spool.mu.edu!olivea!stratus!florida!lpb
From: [e-mail] (Len Bucuvalas)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Dec 92 23:41:57 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 42

ReL ETs <--> Demons etc .....

If one were to study the root definitions of the words found in
the Bible one would find that the word "angel" means "messanger"
and that the word "heaven" means "sky"....et cetera

One would also find that during the 120 year period called the
dark age of the church, that after the dark period ends
Christianity and Mithraism have been melded together.  Simply
check what is Biblical and what is actually practised in the
major denominations today such as the sunrise service or
easter.

To take the Bible at word-for-word face value is a silly and
maybe dangerous thing to do as it was never meant to be taken
that way...if it was, then why all the parables rather than a
straight out answer?

If YOU were to travel through time...then YOU TOO could be
either demon or angel..as you choose.

I can buy a laser pistol with portable baterry pack that
develops a pulsed beam temperature of approx 3-5 million degrees
Kelvin....I can be Apollo.

I can bring a forge back with me....I can be Vulcan.

I can take a power system back with me to power up a holography
system and time my death to the solar eclipse..et cetera...

Test the Bible for validity. Don't be a willing sheep to follow
the fundie wolves...what a fundumentalist will call a false
prophet!

By the way..I'm Christian too.

Len
--
*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*
The accountability of government has gone to the point where the very
use of the law is the instrument of illegality.
        -- Ralph Nader @ Harvard Law School, 1/15/92
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!sdd.hp.com!spool.mu.edu!olivea!stratus!florida!lpb
From: [e-mail] (Len Bucuvalas)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Of ETs and Classical Religion
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Dec 92 23:51:37 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Distribution: usa
Lines: 691

Lately there has been talk about ETs being demons and all that
rot.  I pose a question to you fundumentalists here: Could
Demons have been ETs? Could Satan, otherwise knonw as Satan a El
or En Lil or Lucifer...could this personage have been a
commnader in an advance squadron cme to this planet to do one
thing and wound up do somehting else, contrary to the commands
of his leader or superior? You decide. The following is a
description of a contiguous dream one man had over a period of
time on this nature of this very subject.

To Fundumentalist, I suggest you read up on the Sumerian
civilization as well as the Egyptian civilization. Then tie
those subjects into your reading on the evolution of
Christianity and do some comparitive religions study.

even your own Bible warns you to not take it literally.
============================================================

---------------------------------------------------------------------

    INTRODUCTION:

    I am submitting this  file after  a great deal  of soul-searching. I
    have at no time  considered myself to  be any  different than anyone
    else. When the events that are recounted below occurred, I seriously
    considered seeking professional  help.  Instead, I turned within and
    performed my own private introspection.  I discovered that I can now
    approach these incidents and accept  them  as  factual  and  go from
    there.  I do not expect anyone to believe or  to  even actually read
    this file.  But, I feel that is necessary to at least "go-public" as
    part of the healing process.

    GROUNDWORK:

    I am at this writing 38 years old. I am divorced and have custody of
    my  two teenaged  sons.  I  am  ex-Navy  and  work  in  the computer
    communications field.
    I am an amateur  writer and investigative  correspondent for several
    publications. Most specifically, I write for Firefighters.

    I am not one of "God's Green Berets"  in terms of religion. Nor am I
    involved  in  an New Age,  Wicca,  or any other "alternative" belief
    system.
    I like to consider myself  as just a "regular  guy".  At the time of
    the dreams, I had been separated from my wife and had just filed for
    divorce.  I was living at 130 Foothill Court in Morgan Hill CA. This
    is a bedroom community located 35  miles south of San Jose CA. I was
    deeply involved  in  research  on  a  book  that  I  was  writing on
    corelationships between the ZODIAC killings in  the Bay area  in the
    70's and the Green River Killer of Seattle of the 80's. I relate all
    of this information in that I feel that it is necessary that  I "set
    the  stage"  of  exactly  what  was  going  on  in  my  life  and my
    preoccupations of the time.

    THE DREAMS BEGIN:

    In late May of 1989, I was poring over a large amount of data that I
    had recently received regarding the Green River  Killer. My research
    assistant,  Laura Xenos,  and I had spent  the  better  part  of the
    evening  cataloging  the new data  and  correlating  it  to existing
    information.  My youngest son, Danial, was staying with my sister in
    Seattle for the summer vacation and my oldest son  Mike was visiting
    a girlfriend in San Jose.  At about mid-night,  Laura and  I decided
    that we were both exhausted and decided to knock off for  the night.
    I convinced Laura not to drive all the way back to San  Jose and she
    went to sleep on the couch in  my den.  I retired to my  bedroom and
    went to sleep.  However,  like all good parents, I kinda had one eye
    open to insure that Mike made it home OK.

    At precisely 3:15am I  awoke.  My bed was situated in  my bedroom in
    such a manner that when the bedroom door was open,  I could see down
    the hallway to my sons bedrooms. When I awoke, the hall light was on
    and there was a person  standing in door  of my bedroom.  As you are
    probably aware,  when you awaken from a deep sleep,  it is difficult
    to focus on bright lights.
    This being the case,  I shielded my eyes from the hall  light and in
    my best imitation  of a parent trying  to be hip I said  "  Yo dude,
    Isn't it a little late for you  to be getting in???".  The person(?)
    standing in the door said  in a calm and quiet voice  "Go  to sleep,
    You will  remember".  I recall  saying  something to  the  effect of
    "Yeah,  right" and I rolled over and went to sleep. At 5:00am I woke
    up,  sitting  up.  That is to say I became  aware that  I was  in my
    bedroom and that I was sitting up in bed.  I had no  recollection of
    sitting up, just that I was sitting there.

    Being of a hopeless parental mind,  I stormed into my sons  room and
    woke him up to chew him out for getting  in at 3:00am.  Mike told me
    he had arrived at 12:30  and watched the end of the Carson  show and
    went to sleep.  My son has never lied to me and this would  not have
    been a circumstance that he would feel that he had to lie to protect
    himself (he's bigger than me). Confused, I went in and woke up Laura
    and asked her if  she had come  to  my room the previous  night. She
    said that  she had been  asleep on the couch all night  and  had not
    risen until I woke her up.

    I was duly troubled by the events  of the previous evening.  For the
    rest of the day I had a nagging feeling that there  was something in
    my mind that was just out of reach. It is like when you are supposed
    to do something for someone but just can't remember exactly  what it
    was. There was a guilty feeling that I couldn't identify.

    Over the course of the day I dismissed the feelings and the thoughts
    that  had bothered  me that morning.  By the  end of the  day, I was
    ready  to  go  to  bed (the  first occurrence  happened  on a Friday
    night).  Mike had gone  off and was going to  spend the  night  at a
    friends house in San Jose and I was relishing the  thought of having
    the house empty and quiet to  myself.  I went to bed  at about 10:30
    and drifted off to sleep. At this point I am not sure if both of the
    below described dreams  occurred  on  the same  night or  if one had
    occurred the night  before  and  had  emerged  when  the  second one
    materialized. I do know that these dreams were in vivid color. I can
    CLEARLY remember that point.  I usually do not remember  the details
    of my dreams. But, in this case the details are clear and the colors
    are extremely clean and concise.

    DREAM 1, IN THE COUNCIL CHAMBERS

    I am in a large room.  It is not unlike the pictures I have  seen of
    the United  Nations General Assembly  Hall.  At one end is  a raised
    dais that has several people(?) seated at it. There is a lot of gold
    and silver in the clothing  that  the people around me  are wearing.
    The  floor is  a fine  pastel blue not quite robins  egg  but close.
    There is a heated argument taking place between a man  on  the floor
    and the people(?)  on the dais.  I cannot see his head or  face (the
    man on  the floor).  Where  his head  would be  is  a  helical light
    alternating  white and black (like a barbers  pole).  it  is turning
    counter-clockwise.  That  is if you were  facing him,  the helix was
    turning from my right to left.  It had the appearance  of "screwing"
    down into his shoulders.  He is wearing a "toga"  that is iridescent
    blue/black and flashes when  he  moves his arms.  I  cannot  see his
    hands as the arms of the toga cover them.  I am suddenly  aware of a
    presence to  my  left.  I  cannot  see who it  is.  A quiet voice is
    talking to me.  I am being told that  the little man  in the silvery
    blue/black  robe  is   "Lucifer",   ambassador   from   the  Satanas
    Federation. He is declaring the rights of the Satanas to do what the
    please. The Council is advising him that the "experiments" must end.
    If the  Satanas Federation does not obey  the "Doctrine"  then there
    will be war.
    At this point I remember  straining to  hear what the  voices. There
    were no voices. It was more a lot of high pitched whines and growls.
    It  sounded a lot like  a beginning violin  player  combined  with a
    beginning clarinet player.  When I asked what the "doctrine" was, my
    off-stage dis-embodied voice told me that it  was that  no one could
    interfere with another culture.

    Fade to black.......

    DREAM 2, The 21

    I am in a place without definition.  there is a  pinkish blur around
    me.  It can be  likened to  what a  movie-maker would use to  have a
    dream-sequence in a movie.  In front of me is  a group of  people. I
    count 21  people standing in a  "triangular"  or a delta grouping in
    front  of  me.  At the point or apex facing  me is a  smallish woman
    about 5  feet tall.  She has black hair (raven black) it is straight
    and  severely cut  straight and even with  her shoulders.  She has a
    pale white complexion. Her eyes are striking. They are crystal clear
    and  the  bluest  blue  that  I  have  ever  seen.  They  are almost
    luminescent.  Her lips  are vivid red.  I am  sure that there  is no
    make-up on her face.  Around her are the other 20  people.  They are
    all dressed in pale blue robes bound at the waist with  a white rope
    or cord.  I cannot see their feet.  From my  left,  a voice tells me
    "This is  your  people"  "You are the protector".  I remember saying
    "Yeah,  right,  I am a protector,  I am overweight, wear glasses and
    can barely defend myself".  The voice didn't miss a beat,  "You will
    be changed". I can remember being both confused and curious. I asked
    the voice "  What am I supposed to do?, Who are these people?, Where
    are we to go? (I just knew we were going to go somewhere)"
    The voice replied "You will meet them when  it is time,  You will be
    the protector,  You will go over the river, past the mountain to the
    valley"

    I was getting a little  agitated  at  this point.  "Am I supposed to
    lead these people like Moses or something?"  The voice answered that
    "She is the leader,  you are the protector". "to show that you are a
    protector, we are placing the mark of the protector on your vibronic
    (sic?)  aura to show others that you are a protector". At this point
    I  am suddenly holding a white ceramic molding  that  looks  kind of
    like a heart with one side gone.  Not a human heart mind  you, but a
    "romantic"   heart.  The  voice  says  "This  is  the  mark  of  the
    protector". "You will know from your memories when it is time to go"
    Again I was confused "What memories?"  The voice then  told me about
    Bio-Chemical memories that are implanted in the DNA structure of the
    receiver and can be activated at will.  I didn't understand  what he
    was telling me and I really cant even begin to recount it but I knew
    that I didn't understand it and that try as  I might to  absorb what
    he was saying I couldn't grasp it all.  There was a great deal about
    Cerebrum synapses and the bio-chemical programming being superior to
    crystal implants.  I am not a doctor or a clinical type so it didn't
    mean a great deal to me.  I remember the dream most vividly, but the
    clinical details of this  portion of the  "conversation" remain just
    out of reach so to speak in my mind.


    Fade to black.....

    THE NEXT DAY, AND A VISIT TO THE SUPERNATURAL.

    When  I awoke on  Sunday  Morning,  I was disturbed.  I had full and
    complete remembrance of these dreams at  this point.  Not only did I
    remember  each detail most  fully,  the dreams had been in  color. I
    could not ever remember  ever having a dream in  color.  The face of
    the black haired  woman was vivid in  my  mind.  I thought about the
    dreams all day.  I worked on my manuscript through most  of the day.
    When I went to bed Sunday evening,  I was still thinking  about her.
    That night I had the same dream(s) again. Now I don't know if it was
    induced by me re-living the experience in my mind of my own volition
    or if there was an outside influence.  Regardless,  I had the dreams
    again.  I continued to  have  the dreams  for several nights.  I was
    getting paranoid and scared. By Friday, I was afraid to go to sleep.
    I had been  awake for about  36  hours.  At  this  time  I  had been
    "dating"  a woman who was active in the more esoteric aspects of new
    age. I was aware of her beliefs but we never talked about it. I told
    her that I was not going out Friday night  with her,  and I told her
    that  I was disturbed by  some  dreams  that I kept having.  At this
    point,  I  had told  NO-ONE  about these dreams.  I  was afraid that
    people would think that I had gone "around the bend".
    Linda  convinced me to talk  to an acquaintance  of hers that  was a
    "channeler". I had no bloody idea what a "channeler" was or what the
    did.
    I agreed to see  the channeler.  That night I visited  a woman named
    Amaya.  I was nervous  about  all  of  it  partially  because  I was
    exhausted and partially I didn't know  what to expect.  Amaya was an
    older woman.  she was smallish and very delicate looking.  She had a
    soft quiet voice and was extremely polite.  She offered me a  cup of
    herb tea and  told me to  relax.  I told her that I had  been having
    some dreams  that  were disturbing me  and that Linda  had said that
    maybe  she   could  help.   At  this  point  she   looked  extremely
    uncomfortable and asked if she could invite  another person  to join
    us.  I  didn't know what  to think.  I said sure,  no problem. I was
    uneasy though.  I didn't know if this was satanic or if  we going to
    cut a calf or what.  In a few minutes a man named Roger came  to the
    house.  Amaya then explained that she had invited Roger over because
    while she was talking to  me she  was being overtaken by  a powerful
    force, more powerful than anything that she has ever encountered and
    she wanted Roger to be  there in case he  was needed.  Amaya told me
    that there was someone who wanted  to talk to  me most emphatically,
    she said that it was  as if her body  were being  wholly attacked by
    sandpaper.  She said all of her nerve endings were being stimulated.
    She looked frightened.  Roger asked if she wanted to go through with
    it.  She said she didn't know.  At this point, I didn't know what to
    think.  I felt that I could be in the middle of a con job or a gypsy
    scam or whatever.  Again it is important for me to relate that I had
    still not told ANYONE about the content of  the dreams.  Roger got a
    tape recorder and set it up and told me  that I could  have a record
    of the events.  I was becoming convinced that it was a con-job. Then
    the  most  incredible thing that I have  ever  witnessed took place.
    Amaya was sitting across the table from me in her kitchen,  the tape
    recorder was on the table between us.  Roger was sitting to my left.
    All of Amayas facial features began to change. I don't mean that she
    distorted her face, I mean they CHANGED!. Her long thin face changed
    to a more round face,  her cheeks puffed out as if  she had suddenly
    gained 20 pounds. Her complexion darkened almost to that of a Latino
    or Arab.  Her eyes took on  a almond  shape and drew  back not quite
    into an oriental look. When she opened her eyes, they were no longer
    blue,  they were black!  That is there  was no color  just two black
    holes in the white.
    When she spoke,  gone was the soft quiet voice.  What came out was a
    loud booming voice. It had a distinct accent that was kind of like a
    Jamaican but more Spanish.

    What follows is a direct transcript of the tape that was made:

    You are indeed a protector.
    You were chosen many lifetimes ago
    You have been trained for this duty throughout your lifetimes
    You volunteered for this.
    You will be changed for this duty.
    You have been given memories  that  will be activated when  you need
    them.
    We  have  done  this  because  your  technical-analytical  mind will
    question
       these memories and you will not accept them.
    You can quit this duty whenever you decide.
    You have a free-will
    Your Vibronic (sic?) aura bears your mark
    (ROGER> "Let me see if I can detect it"
    --Roger begins to run his hands around me not unlike a  mime doing a
    'wall'   routine.
    (ROGER> "There is something here"
    It is as I have told you, you bear the mark of the protector.
    (ROGER> "Here is what is there"
    --Roger hands me a piece of paper that has a pencil  drawing that is
    EXACTLY    the same as the white ceramic molding that I had  held in
    the dream.
    The girl is the leader. You are the protector.
    The dreams are real.
    You do not have to fear them.
    They will end tonight.
    There will be more dreams when you need them.
    Do you wish to be a protector?
    (ME> "Yes"
    Do you have any questions?
    (ME> "Yes, Many of them"
    You may ask.
    (ME> "Are there more than the people I saw?"
    There are other groups.
    Each 21 has its own protector.
    This 21 is for you.
    (ME> "The girl with the black hair is the leader?"
    She is  the leader  but she does  not  lead  the  way  that  you are
    thinking.
    She will be an example for the others.
    They will follow out of their own free-will.
    (ME> "How do I find them?"
    When it is time, They will find you.
    They will know you by your mark.
    You will know them by the mark.
    (ME> "What mark do they have?"
    When it is time, you will know.
    (ME> "Why is this happening now?"
    You are being awakened to allow time for you to be prepared  for the
    duty.
    Other protectors are being awakened now to prepare them.
    The time is approaching for you to begin your duty.
    When the world declares war on the South, it is time.
    (ME> "What does that mean?"
    You will understand in time.
    (ME> "Who are they?"
    They are the minds and the experiences of your race.
    (ME> "What about my family?"
    There will be more than just the 21.
    You will have many people in your care.
    The 21 are the core.
    You are the protector.
    (ME> "Does that mean that my family, my sons, will be with me?"
    Yes.
    (ME> "Are you from the future?"
    The future is like a river.
    It goes in a direction.
    There is no way of telling if there are eddies and backcurrents.
    If you place a piece of wood in  the water and track  its movements,
    then place a second piece of wood in the same spot in the water, the
    current will  never take  the same  route.  To ask if I am  from the
    it be said that I am from A future.
    (ME> "When you say that I was trained many lifetimes ago what do you
    mean?"
    You were a warrior.
    You fought many battles.
    You died many times.
    You volunteered when you were what you call a Comanchero.
    (ME> "What is that?"
    Your people call them Indians.
    They were the last pure spirits of your race.
    We spoke to them.
    We were what they called the Bird Tribes.
    --There is a period of quiet
    Do you have any other questions?
    (ME> "I know there are but I can't think of any."
    There is a malevolence, an evil as your race perceives it.
    It is dominating your plane.
    We cannot interfere.
    You must defend yourselves.
    We go now

                   NOTE
    The tape was made during the session.
    This has been validated by  three separate persons.

    Amaya at this point seemed to deflate.  Her face changed back to its
    original configuration. She was panting and covered with sweat.
    I was both relieved and quite scared. I didn't know what to think.
    After she had recovered,  Amaya asked if  she  could  listen  to the
    tape.  I asked her if  she didn't  remember what was said.  She said
    that she had been in a "pink place"  while we had spoken.  She asked
    me the name of who I had talked to.  I had not asked.  She said that
    she didn't  know who it was wither,  but,  she said that  it was the
    most powerful  experience that she had ever  had.  I asked her  if I
    owed her anything.  She said that she usually asked  for  $75.00 for
    the services.  (This immediately fortified my belief that this was a
    scam) She said that she couldn't accept anything this time.
    I tried to force the money on  her.  (I  think that I  was trying to
    justify my own beliefs that this  was a scam).  As I  was leaving, I
    left $50.00  in a candy dish by  her door.  I felt better  for it. I
    went out to my car and took off for home.  I got about  3 miles from
    home and reached into my shirt pocket for my gas credit card, I came
    out with the 2 twenties and the ten that I "thought" that I had left
    in the candy dish. (Scary thoughts went through my head).

    That night I slept the sleep of the wicked. I had no dreams and woke
    up Saturday morning feeling refreshed and better than I have felt in
    years.


    DREAM 3, THE CHURCH OF DISBELIEF

    There were  no  dreams  for several months.  My son Mike  helped his
    girlfriends  family  to move up  to Spokane in Washington  state and
    decided to  spend the summer  up  there.  Laura and  I  continued to
    research my book material and my relationship with Linda  wilted and
    faded away.  I was planning to take my  vacation and  take a camping
    trip up  to  Spokane and pick  up  my  son Mike,  and  swing over to
    Seattle see my son Danial (he had asked if he could go  to school in
    Seattle).  Laura was going to tag along to keep me company (strictly
    a platonic  relationship).  During  the course  of the  trip, We had
    stopped for the night at a campground just outside of  The Dalles in
    Oregon.
    I had hooked up my trailer and was  making a campfire.  I stoked the
    fire and was watching it. I became aware of Laura asking me if I was
    OK.  I  remember  looking at  my watch  and seeing that it  was only
    7:00pm saying that was ok and  that I was  going to sit  by the fire
    for a while.  Then Laura seemed to be shaking me asking me  if I was
    ok.  I said that I had "just told her that I was fine" She said that
    that had been almost 5  hours ago. I looked at the fire. It had gone
    out and was cinders. I was perplexed. I had just been looking at it.
    Hell,  I had just started it.  I looked at my watch. it said that it
    was  about 7:15pm.  Laura showed me her  watch.  It said that it was
    well past midnight.  My watch was running and didn't  appear to have
    any damage. I was a bit confused. I was very tired. We went into the
    trailer and I went to bed. That night I had another dream.

    I was in the air.  Flying I guess.  I was looking down on an area of
    trees  and green grass.  There was a river that  snaked  through the
    area.  There  was a community of  houses  nestled in a  crook in the
    river.  Amongst the houses was a small white  clapboard  building. I
    swooped down,  circling the white building. As I approached a ground
    level,  I could see the steeple.  It was a church.  It resembled the
    caricature  of  the  country  church.  I  circled  the  building and
    suddenly I was standing in the grass behind  the building.  It was a
    warm evening.  The sky was just darkening.  I could smell  the newly
    mown lawn as I approached the rear of the building. There was a door
    standing open.  I went into the building.  I seemed to  have entered
    the  church  from  behind the pulpit.  Standing at the pulpit  was a
    rather  overweight  man that  was emphatically  trying  to make some
    point.  I  couldn't  hear  what was  being said.  There was the same
    screeching  that  had been  present when  I had been  in the council
    chambers in  the other dreams.  I looked at  the congregation. There
    were looks of shock and disbelief on their faces.  Sitting among the
    congregation,  there were several people(?)  that had the same helix
    in  place of their  head.  When I saw them I  suddenly felt enraged.
    Each of them rose and quickly left the building.  I rushed out after
    them.  When I got outside, they were gone. The Voice was suddenly in
    my ear  (off  to  the  left  again),  "They  are  everywhere"  I was
    informed.  "They discredit those who suspect the truth" I turned and
    went back  into  the church.  The  overweight  man was still  at the
    pulpit,  the  congregation  still in  shock.  It  was as  if my dash
    through the church had not even been noticed. I was confused.

    fade to black.....

    DREAM 4, THE BREEDING TEMPLE

    The remainder of the trip was uneventful. We went to Spokane, picked
    up Mike  and went  to  Seattle.  My  son Danial was  staying with my
    sister. When we all descended upon my sisters house, it was a little
    crowded.  I  opted to  sleep  on  a  rollaway  bed  in  the rec-room
    (converted garage). The first night there, I decided to walk down to
    the local 7-11  about three blocks away  for some milk.  You can see
    the store from  my  sisters front door.  I  had what  I felt  was an
    uneventful walk to the store,  I bought the milk and  returned home.
    When I  walked in the door,  my sister  jumped up off the  couch and
    demanded to know where I had been.  My sons came rushing out  of the
    bedrooms and before I knew it there was everyone asking me  if I was
    ok.  I continued to tell them that I had just  went to the  store. I
    was then  told that I had been  gone  for several hours and  that my
    sister had called  the police  and listed  me  as  missing. The 7-11
    clerk had told the police that I had been there and bought  the milk
    and had left.  When I checked the  milk that I had purchased, it was
    still cold,  as if  it had just been  removed from  the cooler. That
    night I had another dream.

    I was standing on a hill. There were evergreen trees all about me. I
    was at the edge of a clearing that went down  one side  of the hill.
    The clearing was green and grassy.  Sitting at the foot  of the hill
    was a building.  It was a stone (granite?) building that had columns
    in the front not unlike  the Lincoln Memorial  in  Washington  DC. I
    have  no  remembrance of  coming  down  the hill  but I  am suddenly
    standing in front of the building. I go into the building and in the
    anteroom  there are trappings (tapestries)  on  the walls.  They are
    black and there are gold foil ideograms (characters)  on them. It is
    reminiscent of oriental writing but with a more Aztec look to it. (I
    don't know why I thought that it was Aztec, I wouldn't know Aztec if
    it bit me)  I pass through the anteroom and enter a room  that has a
    "tank"  in it.  When I say tank, I mean that it was like there was a
    pool with the sides made of glass.  You could see into  the tank and
    the liquid hat was in the tank was a pale blue in color.  It was not
    unlike blue milk  in consistency.  As I enter the room  I can  see a
    woman in the liquid at one end of the  tank.  The tank appears to be
    about 6  feet wide,  8-10 feet long and about 2 feet deep. The woman
    is middle aged (40's ?),  short blonde hair.  She has a "sprinkling"
    of  freckles  on  her face  and chest (she  is  nude)  She gives the
    appearance of  being  very  complacent  and  pleased.  Her  eyes are
    closed.  She bears a  striking resemblance to Barbara  Bel-Gedes (of
    Dallas fame)  but younger.  She is sitting in the blue liquid  up to
    her chest.  I can see her breasts .  The Voice is there with  me. He
    tells me that she is part of the "breeding stock".  There  is motion
    at  the other end of  the tank.  I  turn  and I  can  see  a "child"
    suspended (seemingly)  just off the surface of the liquid. The child
    is about 8-10  years old.  He seems to "float" towards the woman. As
    he passes in front of me I can see his penis.  It  is  long and thin
    and I am reminded of a knife blade. As he approaches, she raises her
    legs and he mounts her and they copulate. The Voice tells me that he
    (the  child)  is  one of  her offspring and  that  this  breeding is
    necessary to "strengthen the strain".  The Voice tells me  that once
    impregnated,  she will  be  kept in the liquid  as it is  a "stasis"
    solution that  accelerates fetal growth.  In  the  third  month, the
    fetus will be removed and she will  once  again be  impregnated. The
    fetus  is  placed in another "growth"  tank and  the stasis solution
    will allow for rapid development. When the fetus(?) has developed to
    what can be  likened to a  8-10  year physical development, they are
    "born"  out of  the stasis  solution.  At this point  their brain is
    empty. there is no personality development no maternal bond. Call it
    what you like.  They (the fetus)  is like a PC sitting there with no
    programming other  than the DOS.  the body functions are  there, but
    they  have  no  drive,  no  purpose.  The Voice tells me  that these
    humans(?)  are the Drones.  They are just slaves to perform tasks at
    the discretion  of the malevolence.(Note-the  Voice never identified
    the others as  anything more than  the Satanas or  the malevolence).
    When I ask if the woman is there of her own will, The Voice tells me
    that she is  one that  had been  "taken"  and there are hundreds and
    hundreds of others  that have been  "taken"  for breeding stock. The
    Voice told me that occasionally the malevolence  enhanced the strain
    by  introducing an "outside fetus".  These are  usually removed from
    the maternal unit (his words not mine)  between the  third and sixth
    month of gestation. They are then placed in the stasis and developed
    and introduced as breeders.

    Fade to Black....

    DREAM 5, BACK AT THE TEMPLE

    I can remember awakening and feeling quite confused and disturbed by
    what I had seen.  The day was totally uneventful, that next night, I
    had the same  dream.  This  time  when  I entered the "temple"  I am
    slightly off to one side of the tank.  There is a different woman in
    the tank.  This time it is a younger woman very slight of build with
    long red hair  that  hung  down  and was in  the blue  liquid. I was
    struck  by  the length of her hair.  The  scene was the same  as the
    previous night,  except  that in this  position I  now saw something
    that  I didn't see  the previous visit.  This time I  could see that
    standing in  the liquid,  wearing a  "robe"  that was the exact same
    color as the  liquid there were small people(?).  There were  one on
    each side of the woman.  They were holding her at  her shoulders and
    legs.  As the "child approached,  I could now see that  he was being
    held by two of the same  beings(?).  The Voice informed  me that the
    breeding   temples  were   run  by  Drones.   The  malevolence  only
    occasionally visited or showed up.  I felt the rage  building inside
    of  me again similar  to that which I had experienced  at  the small
    white church.

    Fade to black......

    DREAM 6, WAR

    I returned to my home  in Morgan Hill.  There was  no unusual events
    for several weeks. Then one night the last dream occurred.

    I am in the middle of a pitched battle.  I appear to be in  a bombed
    out  building or structure of  some kind.  I am with a  small blonde
    man.  He has bright blue  eyes.  He is handing me a  silver metallic
    cylinder about two feet long and about 5-6 inches in diameter. It is
    heavy.  At one end there is a red lens like a magnifying  glass. The
    other end is sealed and is silver and metallic. On the side of it is
    a small hole that goes into the cylinder  at an angle.  He hands the
    cylinder to me.  He then shows me how to hold  it.  My thumb goes in
    the hole and my fingers wrap around the cylinder.
    I hold it under my arm against my side like a football. My left hand
    supports the cylinder  under the front near  the  lens.  He explains
    that it is an ionic projector.  It is a weapon  that is used  in the
    war.  He tells me that it is used  to disrupt the  nervous system of
    the enemy.  All about us there are explosions and flashes  of light.
    He turns and picks up  another cylinder  and  pokes  out  through an
    opening in  the wall  there is a  hum as the  cylinder projects what
    looks  like red  light.  It is not like a  laser,  it is more like a
    searchlight.  I see the "enemy". It is a lizard like creature. It is
    about 8 to 10 feet tall. Very thin and bony. It is moving slowly and
    deliberately.  I  point my  "weapon".  I don't know how to  fire it.
    "Push  with  your  thumb"  the blonde says.  I do so.  The red light
    flashes on my target.  It crumples to the ground.  I can now see its
    weapon.  It  looks like  a Viking  sword about  4  feet  long. There
    appears to be a handle  at right  angles to the blade  about halfway
    down the blade.  There is an enormous flash of bright  blue light. I
    turn to look at the blonde  man.  There is just a pile  of black ash
    where he had been.  Suddenly The Voice is there. He is telling me to
    go..  I don't know where to go.  I am confused. I am angry. Where is
    the blonde man?

    I am suddenly in a pink place not unlike that of DREAM 2. there is a
    silver metal table in front  of me.  Laying on the table is  a small
    figure.
    It has a large  head and enormous almond  shaped eyes.  There are no
    ears and two holes where a nose should be. The mouth has no lips. it
    is slightly open forming a oval in the  lower part of the  head. The
    neck is  extremely thin  and does  not look  like it would  have the
    strength to support the massive head.  The Voice is telling  me that
    this is the enemy that I will have to fight(?).  He tells me to turn
    it over. I reach out and push the body onto its side. It is cold and
    rather damp. It feels like a lizard, leathery and soft. I am looking
    at the back of the head. There is a hole (oblong) at the base of the
    neck where it meets the head.  The Voice tells me that the creatures
    have two brains.  Anterior and Posterior. (I have since learned that
    this  means   front  and  rear),   The  creatures   use  the  brains
    simultaneously. Because of this, it is almost impossible to kill the
    creatures.  If shot,  unless shot in both the front and  rear of the
    head, the creature continues to live. One of the brains is dead, but
    the  other continues to  carry on.  If one of  the brains  dies, the
    "power" is now diminished but not terminated. I asked The Voice what
    the  "power"  was.  He told  me  that these creatures  (I have since
    learned that  these are what  are called  GREYS)  have  a telepathic
    capability.  this is limited however.  They have to be very close to
    you to  telepathically link.  They have learned to  overcome this by
    implanting a "crystal"  on the optic nerve of humans (its  about 2-4
    microns in  diameter).  This crystal is "tuned"  to the frequency of
    the "intruder".  It seems that each of the GREYS has a unique mental
    frequency that allows mental  privacy.  If they want to communicate,
    they "switch"  to a mental frequency that is for  communicating. The
    "hosts"  (humans)  are not  on that frequency.  The crystal implants
    allow  the "intruders"  to attach  to  the mental  processes  of the
    "host".  For  the PC  literate in the reading audience,  it  is like
    using a PC Anywhere or Carbon Copy software. The remote suddenly has
    full and complete control over the host.  The Voice informed me that
    there are many "controllers"  among the GREYS. Each "controller" has
    20  to 30  "hosts"  that he maintains. The crystal also enhances the
    range of the telepathic "power". While without the crystal, there is
    a certain amount of telepathic communicative ability at an extremely
    limited distance,  the crystal allows for the "control"  of the host
    from  a distance  that  can be several  miles away.  Thus a "pod" of
    GREYS can summon up an army of 100  to 200 humans and direct them to
    do  what  ever  they want.  (The Voice told me  that the malevolence
    (GREYS) operate in groups they call "PODS" of 8 to 10 with one being
    the leader).  Killing off the human "hosts"  does little to diminish
    the threat.  The "controller"  has to be taken out. This is what The
    Voice was trying to show me.

    The Voice told me that there have  been many cases of  a malevolence
    being shot by a human.  But,  because of the bony plate that divided
    the brain cavities,  the posterior brain continued to function. This
    bony plate is what  we would  call bullet-proof.   In many cases the
    human was given the impression that the  shot had no effect.  A shot
    to the body had little to no effect. The Voice told me that when "in
    the  field"  the malevolence wore  a suit  that  was  made  up  of a
    material that had a molecular density 100  times  what  is common on
    our  planet.  A bullet would not penetrate the  material.  The Voice
    told me that other then shooting them in the head frontal  and rear,
    The only other approach  was a penetration at  the rear  of the head
    where the neck  meets the head.  A  straight penetration for  3 to 5
    inches will sever the cerebral cortex.  It seems that the two brains
    communicate with each other via a "wire"  (nerve bundle) that passes
    through  the bony plate.  The Voice stated that  a knife blade  or a
    gunshot (dicey but possible)  would immediately "kill"  it if it was
    hit in this area.  I asked how this  one had been  killed. The Voice
    told me that he had been  killed "in the  war"  and was here to show
    "protectors" what to do. I told The Voice that I didn't think that I
    could kill  anything.  The  Voice said  that  I  would  when  it was
    necessary. For the first time, I asked The Voice who he was. He told
    me that he was a "teacher" and could not tell me any more than that.

    I felt satisfied with that answer (although I don't know why). I was
    warm all over.

    Fade to black....

    POSTSCRIPT

    That was the last dream that I have had to date. Several things have
    occurred that  are  almost  miraculous  in  nature  from  that time.
    Without apparent effort,  I have lost about 65 lbs. I received a job
    offer that relocated me from CA to WA.  Much in my life  has settled
    and I am content.

    I have related the events listed above as  part of something  that I
    feel the need to do. I really don't care if you believe me or not. I
    am not a prophet of  doom  or,  like some others,  trying to line my
    pockets by pretending to be some kind of authority.  I am just a guy
    that seems to have been thrust into an unusual  circumstance. Ignore
    it?  no chance. I am sure that I have had these dreams. Whether they
    reflect reality or not remains to  be  seen.  At this point I merely
    know what I know.  I  have come to  accept what has occurred  and am
    continuing my life.  I refuse to go to the mat and  try  to convince
    anyone that what has occurred is real.  If you chose  to not believe
    it,  so be it.  If you choose to believe that what I have related is
    true, so be it. I know that it occurred. Since that time I have done
    a  lot of  reading and learning  about  the  UFO  community  and the
    promoters and the nay-sayers.  I am certain that I will be de-bunked
    and called a phony and all the rest.  Confidentially, I don't give a
    ragged rats ass. I know what I know.

    Hasta La Bye-Bye

    Randy Terpstra

EOF

------------------------------------------------------------------------


--
*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*
The accountability of government has gone to the point where the very
use of the law is the instrument of illegality.
        -- Ralph Nader @ Harvard Law School, 1/15/92
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!spool.mu.edu!yale.edu!jvnc.net!rutgers!noao!amethyst!organpipe.uug.arizona.edu!helium!corleyj
From: [e-mail] (Jason D Corley )
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: cockatoo gears have dynastic ambitions
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Dec 92 18:36:44 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Arizona, Tucson
Lines: 36

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Mark. Gooley) writes:
>
>    He slipped into the farm-supply store costume.  It was comfortable.
>The hermits hooked up the power lines, the suicidal gerbils the gas line and
>the heating systems, and a staff was shipped, freeze-dried, from Missouri
>and reconstituted and equipped with the souls of residents of a local nursing
>home.  In a matter of hours he was open, and customers poured in from tanks
>of Liquid Consumer (tm) brought in oversea by camel caravan from Damascus.
>A few locals showed up to complain that they would never inherit from their
>ancient relatives; what with the transmigrations into shapely young salesgirls
>just out of high school, those relatives were now likely to outlive them.
>He chuckled at them inaudibly.
>    Next door a flying saucer fused the ground into a parking lot of
>smooth earthenware with yellow lines painted on in glaze, and he saw a
>lovely young woman put on a discount store costume.  Buddhist monks hooked
>up the power and gas lines, and cars appeared in the beautiful ceramic lot.
>The townsfolk were all ceramics freaks, and they came to admire.  He felt
>his business slipping away: only the unprofitable farm supplies still sold,
>and clothing and candy and household goods began to rot from age.  Local
>fads such as udder salve and distemper vaccine sold well, but that was all.
>In desperation he started a price war.  His salesgirls were beautiful but
>sexual relations with them were impossible in his form.
>    His neighbor consistently undercut his prices with a special undercut
>saw made by dwarfs in Belgium.  In greater desperation he began to give away
>much of his merchandise; she began paying people to take hers away.
>    One night he separated himself from his foundation and sidled over
>to her.  They got to talking and discovered that they had a lot in common:
>they had both been human once, they both sold things, they both purported
>to offer discount prices.  It was a night of retail-business passion, and
>in the morning they looked rather ragged and opened an hour late.  Sixteen
>months later she gave birth to her first branch.
>
>Mark., losing my touch
>[e-mail]

This is significant.
Xref: icaen sci.skeptic:35905 alt.alien.visitors:11913
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!att!dptg!ulysses!ulysses.att.com!rxga
From: [e-mail] (Rick Greer)
Subject: Re: request info on Dogon tribe; any taker
Summary: info from (new) Baker and Nickell book
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 16:18:24 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories, Murray Hill
Followup-To: sci.skeptic
Lines: 65

Here's what Robert Baker and Joe Nickell have to
say about this Dogon issue in their book "Missing Pieces" (1992)
Prometheus Press ISBN 0-87975-729-9

"Another ancient astronaut theorist, Robert Temple (1976), advances
a specific theory of extraterrestrial visitation.  His book
`The Sirius Mystery' argues that beings from the Sirius solar
system visited a West African tribe known as the Dogon over one
thousand years ago.  Temple's  main argument is not new.  It is
that Dogon legends provide accurate astronomical information
about a dwarf star in the Sirius system -- a star, known
as Sirius B, that was not discovered until 1862, although
the Dogon legends are supposed much earlier.

"As it happens, investigators discredited the claim on various grounds,
Ridpath (1978),for example, demonstrated that the Sirius system
is incapable of supporting life.  Moreover, he and others have,
by careful analysis of the claims, shown that the Dogon's knowledge
about Sirius B corresponded to the astronomical thinking of the 1920s,
a time when European missionaries had begun to visit them.  Thus, it would
appear that  `When westerners in the early twentieth century learned
of the Dogon's interest in Sirius, they told them of Sirius B
and that information was incorporated into the legends' (Hines 1988,
p. 218)"

    Ridpath,I. 1978.  Messages from the Stars.  New York, Harper Row.
    Hines, R. 1988.  Pseudoscience and the Paranormal.  Prometheus Books.

The first part of the Baker-Nickell book consists of a description
of the paranormal landscape and how good scientists can investigate it.
The second part consists of applications of these principles to UFOs,
ghosts, and other specific paranormal areas.

There are many, many references in this book for the further
edification of the reader.  And there is a lot of helpful, sound
information throughout.

Sadly, at least in the UFO chapter, they (remarkably) violate
many of the principles they espouse in the first part:  they
engage in sarcastic, ad hominem attacks, they appeal to authority,
they argue against one case and then imply that they have just
dispensed with all of the cases, and some of their arguments
have holes you could drive a truck through.

    For example, their explanation of UFOs in Sweden
from 1939 through a big flap in 1946 (p. 188)
(`In 1946, the Swedish Defense Staff received over 200 reports of
cigar-shaped objects -- some with wings -- many of which were
seen in broad daylight.'), is that German V1/V2 rockets were
responsible.  Well, my understanding is the Nazis didn't have
the rockets in 1939, they certainly weren't firing them in 1946,
and when they were firing them, they were firing them at England,
not Sweden.  Their argument that UFO flaps feed on themselves
is weak here if the presumed stimulus (V1/V2 rockets) are totally
missing from the skies.

    But nonetheless, there is a lot of useful and thought-provoking
information in this book and I'm happy I bought it.  On the bright
side, you can look forward to the fruitful application of the
investigative principles you read in the first part to the material
in the second half.

Rick Greer

`standard disclaimer`
Organization: Junior, Math/Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!news.sei.cmu.edu!fs7.ece.cmu.edu!crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!sl31+
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Message-ID: <wf=[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 22:32:06 -0500
From: "Stephen M. Lacy" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
In-Reply-To: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 17

Excerpts from netnews.alt.alien.visitors: 14-Dec-92 Re: Bigfootf
spaceman? by Bjoern Tore [e-mail].
> Keep posting the stories of your lives, but try to make them shorter,
as I find

I find it hard to translate those long stories into Solar Max, you know,
it just takes so long.  BTW, anyone try to develop the CFG (context free
grammar) for Solar Max yet?  I'm interested....

Steve

:)


"No matter what happens, never believe that you have learned something
you were not supposed to know." -Steve Lacy

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!spool.mu.edu!agate!ames!news.hawaii.edu!uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu!markh
From: [e-mail] (Mark Holladay)
Subject: AWAKE
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News Service)
Nntp-Posting-Host: uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu
Organization: University of Hawaii
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 06:08:47 GMT
Lines: 27


                      IS ANYONE LISTENING?

     The UFO thing seems to be a multidimensional thing.  I mean,
how can anyone travel across vast distances without traveling
faster than light?  And if F.T.L. travel is possible, maybe it's
done multidimensional.  If multidimensional travel is possible,
(F.T.L.) then forward and backward in time communication is
possible.  FTL communication and transportation is somehow linked
to New Age Channeling, maybe FTL communication?
     If FTL communication is linked to channeling, thought
transference, then what is inter dimensional transportation linked
to?  Maybe the electromagnetic field of the body is a link to FTL
communication and the electromagnetic field of the earth is linked
to FTL transportation?  Has anyone heard of the electromagnetic
field zone wars?  Now and in the past?  Are there places on the
earth that allow FTL transportation?  Inter dimensional
transportation?  Power spots?  What does the great pyramid mean?
     If someone from the future wanted to communicate with us
wouldn't they use FTL tech.?  Wouldn't they know the mechanism of
the brain to do this?  It seems to me that communication is the
first step, then comes the way to travel.  I think the way to
travel is beyond our concepts at this time.

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ HAVE FUN @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
[e-mail]
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!spool.mu.edu!umn.edu!staff.tc.umn.edu!gslars
From: [e-mail] ()
Subject: Stollman, Winston, et al.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News Administration)
Nntp-Posting-Host: staff.tc.umn.edu
Organization: University of Minnesota
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 06:57:37 GMT
Lines: 10

Doesn't it seem a little strange that there's a John Winston to pick
up where Gary Stollman left off?  Is it just a coincidence that their
postings are better (gramatically) and more carefully written than those
of anyone else?  All of you folks who are constantly ranting about
Winston could be the most gullible of all.  What I'm saying, of course,
is that perhaps these postings are put there simply to serve as objects
of derision.  In that respect, they serve their purpose well.
(My apologies to both Winston and Stollman if they are sincere, but you
can't blame it if some of us are a little skeptical.)  Too bad there
isn't a moderated version of this topic.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mcsun!fuug!penet!anon
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: AAA NEWS
X-Anonymously-To: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: Anonymous contact service
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 21:37:31 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Anonymous contact service)
Lines: 15

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:

>I can't write...years ago...a man came to me asking for sanctuary from the
>throngs of movie-goers, pressing forward, anxiously awaiting fresh pop-corn.
>I was shocked...in one moment...I too felt the pain.  I swept him up,
>pushing away from the crowd, resisting the urge to wrap the chain around his
>neck.

>Hi X32KB @ CUNYVM

Time for a Thorazine refill, perhaps?  Eegee eege boolu bop?  Wooooooo!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
To find out more about the anon service, send mail to [e-mail].
Please note you _don't_ have to have an anon id to receive anonymous mail!
To see how your anonymized message would appear, mail it to [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!haven.umd.edu!darwin.sura.net!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbnewsc!cbfsb!cbnewsg.cb.att.com!cooper
From: [e-mail] (Ralph 'Hairy' Moonen)
Subject: Re: Strange Tidbits
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: AT&T
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 08:56:36 GMT
Lines: 18

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jeffrey Hazelwood) writes:
>
> First of all, alien freaks don't get pissed because this is posted here!
>
> Now, does anyone have any info on the dude in Florida that built his entire
> house out of Coral. It had huge blocks and a revolving 2 ton block door.  The
> cat claimed to have figured out the "secret" of gravity and all kinds of other
> stuff.  Anyone in the know?

I once saw a documentary on this guy, and my memory tells me it wasn't coral,
but granite. And they didn't say anything about the secret of gravity, just
about absolutely remarkable engineering. The bit about the door is very
interesting though. Indeed a 2-ton granite slab was so mounted that you
could open it with 1 slight push and without exerting a lot of force.
The way I remember it, I was impressed. I would like some more info though
also.

--Ralph
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!kuhub.cc.ukans.edu!wupost!spool.mu.edu!agate!soda.berkeley.edu!sfd
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: AWAKE
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
From: [e-mail] (Scott Drellishak)
Date: 15 Dec 1992 09:08:22 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Metaphor Computer Systems
NNTP-Posting-Host: soda.berkeley.edu
Lines: 112

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Mark Holladay) writes:
)
)                      IS ANYONE LISTENING?
)
)     The UFO thing seems to be a multidimensional thing.

Meaning what?  More than one kind of unit is involved?  Meters *and*
seconds?  Explain "multidimensional".

)I mean,
)how can anyone travel across vast distances without traveling
)faster than light?

By travelling across vast distances slower than light.  Who is it who
is travelling these vast distances, so we know what your example is?

)And if F.T.L. travel is possible, maybe it's
)done multidimensional.

If it's possible, maybe it's done hyperboreal.  Or pseudopalatial.
What exactly do you *mean*, and what makes you think F.T.L. travel is
possible?

)If multidimensional travel is possible,
)(F.T.L.) then forward and backward in time communication is
)possible.

How does this follow?  Since you don't explain what "multidimensional"
means to you, how are we to understand the reasoning?  Couldn't you
just as easily have said "Since God is all simple, then time travel is
possible"?  ("all simple" is an actual term I learned in a Catholic
theology class, and seems to have as much to do with FTL travel as
"multidimensional" travel, until we know what you mean).

)FTL communication and transportation is somehow linked
)to New Age Channeling, maybe FTL communication?

Is this a statement, or a question?  If the latter, how about "no"?
Do you have any reason to think otherwise?  Evidence of channellers
travelling faster than light, for instance?

)     If FTL communication is linked to channeling, thought
)transference, then what is inter dimensional transportation linked
)to?

Heart disease?  Poor motor skills?  Just about anything you want it to
be, if you don't require any examples, understanding, or evidence.

)Maybe the electromagnetic field of the body is a link to FTL
)communication and the electromagnetic field of the earth is linked
)to FTL transportation?

Maybe.  So what?  Maybe I'm a grey.  What makes this unprovably
ill-stated assertion better than any other?

)Has anyone heard of the electromagnetic
)field zone wars?

Didn't this lead to the breakup of the Phone Company [tm]?

)Now and in the past?  Are there places on the
)earth that allow FTL transportation?  Inter dimensional
)transportation?  Power spots?

I'd guess "no".  Do you have any reason to think otherwise?  (Are "power
spots" those dots which appear around super-heroes when they're using their
super-powers?  Or are those "power balls"?)

)What does the great pyramid mean?

Egyptians were pretty serious about (a) the afterlife, and (b) the
absolute authority of the Pharoah?

)     If someone from the future wanted to communicate with us
)wouldn't they use FTL tech.?

Why not use time travel tech?  You haven't explained the link between
FTL tech and time travel.  For that matter, you haven't demonstrated
any cases of FTL travel or time travel.

)Wouldn't they know the mechanism of
)the brain to do this?

Is the brain now considered "tech"?  I thought it was an organ.

)It seems to me that communication is the
)first step, then comes the way to travel.

In the same way that Columbus communicated with the Americas before he
travelled there?  Or humans communicated with the Moon before sending
spacecraft there?  This is a blind assertion, and a false one at that.

)I think the way to
)travel is beyond our concepts at this time.

So is the way to communicate.  Unless you can provide some examples of
time/FTL communication for us to ponder.

)@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ HAVE FUN @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
)[e-mail]
)@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

Sorry about the sarcasm.  I am curious to hear more details --
wouldn't it be cool if we actually figured out how to travel faster
than light?  What the hell!  Let's explore some weird ideas!

Scott Drellishak
--
/--------------------------------------------------------------------------\
| Scott Drellishak   [e-mail]                          |
|                "Spumco ... the Danes call it quality."                   |
\--------------------------------------------------------------------------/
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!wupost!spool.mu.edu!agate!dog.ee.lbl.gov!hellgate.utah.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Possible Kill File Uses
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Dec 92 00:00:01 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - <ParaNet(sm) , Arvada CO
Lines: 15


 > If there is a place where the subject at hand is discussed in a rational
 > manner, please let me know- and you won't be able to see me for the dust
 > I'll raise getting the hell out of here.

Subscribe to [e-mail].

We do a lot of serious discussion on this subject.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!wupost!spool.mu.edu!agate!dog.ee.lbl.gov!hellgate.utah.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!f10.n2403.z2.FIDONET.ORG!Andre.Eichner
From: [e-mail] (Andre Eichner)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Antigravity
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Dec 92 21:46:00 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 2:2403/10 - FidoNet Berli, Berlin 41
Lines: 24

* Crossposted in UFO.GER
* Crossposted in ALIEN
*** Antwort auf eine Mitteilung in Area ALIEN.

Hello waddell!

Am Montag, 30 November 1992 schrieb waddell an All:


 w> Edgar Casey says that they understood and used anti-gravity.  Speaking of
 w> which, did anyone else see the Australian produced program "Beyond 2000" on
 w>  the Discovery Channel that showed an electical-magnetic anti-gravity field
 w>  and that it's first commercial use would be in shock absorbers for cars?

Can you write more about this? It's a very interesting subject!
I've a interesting book about the electrical-gravity-effekt (Biefeld-Brown-Effekt) with instruktions for experiments.

Liebe Gruesse
   Andre

--
Andre Eichner - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!olivea!spool.mu.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!ira.uka.de!math.fu-berlin.de!news.belwue.de!news.uni-ulm.de!news
From: [e-mail] ((...))
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: HUFON REPORT ON UNDERGROUND BASES IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Dec 92 09:56:22 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (News Net)
Organization: FHU
Lines: 10
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.22

HI !!

Could somebode PLEASE post the

          UGBASES.GIF

picture to this newsgroup !!!!


Cheers Heiko
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!spool.mu.edu!agate!doc.ic.ac.uk!uknet!str-ccsun!dct.ac.uk!mcsdc1al
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Crop circles- a scientific approach
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Dec 92 09:38:36 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Dundee Institute of Technology
Lines: 24

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Joseph Daniels) writes:
> To: [e-mail] (Michael B Garrett -- Chudys)
> From: [e-mail]
>
> MBG-C|My question: If someone is seriously researching this stuff, I think
>      |they should be aware of this technique so as to know when it has been
>      |used. Admittedly, we're no dummies- but if we could think of it, so could
>      |someone else- and I think it casts enough of a doubt on the studies done
>      |thus far to be worthy of thought/consideration. Don't you think so?
>      `--------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>      If what you claim is true. The British have a huge reward posted
>      for anyone that can produce crop circles. To date no one has been
>      able to duplicate them and collect the reward.

There's NO reward.  We used to make circles all the time and no-one gave us sod
all.  The KLF used to make crop circles and no-one gave them anything.  I think
crop circles can be writtenn off as a fake.


>
> ---
>  . SLMR 2.1a . Mulroney's a "contact" man: a CON with no TACT!
>
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13258 sci.skeptic:35912 alt.alien.visitors:11924
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Tunnels #1.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 92 06:24:00 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 2

Dear Folk: Without  a doubt things are going according to plan.
John Winston
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13259 alt.alien.visitors:11925
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Skeptic's UFO. Part 3.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 92 06:27:42 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 2

Dear Ones: I appreciate you people putting up with me.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13260 alt.alien.visitors:11926 alt.religion.kibology:5318
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 92 06:35:26 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Dear Folks: Where do all you people come from? To borrow a phrase
from the great Len, by the way I'm a christian too.
John Winston
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!news.sei.cmu.edu!fs7.ece.cmu.edu!crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!<UNAUTHENTICATED>+
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Message-ID: <wf=[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 09:31:58 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Strange Tidbits
In-Reply-To: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 49


Jeff Hazelwood writes:

Now, does anyone have any info on the dude in Florida that built his entire
house out of Coral. It had huge blocks and a revolving 2 ton block door.  The
cat claimed to have figured out the "secret" of gravity and all kinds of other
stuff.  Anyone in the know?


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey T. Hazelwood                    Universitdt Heidelberg
EMAIL: [e-mail]       Heidelberg, Germany
--------------------------------------------------------------------


The man's name was Edward Leedskalnin (sp?) .  The site is called Coral
Castle (located near Homestead, Florida) which, more than anything else,
resembles a child's playground contructed of huge coral blocks (the largest
tips the scales at close to 30 tons).  The most fascinating aspect of this
site is that it was constructed solely by Leedskalnin, disassembled by him
when he felt his safety was in danger, and then completely reassembled
some miles down the road - all without assistance (other than a truck to
move the blocks once Leedskalnin had loaded them on the back of the bed).

This flurry of construction took place, if memory serves, sometime during
the 20's or 30's (I'll dig out my sources if the dates are important).
Leedskalnin claimed to know how the pyramids were built - the site's
imposing nature and the manner of its' construction suggests he may indeed
have had the knowledge.  He was always very secretive about his methods
and never moved the coral blocks while witnesses were present.

Leedskalnin wrote several books outlining his theories on magnetism (available
from Coral Castle for something like $7.95).  Unfortunately, he only attained
a fourth grade education so his theories seem somewhat simplistic.
(I can rummage through my old books if you need the address)

For those of you who feel the pyramids could only be built by aliens, I
suggest you look closely at Coral Castle - and see what one small
individual (95 lbs) could do on his own over the course of a few years.

chris

 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Chris Hendy            | Gulf Tower           | Internet: [e-mail]
  DBA-DataBase Anarchist | 707 Grant Street     | Voice:       [phone]
  Transarc Corporation   | Pittsburgh PA  15219 | FAX:         [phone]
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------


Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:13261 alt.alien.visitors:11928 alt.religion.kibology:5326
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!spool.mu.edu!uunet!pipex!warwick!warwick!not-for-mail
From: [e-mail] (Mr J L Saunders)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Date: 15 Dec 1992 18:35:22 -0000
Organization: Computing Services, University of Warwick, UK
Lines: 21
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: lily.csv.warwick.ac.uk

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

%Dear Folks: Where do all you people come from? To borrow a phrase
%from the great Len, by the way I'm a christian too.
%John Winston

I'd rather be an X-man than an X-ian - there's only four letters difference
between "i" and "m" <don't pronounce the quotes>, but what a difference! I
note with interest that you spell christian with a small "c". Does that mean
you are a humanitarian? How do you feel about the Dead Sea scrolls? in
particular the theory that Christ was married to Mary Magdalen, and the virgin
Mary wasn't a virgin at all, but the term "virgin" was used to denote a woman
who was betrothed, but not yet married... Food for thought.

Jason "Wolverine" Saunders
By the way, I come from Coventry in England.
--
    "Merry Xvob!"      Jason L Saunders [ RouE ]       "Merry Xvob!"
                     email: [e-mail]
snail: Warwick Business School, University of Warwick, Coventry CV4 7AL, UK

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!cs.utexas.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!yale.edu!spool.mu.edu!umn.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!rkrouse
From: [e-mail] (Robert K. Rouse)
Subject: Fresh Air - Letter
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 20:22:57 GMT
Lines: 23




I just wrote the the radio program Fresh Air about having on some
UFO investigators that believe in actual contacts with intelligent
alien life forms:  I asked for David Hamilton, John Lear, Bill
Cooper and Timothy Good for starters.  The address is:

    Fresh Air
    Radio Station WHYY
    150 N. Sixth Street
    Philadelphia, PA 19106
    [phone]
--
============================================================
  "No creature that is intelligent and with the right
   values is an alien to me."
                        John Salter
============================================================
    Robert K. Rouse        [e-mail]
============================================================


Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!olivea!stratus!florida!lpb
From: [e-mail] (Len Bucuvalas)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: The Story of EBE
Keywords: cia, mj12, bush, rockefeller, hapsburg, rothschild
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Dec 92 20:57:12 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Distribution: usa
Lines: 1846

EBE means = Extra Biological Entity...the following file may
or may not be true.....YOU Decide!

Samurai_Writer
=============================================================
From Don Allen:

I found the following file when I was re-organizing my disk collection. I
didn't even know I had this until the other day and sat down and read the
whole thing. I've decided to post it for informational purposes only. I
have *not* received permission from Apogee Publishing Company nor ParaNet
to re-publish it. Other than the removal of the _continuation_ headers
to conserve space, the file is presented intact in 2 parts.


FILENAME: EBE.DOC
=============================================================================


Message #799 - INFO.PARANET
   Date : 25-Jan-91 14:00
   From : Michael Corbin
     To : All
Subject : EBE #1
Recently, Jerry Clark published the first of three volumes titled "UFOs in the
1980s," an invaluable research tool containing a host of information on the
who, where and what of UFOlogy. With his kind permission and the kind
permission of Apogee Publishing Company, we are reprinting an article taken
from that book -- Extraterrestrial Biological Entity.  In this article, Jerry
culls all of the past history and controversy surrounding the MJ-12
controversy and other related material that has spewed forth from the extreme
side of UFOlogy representing the ETH such as Lear, Cooper and others. Although
this might be considered by some to be "old news," Jerry's chronology of
events shed a different light on the players that have made up this compendium
of scenarios -- aliens eating humans, genetic experimentation and the gamut of
sensationalistic information that drove Paul Bennewitz to an NBD at the kind
hands of admitted-disinformant, William L. Moore.

This article is being presented here in its entirety contained in 18 messages
including this one.  The entire body of these messages are copyrighted (C)
1990 by Apogee Books with license to ParaNet(sm) Information Service for
reproduction on this forum.  No further reposting or copying is allowed
without express written permission of the publisher.

This file was provided by ParaNet(sm) Information Service
and its network of international affiliates.
ParaNet has received exclusive permission to reprint this
article by the copyright holder.
============================================================
For further information on ParaNet(sm), contact:
Michael Corbin
ParaNet Information Service
P.O. Box 928
Wheatridge, CO  80034-0928
============================================================
UFOs in the 1980s
(C) 1990 by Apogee Books and Jerome Clark
Pages 85 - 109
============================================================
EXTRATERRESTRIAL BIOLOGICAL ENTITIES

 Perhaps the strangest and most convoluted UFO story of the 1980s
concerns   allegations  from  various  sources,  some   of   them
individuals  connected with military and  intelligence  agencies,
that  the U.S. government not only has communicated with but  has
an  ongoing  relationship  with  what  are  known  officially  as
"extraterrestrial biological entities," or EBEs.

The Emenegger/Sandler Saga: The story begins in 1973, when Robert
Emenegger  and  Alan  Sandler,  two  well-connected  Los  Angeles
businessmen, were invited to Norton Air Force Base in  California
to  discuss  a  possible documentary film  on  advanced  research
projects. Two military officials, one the base's head of the  Air
Force  Office  of Special Investigations, the other,  the  audio-
visual director Paul Shartle, discussed a number of projects. One
of them involved UFOs. This one sounded the most interesting  and
plans were launched to go ahead with a film on the subject.

 Emenegger and Sandler were told of a film taken at Holloman AFB,
New  Mexico,  in  May  1971.  In  October  1988,  in  a  national
television broadcast, Shartle would declare that he had seen  the
16mm  film  showing "three disc-shaped craft. One  of  the  craft
landed  and two of them went away." A door opened on  the  landed
vehicle and three beings emerged. Shartle said, "They were human-
size.  They  had an odd, gray complexion and a  pronounced  nose.
They  wore tightfitting jump suits, [and] thin  headdresses  that
appeared  to  be communication devices, and in their  hands  they
held  a  'translator.' A Holloman base commander  and  other  Air
Force officers went out to meet them" (Howe, 1989).

 Emenegger was led to believe he would be given the film for  use
in  his  documentary. He was even taken to Norton and  shown  the
landing  site  and the building in which the spaceship  had  been
stored  and  others (Buildings 383 and 1382)  in  which  meetings
between  Air  Force personnel and the aliens had  been  conducted
over the next several days. According to his sources, the landing
had  taken place at 6 a.m. The extraterrestrials  were  "doctors,
professional  types." Their eyes had vertical slits like a  cat's
and their mouths were thin and slitlike, with no chins." All that
Emenegger was told of what occurred in the meetings was a  single
stray "fact": that the military people said they were  monitoring
signals from an alien group with which they were unfamiliar,  and
did their ET guests know anything about them? The ETs said no.

 Emenegger's military sources said he would be given 3200 feet of
film  taken  of  the  landing.  At  the  last  minute,   however,
permission  was  withdrawn, although Emenegger and  Sandler  were
encouraged   to  describe  the  Holloman  episode  as   something
hypothetical, something that could happen or might happen in  the
future.  Emenegger  went to Wright-Patterson AFB,  where  Project
Blue Book had been located until its closing in 1969, to ask Col.
George  Weinbrenner  one  of  his  military  contacts,  what  had
happened.  According  to Emenegger's account, the  exchange  took
place in Weinbrenner's office. The colonel stood up, walked to  a
chalkboard  and  complained in a loud voice, "That damn  MIG  25!
Here  we're  so public with everything we have. But  the  Soviets
have  all  kinds of things we don't know about. We need  to  know
more about the MIG 25!" Moving to a bookshelf and continuing  his
monologue  about the Russian jet fighter, he handed  Emenegger  a
copy  of  J. Allen Hynek's The UFO Experience  (1972),  with  the
author's signature and dedication to Weinbrenner. "It was like  a
scene from a Kafka play," Emenegger would recall , inferring from
the colonel's odd behavior that he was confirming the reality  of
the   film  while  making  sure  that  no  one  overhearing   the
conversation realized that was what he was doing.

 The  documentary  film  UFO's Past, Present  &  Future  (Sandler
Institutional  Films,  Inc.) was released in 1974  along  with  a
paperback  book  of  the same title.  The  Holloman  incident  is
recounted in three pages (127-29) of the book's "Future" section.
Elsewhere,  in  a  section of photos  and  illustrations,  is  an
artist's  conception of what one of the Holloman entities  looked
like,  though  it, along with other alien figures,  is  described
only  as  being "based on  eyewitness  descriptions"  (Emenegger,
1974). Emenegger's association with the military and intelligence
he had met while doing the film would continue for years. At  one
point in the late 1980s his sources told him that He was about to
be invited to film an interview with a live extraterrestrial in a
Southwestern state, he says, but nothing came of it.

The  Suffern Story: On October 7, 1975, a 27-year old  carpenter,
Robert  Suffern,  of Bracebridge, Ontario, got a  call  from  his
sister who had seen a "fiery glow" near his barn and concluded it
was  on  fire. Suffern drove to the spot and,  after  determining
that there was no problem, got back on the road. There, he  would
testify, he encountered a large disc-shaped object resting in his
path. "I was scared," he said. "It was right there in front of me
with  no  lights and no sign of life." But even  before  his  car
could  come to a complete stop, the object abruptly ascended  out
of sight. Suffern turned his car around and decided to head  home
rather  than  to  his  sister's  place,  his  original   intended
destination. At that point a small figure wearing a helmet and  a
silver-gray suit stepped in front of the car, causing Suffern  to
hit  the brakes and skid to a stop. The figure ran into a  field.
Then, according to Suffern, "when he got to the fence, he put his
hands  on a post and went over it with no effort at all.  It  was
like he was weightless" (UFOIL, n.d.).

 Within  two days Suffern's report was on the wire services,  and
Suffern   was   besieged  by  UFO   investigators,   journalists,
curiosity-seekers,  and  others. Suffern, who made no  effort  to
exploit his story and gave every appearance of believing what  he
was  saying, soon tired of discussing it. A year later,  however,
Suffern  and his wife told a Canadian investigator that  a  month
after  the encounter, they were informed that  some  high-ranking
officials  wished to speak with them. Around this time,  so  they
claimed,  they  were  given  thorough  examinations  by  military
doctors. After that an appointment was set up for December 12 and
on  that  day an Ontario Provincial Police cruiser  arrived  with
three  military officers, one Canadian, two American.  They  were
carrying books and other documents. In the long conversation that
followed,  the officers apologized for the UFO landing,  claiming
it   was  a  "mistake"  caused  by  the  malfunctioning   of   an
extraterrestrial spaceship.

 The  officers produced close-up pictures of UFOs, claiming  that
the  U.S. and Canadian governments had had intimate knowledge  of
aliens  since 1943 and were cooperating with them.  The  officers
even  knew  the  exact  dates  and  times  of  two  previous  but
unreported  UFO sightings on the Suffern property.  The  Sufferns
said  the  officers had answered all their  questions  fully  and
frankly,  but  they would not elaborate on what they  were  told.
Reinterviewed  about  the matter some months  later,  the  couple
stuck by their story but added few further details.

 The  investigator, Harry Tokarz, would remark,  "Robert  Suffern
strikes one as an individual who carefully measures his thoughts.
His  sincerity  comes through clearly as he  slowly  relates  his
concepts and ideas. His wife, a home-bred country girl, is  quick
to air her views and state unequivocally what she believes to  be
fact" (CUFORN, 1983).

EBEs in South Dakota: On February 9, 1978, a curious document--an
apparent  carbon  copy  of an official U.S.  Air  Force  incident
report-arrived at the office of the National Enquirer in Lantana,
Florida.  Accompanying the document was an unsigned letter  dated
"29  Jan." It read: "The incident stated in the  attached  report
actually  occurred.  The Air Force appointed a  special  team  of
individuals  to  investigate  the incident. I was  one  of  those
individuals.  I am still on active duty and so I cannot state  my
name at this time. It is not that I do not trust the Enquirer  (I
sure [sic] you would treat my name with [sic] confidence but I do
not trust others.) The incident which occurred on 16 Nov. 77, was
classified top secret on 2 Dec 77. At that time I obtained a copy
of the original report. I thought at that time that the Air Force
would  probably  hush the whole thing up, and they did.  The  Air
Force  ordered the silence on 1 Dec 77, after which,  the  report
was  classified. There were 16 pictures taken at the scene. I  do
not have access to the pictures at this time" (Pratt, 1984).

 The report, stamped FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY, purported to be  from
the commander of the 44th Missile Security Squadron at  Ellsworth
AFB near Rapid City, South Dakota. The incident was described  as
a  "Helping  Hand (security  violation)/Covered  Wagon  (security
violation) at Lima 9 (68th SMSq Area), 7 miles SW of Nisland, SD,
at  2100  hours on 16 Nov. 77." The recipient of the  report  was
identified  as "Paul D. Hinzman, SSgt, USAF,  Comm/Plotter,  Wing
Security  Control."  Two security men, Airmen 1st  Class  Kenneth
Jenkins  and  Wayne  E.  Raeke,  experienced  and  reported   the
incident,  which  was investigated by Capt. Larry D.  Stokes  and
TSgt. Robert E. Stewart.

 The  document told an incredible story. At 10:59 on the  evening
of November 16 an alarm sounded from the Lima Nine missile  site.
Jenkins  and Raeke, at tHe Lima Launch Control Facility 35  miles
away,  were dispatched to the scene. On their arrival  Raeke  set
out  to  check the rear fence line. There he spotted  a  helmeted
figure  in  a glowing green metallic suit. The figure  pointed  a
weapon  at Raeke's rifle and caused it to  disintegrate,  burning
Raeke's  hands and arms in the process. Raeke  summoned  Jenkins,
who  carried  his  companion back to their  Security  Alert  Team
vehicle.  When  Jenkins went to the rear fence line, he  saw  two
similarly-garbed figures. He ordered them to halt, but when  they
ignored  his command, he opened fire. His bullets struck  one  in
the shoulder and the other in the helmet. The figures ran over  a
hill and were briefly lost to view. Jenkins pursued them and when
he  next  saw  them, they  were  entering  a  20-foot-in-diameter
saucer-shaped object, which shot away over the Horizon.

 As  Raeke  was  air-evacuated  from  the  scene,   investigators
discovered that the missile's nuclear components had been stolen.

 Enquirer  reporters suspected a hoax but when they called  Rapid
City and Ellsworth to check on the names, they were surprised  to
learn  that such persons did exist. Moreover, all were on  active
duty.  The  Enquirer launched an investigation,  sending  several
reporters  to  Rapid City. Over the course of the next  few  days
they found that although the individuals were real, the  document
inaccurately  listed  their  job titles,  the  geography  of  the
alleged  incident was wrong (there was no nearby hill over  which
intruders could have run), Raeke had suffered no injuries, he and
Jenkins did not even know each other, and no one (including Rapid
City  civilian  residents and area ranchers) had  heard  anything
about  such  an encounter. As one of the  reporters,  Bob  Pratt,
wrote   in  a  subsequent  account,  "We  found  more   than   20
discrepancies  or  errors in the report  -wrong  names,  numbers,
occupations, physical layouts and so on. Had the Security  Option
alert mentioned in the report taken place, it would have involved
all  security personnel at the base and everyone at the base  and
in  Rapid  City (Population 45,000 plus) would have  known  about
it."

The  Bennewitz  Affair:  In the late  1970s  Paul  Bennewitz,  an
Albuquerque businessman trained as a physicist, became  convinced
that   he   was   monitoring   electromagnetic   signals    which
extraterrestrials   were  using  to  control  persons  they   had
abducted. Bennewitz tried to decode these signals and believed he
was succeeding. At the same time he began to see what he  thought
were UFOs maneuvering around the Manzano Nuclear Weapons  Storage
Facility  and the Coyote Canyon test area, located near  Kirtland
AFB, and he filmed them.

 Bennewitz reported all this to the Tucson-based Aerial Phenomena
Research  Organization (APRO), whose directors were  unimpressed,
judging  Bennewitz  to be deluded. But at  Kirtland,  Bennewitz's
claims,  or  at  least  some  of  them,  were  being  taken  more
seriously.  On  October 24, 1980, Bennewitz contacted  Air  Force
Office of Special Investigations (AFOSI) agent Sgt. Richard  Doty
(whose  previous tour of duty had been at Ellsworth) after  being
referred  to him by Maj. Ernest Edwards, head of  base  security,
and  related  that  he had evidence  that  something  potentially
threatening  was going on in the Manzano Weapons Storage Area.  A
"Multipurpose  Internal OSI Form," signed by Maj. Thomas A.  Cseh
(Commander  of the Base Investigative Detachment), dated  October
28,  1980,  and  subsequently  released  under  the  Freedom   of
Information Act, states:

 "On  26 Oct 80, SA [Special Agent] Doty, with the assistance  of
JERRY MILLER, GS-15, Chief, Scientific Advisor for Air Force Test
and  Evaluation Center, KAFB , interviewed Dr. BENNEWITZ  at  his
home in the Four Hills section of Albuquerque, which is  adjacent
to  the  northern boundary of Manzano Base. (NOTE:  MILLER  is  a
former  Project Blue Book USAF Investigator who was  assigned  to
Wright-Patterson  AFB (W-PAFB), OH, with FTD [Foreign  Technology
Division].  Mr.  MILLER  is one of  the  most  knowledgeable  and
impartial investigators of Aerial Objects in the southwest.)  Dr.
BENNEWITZ  has been conducting independent research  into  Aerial
Phenomena  for  the last 15 months. Dr. BENNEWITZ  also  produced
several  electronic  recording  tapes,  allegedly  showing   high
periods of electrical magnetism being emitted from Manzano/Coyote
Canyon  area. Dr. BENNEWITZ also produced several photographs  of
flying  objects taken over the general Albuquerque area.  He  has
several  pieces of electronic surveillance equipment  pointed  at
Manzano  and  is attempting to record high  frequency  electrical
beam  pulses. Dr. BENNEWITZ claims these Aerial  Objects  produce
these  pulses.  . . . After analyzing the data collected  by  Dr.
BENNEWITZ, Mr MILLER related the evidence clearly shows that some
type of unidentified aerial objects were caught on film; however,
no conclusions could be made whether these objects pose a  threat
to  Manzano/Coyote Canyon areas. Mr MILLER felt the  electronical
[sic]  recording  tapes  were inconclusive and  could  have  been
gathered  from several conventional sources. No sightings,  other
than these, have been reported in the area."

 On November 10 Bennewitz was invited to the base to present  his
findings to a small group of officers and scientists. Exactly one
week later Doty informed Bennewitz that AFOSI had decided against
further  consideration of the matter. Subsequently Doty  reported
receiving a call from then-New Mexico Sen. Harrison Schmitt,  who
wanted  to know what AFOSI was planning to do  about  Bennewitz's
allegations.  When  informed that no investigation  was  planned,
Schmitt spoke with Brig. Gen. William Brooksher of base security.
The  following  July New Mexico's other senator,  Pete  Domenici,
looked into the matter, meeting briefly with Doty before  dashing
off to talk with Bennewitz personally. Domenici subsequently lost
interest and dropped the issue.

 Bennewitz  was also aware of supposed cattle  mutilations  being
reported  in  the western United States. At one point  he  met  a
young mother who told him that one evening in May 1980, after she
and  her  six-year-old son saw several UFOs in a  field  and  one
approached them, they suffered confusion and disorientation, then
a period of amnesia which lasted as long as four hours. Bennewitz
brought  the  two to University of Wyoming  psychologist  R.  Leo
Sprinkle, who hypnotized them and got a detailed abduction  story
from  the mother and a sketchy one from the little boy. Early  in
the  course  of the abduction they observed aliens  take  a  calf
aboard the UFO and mutilate it while it was still alive, removing
the   animal's  genitals.  At  one  point  during   the   alleged
experience,  the  mother said, they were taken via  UFO  into  an
underground  area  which  she believed was  in  New  Mexico.  She
briefly  escaped  her captors and fled into an area  where  there
were  tanks  of water. She looked into one of them and  saw  body
parts  such  as tongues, hearts and internal  organs,  apparently
from  cattle.  But  she also observed a human  arm  with  a  hand
attached.  There  was also the "top of a bald  head,"  apparently
from  one of the hairless aliens, but before she could  find  out
for  sure,  she was dragged away. The objects in  the  tank,  she
said, "horrified me and made me sick and frightened me to  death"
(Howe, 1989). Later she wondered about the other tanks and  about
their contents.

The William Moore/MJ-12 Maze: Late in the summer of 1979  William
L.  Moore  had left a teaching job in a small Minnesota  town  to
relocate  in Arizona, where he hoped to pursue a writing  career.
Moore was deeply involved in the investigation of an apparent UFO
crash  in New Mexico in July 1947, a case he and Charles  Berlitz
would  recount in their The Roswell Incident the following  year.
After  his move to the Southwest Moore became close to Coral  and
James  Lorenzen  of the Aerial  Phenomena  Research  Organization
(APRO) and in due course Moore was asked to join the APRO  board.
The  Lorenzens told him about Bennewitz's claims. Bennewitz,  Jim
Lorenzen thought, was "prone to make great leaps of logic on  the
basis of incomplete data" (Moore, 1989a).

 The Roswell Incident was published in the summer of 1980 and  in
September  a  debate on UFOs at the Smithsonian  Institution  was
scheduled  to take place. Moore set off from his Arizona home  to
Washington, D.C., to attend the debate and along the way promoted
his  new  book  on radio and television shows.  According  to  an
account he would give seven years later, an extraordinary  series
of events began while he was on this trip.

 He had done a radio show in Omaha and was in the station  lobby,
suitcase in hand, on his way to catch a plane which was to  leave
within the hour when a receptionist asked if he was Mr. Moore. He
had  a  phone  call. The caller was a man who  claimed  to  be  a
colonel at nearby Offutt AFB, He said, "We think you're the  only
one  we've heard who seems to know what he's talking  about."  He
asked  if  he and Moore could meet and discuss  matters  further.
Moore  said  that  since  he was leaving town  in  the  next  few
minutes,  that  would not be possible, though he wrote  down  the
man's phone number.

 Moore went on to Washington. On September 8, on his way back, he
did a radio show in Albuquerque. On the way out of the studio the
receptionist  told  him  he had a phone  call.  The  caller,  who
identified  himself  as an individual from nearby  Kirtland  AFB,
said,  "We think you're the only one we've heard about who  seems
to know what he's talking about." Moore said, "Where have I heard
that before?"

 Soon afterwards Moore and the individual he would call  "Falcon"
met  at a local restaurant. Falcon, later alleged (though  denied
by  Moore) to be U.S. Air Force Sgt. Richard Doty, said he  would
be  wearing a red tie. This first meeting would initiate a  long-
running  relationship  between  Moore (and,  beginning  in  1982,
partner Jaime Shandera) and 10 members of a shadowy group said to
be connected with military intelligence and to be opposed to  the
continuation  of  the UFO cover-up. The story that  emerged  from
this interaction goes like this:

 The  first  UFO crash, involving bodies of  small,  gray-skinned
humanoids,  occurred  near  Corona,  New  Mexico,  in  1947  (the
"Roswell  incident"). Two years later a humanoid was found  alive
and  it  was housed at Los Alamos until its death  in  the  early
1950s.  It  was called EBE,  after  "extraterrestrial  biological
entity," and it was the first of three the U.S. government  would
have  in its custody between then and now. An Air Force  captain,
now  a retired colonel, was EBE-1's constant companion. At  first
communication with it was almost impossible; then a speech device
which enabled the being to speak a sort of English was  implanted
in  its  throat. It turned out that EBE-1, the  equivalent  of  a
mechanic  on a spaceship, related what it knew of the nature  and
purpose of the visitation.

 In  response  to the Roswell incident, MJ-12-the MJ  stands  for
"Majestic"--as  set  up  by executive order  of  President  Harry
Truman  on September 24, 1947. MJ-12 operates as a  policy-making
body.  Project  Aquarius is an umbrella group in  which  all  the
various compartments dealing with ET-related issues perform their
various    functions.   Project   Sigma    conducts    electronic
communication  with  the extraterrestrials, part  of  an  ongoing
contact  project run through the National Security  Agency  since
1964,  following a landing at Holloman AFB in late April of  that
year.

 Nine extraterrestrial races are visiting the earth. One of these
races,   little  gray-skinned  people  from  the   third   planet
surrounding  Zeta Reticuli, have been here for 25,000  years  and
influenced  the direction of human evolution. They also  help  in
the shaping of our religious beliefs. Some important  individuals
within the cover-up want it to end and are preparing the American
people for the reality of the alien presence through the  vehicle
of popular entertainment, including the films Close Encounters of
the Third Kind, whose climax is a thinly-disguised version of the
Holloman landing, and ET.

 At CIA headquarters in Langley, Virginia, there is a thick  book
called  "The  Bible," a compilation of all  the  various  project
reports.

 According  to his own account, which he would not  relate  until
1989,   Moore  cooperated  with  his   AFOSI   sources-including,
prominently,  Richard  Doty-and provided them  with  information.
They  informed  him  that  there  was  considerable  interest  in
Bennewitz.  Moore was made to understand that as his part of  the
bargain  he was to spy on Bennewitz and also on APRO as well  as,
in Moore's words, "to a lesser extent, several other individuals"
(Moore, 1989a). He learned that several government agencies  were
interested in Bennewitz's activities and they wanted to  inundate
him   with  false  information-disinformation,  in   intelligence
parlance-to  confuse  him.  Moore says he was not  one  of  those
providing  the disinformation, but he knew some of those  of  who
were, such as Doty.

 Bennewitz  on  his own had already begun to  devise  a  paranoid
interpretation of what he thought he was seeing and hearing,  and
the disinformation passed on to him built on that foundation. His
sources  told him that the U.S. government and malevolent  aliens
are in an uneasy alliance to control the planet, that the  aliens
are  killing  and mutilating not only cattle  but  human  beings,
whose organs they need to lengthen their lives, and that they are
even  eating  human  flesh. In underground  bases  at  government
installations in Nevada and New Mexico human and alien scientists
work  together on ghastly experiments, including the creation  of
soulless androids out of human and animal body parts. Aliens  are
abducting  as many as one American in 40 and  implanting  devices
which control human behavior. ClA brainwashing and other  control
techniques  are  doing  the same, turning life on  earth  into  a
nightmare  of  violence  and  irrationality.  It  was,  as  Moore
remarks,  "the  wildest  science fiction  scenario  anyone  could
possibly imagine."

 But Bennewitz believed it. He grew ever more obsessed and  tried
to  alert  prominent  persons to  the  imminent  threat,  showing
photographs  which  he held showed human-alien  activity  in  the
Kirtland area but which dispassionate observers thought  depicted
natural  rock formations and other mundane phenomena.  Eventually
Bennewitz  was  hospitalized,  but on  his  release  resumed  his
activities,  which  continue  to  this  day.  Soon  the  ghoulish
scenario  would spread into the larger UFO community  and  beyond
and  command  a small but committed band of believers.  But  that
would  not  happen  until  the late 1980s and  it  would  not  be
Bennewitz who would be responsible for it.

 In 1981 the Lorenzens received an anonymous letter from  someone
identifying  himself  as a "USAF Airman assigned  to  the  1550th
Aircrew Training and Testing Wing at Kirtland AFB." The  "airman"
said,  "On July 16, 1980, at between 10:30-10:45 A.M.,  Craig  R.
Weitzel.  ..  a  Civil Air Patrol Cadet from  Dobbins  AFB,  Ga.,
visiting  Kirtland AFB, NM, observed a dull metallic colored  UFO
flying  from  South to North near Pecos New Mexico. Pecos  has  a
secret training site for the 1550th Aircrew Training and  Testing
Wing,  Kirtland AFB, NM. WEITZEL was with ten other  individuals,
including  USAF  active  duty  airmen,  and  all  witnessed   the
sighting. WEITZEL took some pictures of the object. WEITZEL  went
closer  to  the  UFO  and observed the UFO  land  in  a  clearing
approximately 250 yds, NNW of the training area. WEITZEL observed
an  individual  dressed in a metallic suit depart the  craft  and
walk  a few feet away. The individual was outside the  craft  for
just  a few minutes. When the individual returned the craft  took
off  towards  the NW." The letter writer said he  had  been  with
Weitzel when the UFO flew overhead, but he had not been with  him
to observe the landing.

 The  letter went on to say that late on the evening of the  next
day  a tall, dark-featured, black-suited man  wearing  sunglasses
called  on Weitzel at Kirtland. The stranger claimed to  be  "Mr.
Huck" from Sandia Laboratories, a classified Department of Energy
contractor  on  the  base.  Mr. Huck told  Weitzel  he  had  seen
something  he  should not have seen, a secret aircraft  from  Los
Alamos,  and he demanded all of the photographs. Weitzel  replied
that  he  hadn't taken any, that the photographer was  an  airman
whose name he did not know. "The individual warned Weitzel not to
mention  the  sighting to anyone or Weitzel would be  in  serious
trouble,"  the  writer  went  on.  "After  the  individual   left
Weitzel[']s room, Weitzel wondered how the individual knew of the
sighting  because Weitzel didn't report the sighting  to  anyone.
Weitzel became scared after thinking of the threat the individual
made.  Weitzel  call [sic] the Kirtland AFB Security  Police  and
reported the incident to them. They referred the incident to  the
Air  Force  Office  of  Special  Investigations  (AFOSI),   which
investigates  these matters according to the security  police.  A
Mr. Dody [sic], a special agent with OSI, spoke with Weitzel  and
took  a report. Mr. Dody [sic] also obtained all the  photographs
of  the  UFO.  Dody [sic] told Weitzel he  would  look  into  the
matter. That was the last anyone heard of the incident."

 But that was not all the correspondent had to say. He added,  "I
have  every  reason  to beleive [sic] the  USAF  is  covering  up
something.  I spent a lot of time looking into this matter and  I
know  there  is more to it than the USAF will say. I  have  heard
rumors,  but serious rumors here at Kirtland that the USAF has  a
crashed UFO stored in the Manzano Storage area, which is  located
in a remote area of Kirtland AFB. This area is heavily guarded by
USAF  Security. I have spoke [sic] with two employees  of  Sandia
Laboratories,  who also store classified objects in Manzano,  and
they  told me that Sandia has examined several UFO's  during  the
last 20 years. One that crashed near Roswell NM in the late  50's
was  examined  by Sandia scientists. That craft  is  still  being
store [sic] in Manzano.

 "I have reason to beleive [sic] OSI is conducting a very  secret
investigation into UFO sightings. OSI took over when Project Blue
Book  was  closed.  I was told this by my  commander,  COL  Bruce
Purvine.  COL Purvine also told me that the investigation was  so
secret that most employees of OSI doesn't [sic] even know it. But
COL  Purvine told me that Kirtland AFB, AFOSI District 17  has  a
special secret detachment that investigates sightings around this
area.  They have also investigated the cattle mutilations in  New
Mexico."

 In  1985 investigator Benton Jamison located Craig Weitzel,  who
confirmed  that he had indeed seen a UFO in 1980 and reported  it
to  Sgt.  Doty. But his sighting, while interesting,  was  rather
less dramatic than the CE3 reported in the letter; Weitzel saw  a
silver-colored object some 10,000 to 15,000 feet overhead.  After
maneuvering  for a few minutes, he told Jamison, it  "accelerated
like you never saw anything accelerate before" (Hastings,  1985).
He also said he knew nothing of a meeting with anyone  identified
as "Mr. Huck."

 In  December  1982,  in response to  a  Freedom  of  Information
request  from  Barry Greenwood of Citizens  Against  UFO  Secrecy
(CAUS),  Air  Force Office of Special Investigations  released  a
two  page  OSI Complaint Form stamped "For  Official  Use  Only."
Dated September 8, 1980, it was titled "Kirtland AFB, NM, 8 Aug-3
Sept  80,  Alleged  Sightings of Unidentified  Aerial  Lights  in
Restricted Test Range." The document described several  sightings
of UFOs in the Manzano Weapons Storage Area, at the Coyote Canyon
section  of the Department of Defense Restricted Test Range.  One
of the reports cited was a New Mexico State Patrolman's August 10
observation  of a UFO landing. (A later check with  state  police
sources  by Larry Fawcett, a Connecticut police officer  and  UFO
investigator,  uncovered no record of such a report. The  sources
asserted  that  the absence of a report could only mean  that  no
such  incident  had ever happened.) This intriguing  document  is
signed by then OSI Special Agent Richard C. Doty.

 In  1987, after comparing three documents (the anonymous  letter
to  APRO,  the  September 8, 1980, AFOSI Complaint  Form,  and  a
purported  AFOSI  document dated August 14,  1980,  and  claiming
"frequency  jamming"  by UFOs in the Kirtland  area),  researcher
Brad  Sparks concluded that Doty had written all three.  In  1989
Moore  confirmed  that  Doty  had written  the  letter  to  APRO.
"Essentially it was 'bait,'" he says. "AFOSI knew that  Bennewitz
had close ties with APRO at the time, and they were interested in
recruiting  someone  within . . . APRO . . . who would  be  in  a
position   to  provide  them  with  feedback   on   Bennewitz'[s]
activities and communications. Since I was the APRO Board  member
in  charge of Special Investigations in 1980, the Weitzel  letter
was passed to me for action shortly after it had been  received."
According to Bruce Maccabee, Doty admitted privately that he  had
written the Ellsworth AFB document, basing it on a real  incident
which  he wanted to bring to public attention. Doty has  made  no
public comment on any of these allegations. Moore says Doty  "was
almost  certainly a part of [the Ellsworth report], but not in  a
capacity  where he would have been responsible for  creating  the
documents involved" (Moore, 1989a).

 Doty was also the source of an alleged AFOSI communication dated
November 17, 1980, and destined to become known as the  "Aquarius
document." Allegedly sent from AFOSI headquarters at Bolling  AFB
in Washington, D.C., to the AFOSI District 17 office at Kirtland,
it  mentions,  in brief and cryptic form, analyses  of  negatives
from a UFO film apparently taken the previous month. The  version
that   circulated  through  the  UFO  community  states  in   its
penultimate  paragraph:  "USAF NO LONGER PUBLICLY ACTIVE  IN  UFO
RESEARCH,  HOWEVER USAF STILL HAS INTEREST IN ALL  UFO  SIGHTINGS
OVER  USAF  INSTALLATION/TEST RANGES.  SEVERAL  OTHER  GOVERNMENT
AGENCIES,  LED  BY NASA, ACTIVELY INVESTIGATES  [sic]  LEGITIMATE
SIGHTINGS  THROUGH  COVERT  COVER....  ONE  SUCH  COVER  IS   UFO
REPORTING  CENTER,  US COAST AND GEODETIC SURVEY,  ROCKVILLE,  MD
20852, NASA FILTERS RESULTS OF SIGHTINGS TO APPROPRIATE  MILITARY
DEPARTMENTS  WITH  INTEREST  IN  THAT  PARTICULAR  SIGHTING.  THE
OFFICIAL US GOVERNMENT POLICY AND RESULTS OF PROJECT AQUARIUS  IS
[sic]  STILL  CLASSIFIED TOP SECRET WITH  NO  DISEMINATION  [sic]
OUTSIDE OFFICIAL INTELLIGENCE CHANNELS AND WITH RESTRICTED ACCESS
TO 'MJ TWELVE'."

 This  is the first mention of "MJ-12" in an  allegedly  official
government document. Moore describes it as an "example of some of
the  disinformation  produced in connection  with  the  Bennewitz
case.  The document is a retyped version of a real AFOSI  message
with  a  few  spurious additions."  Among  the  most  significant
additions,  by Moore's account, are the bogus references  to  the
U.S. Coast and Geodetic Survey and to NASA, which he says was NSA
(National Security Agency) in the original.

 According  to  Moore,  Doty  got the  document  "right  off  the
teletype"   (Moore,   1990)  and  showed  it  to   Moore   almost
immediately. Later Doty came by with what purported to be a  copy
of  it,  but  Moore noticed that it was  not  exactly  the  same;
material had been added to it. Doty said he wanted Moore to  give
the  doctored copy to Bennewitz. Reluctant to involve himself  in
the  passing  of  this dubious document, Moore sat on  it  for  a
while,  then finally worried that the sources he was  developing,
the ones who were telling him about the U.S. government's alleged
interactions with EBEs, would dry up if he did not cooperate.  So
eventually he gave the document to Bennewitz but urged him not to
publicize it. Bennewitz agreed and kept his promise.

 As of September 1982 Moore knew of three copies of the document:
the  one Bennewitz had, one Moore had in safekeeping, and one  he
had  in  his briefcase during a trip he made that month  to  meet
someone in San Francisco. He met the man in the morning and  that
afternoon  someone  broke into his car and stole  his  briefcase.
Four  months later a copy of the document showed up in the  hands
of  a New York lawyer interested in UFOs, and soon  the  document
was  circulating widely. Moore himself had little to say  on  the
subject  until he delivered a controversial and explosive  speech
to the annual conference of the Mutual UFO Network (MUFON) in Las
Vegas in 1989.

 In  late  1982,  "during," he says, "one of  the  many  friendly
conversations  I had with Richard Doty," Moore mentioned that  he
was looking into the old (and seemingly discredited) story that a
UFO had crashed in Aztec, New Mexico, in 1948. This tale was  the
subject  of Frank Scully's 1950 book Behind the  Flying  Saucers.
(Moore's long account of his investigation into the affair, which
he found to be an elaborate hoax, would appear in the 1985  MUFON
symposium  proceedings.) Doty said he had never heard  the  story
and asked for details, taking notes as Moore spoke.

 On January 10 and 11, 1983, attorney Peter Gersten, director  of
CAUS,  met with Doty in New Mexico. There were two meetings,  the
first of them also attended by Moore and San Francisco television
producer Ron Lakis, the second by Gersten alone. During the first
meeting  Doty  was guarded in his remarks. But at the  second  he
spoke openly about what ostensibly were extraordinary secrets. He
said  the Ellsworth case was the subject of an  investigation  by
AFOSI  and the FBI; nuclear weapons were involved.  The  National
Enquirer investigation, which had concluded the story was  bogus,
was  "amateurish." At least two civilians, a farmer and a  deputy
sheriff,  had  been involved, but were warned not  to  talk.  The
government  knows why UFOs appear in certain places,  Doty  said,
but  he  would not elaborate. He added, however, that  "beyond  a
shadow of a doubt they're extraterrestrial" (Greenwood, 1988) and
from 50 light years from the earth. He knew of at least three UFO
crashes, the Roswell incident and two others, one from the 1950s,
the   other  from  the  196Os.  Bodies  had  been  recovered.   A
spectacular incident, much like the one depicted in the ending of
the  film Close Encounters of the Third Kind, took place in  1966
The  NSA was involved in communications  with  extraterrestrials;
the   effort   is  called  Project  Aquarius.  Inside   the   UFO
organizations  government  moles are collecting  information  and
spreading  disinformation. Doty discussed the  Aquarius  document
and said the really important documents are impossible to get out
of  the appropriate files. Some are protected in such a way  that
they  will  disintegrate within five seconds'  exposure  to  air.
These  documents tell of agreements between the  U.S.  government
and extraterrestrials under which the latter are free to  conduct
animal  mutilations  (especially  of cattle) and  to  land  at  a
certain  base,  in exchange for information  about  advanced  UFO
technology. Doty also claimed that via popular entertainment  the
American  people  are  being prepared to accept  the  reality  of
visitation by benevolent beings from other worlds.

 At one point in the conversation Doty asked Gersten, "How do you
know  that I'm not here to either give you misinformation  or  to
give  you information which is part of the  programming,  knowing
you are going to go out and spread it around?" (Howe, 1989).

 In  the  1970s, as director of special projects for  the  Denver
CBS-TV   affiliate,   Linda   Moulton  Howe   had   produced   12
documentaries,   most   of   them   dealing   with    scientific,
environmental  and health issues. But the one that attracted  the
most  attention was Strange Harvest, which dealt with  the  then-
widespread  reports that cattle in Western and Midwestern  states
were  being  killed and mutilated by persons or  forces  unknown.
Most  veterinary  pathologists  said the animals  were  dying  of
unknown  causes.  Farmers,  ranchers  and  some   law-enforcement
officers thought the deaths were mysterious. Some even speculated
that   extraterrestrials  were  responsible.   This   possibility
intrigued Howe, who had a lifelong interest in UFOs, and  Strange
Harvest argues for a UFO mutilation link.

 In the fall of 1982, as Howe was working on a documentary on  an
unrelated matter, she got a call from Home Box Office (HBO).  The
caller  said  the  HBO people had  been  impressed  with  Strange
Harvest  and wanted to know if Howe would do a film on  UFOs.  In
March 1983 she went to New York to sign a contract with HBO for a
show to be titled UFOs-The ET Factor.

 The  evening  before her meeting with the HBO people,  Howe  had
dinner  with Gersten and science writer Patrick  Huyghe.  Gersten
told  Howe  that  he had met with Sgt. Doty, an  AFOSI  agent  at
Kirtland AFB, and perhaps Doty would be willing to talk on camera
or  in  some  other  helpful  capacity  about  the  incident   at
Ellsworth. Gersten would call him and ask if he would be  willing
to meet with Howe.

 Subsequently   arrangements  were  made  for  Howe  to  fly   to
Albuquerque  on April 9. Doty would meet her at the airport.  But
when she arrived that morning, no one was waiting. She called his
home.  A  small boy answered and said his father was  not  there.
Howe  then phoned Jerry Miller, Chief of Reality Weapons  Testing
at Kirtland and a former Blue Book investigator. (He is mentioned
in  the  October  28,  1980,  "Multipurpose  Internal  OSI  Form"
reporting on Doty and Miller's meeting with Bennewitz.) She  knew
Miller  from  an  earlier telephone conversation,  when  she  had
called  to ask him about Bennewitz's claims, in which she  had  a
considerable  interest.  Miller  asked  for  a  copy  of  Strange
Harvest.  Later he had given Howe his home phone number and  said
to  contact him if she ever found herself in Albuquerque. So  she
called and asked if he would pick her up at the airport.

 Miller  drove  Howe to his house. On the way Howe  asked  him  a
number  of  questions but got little in the way of  answers.  One
question  he  did  not  answer was whether  he  is  the  "Miller"
mentioned  in  the Aquarius document. When they got  to  Miller's
residence, Miller called Doty at his home, and Doty arrived a few
minutes  later, responding aggressively to Howe's question  about
where  he  had been. He claimed to have been at the  airport  all
along;  where had she been? "Perhaps," Howe would write, "he  had
decided he didn't want to go through with the meeting, and it was
acceptable in his world to leave me stranded at the airport-until
Jerry Miller called his house" (Howe, 1989).

 On  the way to Kirtland, Howe asked Doty, whose manner  remained
both defiant and nervous, if he knew anything about the  Holloman
landing. Doty said it happened but that Robert Emenegger had  the
date wrong; it was not May 1971 but April 25, 1964-12 Hours after
a much-publicized CE3 reported by Socorro, New Mexico,  policeman
Lonnie  Zamora. (Zamora said he had seen an egg-shaped object  on
the ground. Standing near it were two child-sized beings in white
suits.)  Military  and scientific personnel at the  base  knew  a
landing  was coming, but "someone blew the time and  coordinates"
and  an "advance military scout ship" had come down at the  wrong
time  and  place,  to  be observed by  Zamora.  When  three  UFOs
appeared  at Holloman at six o'clock the following  morning,  one
landed  while the other two hovered overhead. During the  meeting
between  the  UFO beings and a government  party,  the  preserved
bodies of dead aliens had been given to the aliens , who in  turn
had  returned  something  unspecified.  Five  ground  and  aerial
cameras recorded this event.

 At  the  Kirtland  gate  Doty waved to the  guard  and  was  let
through. They went to a small white and gray building. Doty  took
her  to  what he described as "my - boss'  office."  Doty  seemed
unwilling  to discuss the Ellsworth case, the  ostensible  reason
for the interview, but had much to say about other matters. First
he asked Howe to move from the chair on which she was sitting  to
another in the middle of the room. Howe surmised that this was to
facilitate the surreptitious recording of their conversation, but
Doty said only, "Eyes can see through windows."

 "My  superiors  have  asked me to show you this,"  he  said.  He
produced a brown envelope he had taken from a drawer in the  desk
at  which  he was sitting and withdrew several  sheets  of  white
paper.  As he handed them to Howe, he warned her that they  could
not be copied; all she could do was read them in his presence and
ask questions.

 The document gave no indication anywhere as to which government,
military  or scientific agency (if any) had prepared the  report,
titled A Briefing Paper for the President of the United States on
the  Subject of Unidentified Flying Vehicles. The title  did  not
specify which President it had in mind, nor did the document list
a date (so far as Howe recalls today) which would have linked  it
to a particular administration.


  The first paragraph, written--as was everything that followed--
in  what Howe characterizes as "dry bureaucratese," listed  dates
and  locations  of  crashes  and retrievals  of  UFOs  and  their
occupants. The latter were invariably described as 3 1/2 to  four
feet tall, gray-skinned and hairless, with oversized heads, large
eyes  and  no noses. It was now known, the document stated  on  a
subsequent  page, that these beings, from a nearby solar  system,
have  been  here  for many thousands of  years.  Through  genetic
manipulation they influenced the course of human evolution and in
a  sense  created us. They had also helped  shape  our  religious
beliefs.

 The  July  1947 Roswell crash was mentioned;  so,  however,  was
another  one at Roswell in 1949. Investigators at the site  found
five  bodies and one living alien, who was taken to a safe  house
at  the Los Alamos National Laboratory north of Albuquerque.  The
aliens,    small   gray-skinned   humanoids,   were   known    as
"extraterrestrial  biological  entities" and the living  one  was
called "EBE" (ee-buh). EBE was befriended (if that was the  word)
by an Air Force officer, but the being died of unknown causes  on
June 18, 1952. (EBE's friend, by 1964 a colonel, was among  those
who  were  there  to greet the aliens who  landed  at  Holloman.)
Subsequently,  it would be referred to as EBE-1, since  in  later
years  another  such being, EBE-2, would take up residence  in  a
safe house. After that, a third, EBE-3, appeared on the scene and
was now living in secret at an American base.

 The  briefing  paper said other crashes had  occurred  one  near
Kingman, Arizona, another just south of Texas in northern Mexico.
It  also mentioned the Aztec crash- The wreckage and  bodies  had
been  removed  to such facilities as Los  Alamos  laboratory  and
Wright-Patterson  AFB.  A number of  highly  classified  projects
dealt with these materials. They included Snowbird (research  and
development  from the study of an intact spacecraft left  by  the
aliens  as  a gift) and Aquarius (the  umbrella  operation  under
which the research and contact efforts were coordinated). Project
Sigma was the ongoing electronic communications effort. There was
also   a   defunct  project  Garnet,  intended   to   investigate
extraterrestrial  influence on human evolution. According to  the
document, extraterrestrials have appeared at various intervals in
human history-25,000, 15,000, 5000 and 2500 years ago as well  as
now--to manipulate human and other DNA.

 One   paragraph   stated  briefly,  "Two  thousand   years   ago
extraterrestrials  created a being" who was placed here to  teach
peace  and love. Elsewhere a passing mention was made of  another
group of EBEs, called the "Talls."

 The paper said Project Blue Book had existed solely to take heat
off  the  Air  Force and to draw attention  away  from  the  real
projects.  Doty mentioned an "MJ-12," explaining that "MJ"  stood
for  "Majority."  It was a policy-making  body  whose  membership
consisted of 12 very high-ranking government scientists, military
officers and intelligence officials. These were the men who  made
the decisions governing the cover-up and the contacts.

 Doty  said  Howe  would be given thousands of feet  of  film  of
crashed  discs,  bodies,  EBE-1  and  the  Holloman  landing  and
meeting.  She could use this material in her documentary to  tell
the  story of how U.S. officials learned that the earth is  being
visited and what they have done about it. "We want you to do  the
film," Howe quotes him as saying.

 When Howe asked why she, not the New York Times, the  Washington
Post  or  60  Minutes,  was  getting  this,  the  story  of   the
millennium, Doty replied bluntly that an individual media  person
is  easier to manipulate and discredit than a major  organization
with  expensive attorneys. He said that another plan  to  release
the  information, through Emenegger and Sandler, had been  halted
because political conditions were not right.

 Over  the  next weeks Howe had a number of  phone  conversations
with Doty, mostly about technical problems related to  converting
old film to videotape. She spoke on several occasions with  three
other men but did not meet them personally.

 Doty  suggested that eventually she might be allowed to film  an
interview with EBE-3. But the current film project was to have  a
historical  emphasis; it would deal with events between 1949  and
1964. If at some point she did meet EBE-3, however, there was  no
way she could prepare herself for the "shock and fear" of meeting
an alien being.

 Howe,  of course, had informed her HBO contacts, Jean  Abounader
and   her  superior  Bridgett  Potter,  of  these   extraordinary
developments. Howe urged them to prepare themselves, legally  and
otherwise,  for  the repercussions that would surely  follow  the
release  of the film. The HBO people told her she would have  to
secure  a  letter  of  intent from the  U.S.  government  with  a
legally-binding commitment to release the promised film  footage.
When  Howe called Doty about it, he said, "I'll work on  it."  He
said he would mail the letter directly to HBO.

 Then  HBO  told her it would not authorize funds  for  the  film
production until all the evidence was in hand and, as Potter  put
it,  Howe had the "President, Secretary of Defense, Secretary  of
State and Joint Chiefs of Staff to back it up" (Howe, 1989).  But
proceed  anyway, Howe was told. Now she was furious at  both  HBO
and Doty.

----- Continued in EBE.DOC part 2 --------------------------------

Don


--
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: [e-mail]  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona  KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?


Article 7348 of alt.conspiracy:
Path: lassie!voder!apple!olivea!uunet!iWarp.intel.com|ogicse!usenet.coe.montana.edu!masscomp!peora!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Subject: FILE: EBE.DOC part 2 - 49K
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Oct 91 22:19:02 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 910
Xref: lassie alt.conspiracy:7348 sci.skeptic:16355







-----EBE.DOC part 2 (conclusion) -------------------------------


When  she called him at the base, he remarked that he  had  good
news  and  bad news. She and a small crew would soon be  able  to
interview  the  retired colonel (then a captain)  who  had  spent
three  years with EBE-1. The bad news was that it would be  three
months  before  the thousands of feet of film of  EBE-1  and  the
Holloman  landing/contact would be available.  Meanwhile,  before
she  could  screen  the footage, Howe would have  to  sign  three
security  oaths  and undergo a background check. She  would  also
have  to supply photographs of all the technical  assistants  who
would accompany her to the interview.

 The  interview was repeatedly set up and canceled. Then in  June
Doty called to say he was officially out of the project. This was
a blow because Doty was the only one she could call. She did  not
know  how to get in touch with the others and always had to  wait
for them to contact her.

 By  October  the  contacts had decreased.  The  same  month  her
contract  with  HBO  expired. All she had was  the  name  of  the
Washington  contact.  In March 1984 this  individual  called  her
office  three  times, although she was out of town working  on  a
non-UFO story at the time. "Upon returning home," she writes,  "I
learned  the  man  was contacting me to explain  there  would  be
further  delays  in  the film project  after  the  November  1984
election" (Howe, 1989).

 For  Howe  that was the end of the matter, except  for  a  brief
sequel.  On March 5, 1988, Doty wrote ufologist Larry W.  Bryant,
who  had unsuccessfully sought access to Doty's military  records
through  the Freedom of Information Act, and denied that  he  had
ever  discussed  government UFO secrets or  promised  footage  of
crashed  discs, bodies and live EBEs. Howe responded by making  a
sworn  statement  about the meeting an producing  copies  of  her
correspondence from the period with both Doty and HBO.


 In 1989 Moore said that "in early 1983 I became aware that  Rick
[Doty] was involved with a team of several others, including  one
fellow  from  Denver  that I knew of and at  least  one  who  was
working  out  of  Washington,  D.C.,  in  playing  an   elaborate
disinformation scheme against a prominent UfO researcher who,  at
the  time,  had close connections with a  major  television  film
company interested in doing a UFO documentary." He was  referring
to  Howe, of course. The episode was a counterintelligence  sting
operation,  part  of  the "wall of  disinformation"  intended  to
"confuse"  the Bennewitz issue and to "call his credibility  into
question."  Because  of  Howe's  interest  in  Bennewitz's  work,
according  to  Moore, "certain elements within  the  intelligence
community were concerned that the story of his having intercepted
low  frequency electromagnetic emissions from the  Coyote  Canyon
area  of  the Kirtland/Sandia complex would end up as part  of  a
feature film. Since this in turn might influence others (possibly
even  the Russians) to attempt similar experiments, someone in  a
control  position apparently felt it had to be stopped before  it
got out of hand." In his observation, Moore said, "the government
seemed hell bent on severing the ties that existed between [Howe]
and [HBO]" (Moore, 1989b).

 Doty's assertion that Howe had misrepresented their meeting  was
not  to  be taken seriously, according to Moore, since  Doty  was
bound by a security oath and could not discuss the matter  freely
Moore  said that the Aztec crash, known beyond  reasonable  doubt
never  to  have  occurred, was something Doty had  added  to  the
document after learning from Moore of his recent investigation of
the hoax.

 In December 1984, in the midst of continuing contact with  their
own  sources  (Doty  and a number of others) who  claimed  to  be
leaking  the  secret  of the cover-up,  Moore's  associate  Jaime
Shandera  received a roll of 35mm film containing, it turned  out
what  purported to be a briefing paper dated November  18,  1952,
and  intended  for  president-elect  Eisenhower.  The   purported
author, Adm. Roscoe H. Hillenkoetter, reported that an "Operation
Majestic-12,"  consisting  of a dozen  top  scientists,  military
officers  and  intelligence  specialists,  had  been  set  up  by
presidential  order on September 24, 1947, to study  the  Roswell
remains  and  the four humanoid bodies that  had  been  recovered
nearby. The document report that the team directed by MJ12 member
and  physiologist  Detlev Bronk "has suggested the  term  'Extra-
terrestrial  Biological Entities', or 'EBEs', be adopted  as  the
standard term of reference for these creatures until such time as
a more definitive designation can be agreed upon." Brief  mention
is also made of a December 6, 1950, crash along the  Texas-Mexico
border.   Nothing  is  said,  however,  about  live   aliens   or
communications with them.

 In  July  1985  Moore and Shandera, acting on  tips  from  their
sources,  traveled  to  Washington and spent  a  few  days  going
through  recently  declassified documents in  Record  Group  341,
including  Top  Secret  Air Force intelligence  files  from  USAF
Headquarters. In the 126th box whose contents they examined, they
found  a  brief  memo dated July 14, 1954,  from  Robert  Cutler,
Special  Assistant to the President, to Gen. Nathan  Twining.  It
says  "The  president  has decided that  the  MJ-12/SSP  [Special
Studies  Project] briefing should take place during  the  already
scheduled White House meeting of July 16 rather than following it
as  previously  intended.  More  precise  arrangements  will   be
explained to you upon your arrival. Your concurrence in the above
change of arrangements is assumed" (Friedman, 1987).

 The   Cutler/Twining  memo,  as  it  would  be  called  in   the
controversies  that  erupted  after  Moore  released  the   MJ-12
document to the world in the spring of 1987, is the only official
document-not  to  be  confused with such  disputed  ones  as  the
November  17, 1980, Aquarius document-to mention MJ-12.  (Several
critics   of  the  MJ-12  affair  have  questioned   the   memo's
authenticity  as well, but so far without  unambiguous  success.)
The  memo does not, of course, say what the MJ12 Special  Studies
Project was.

MJ-12  Goes  Public: Just prior to Moore's release of  the  MJ-12
briefing  paper,  another copy was leaked  to  British  ufologist
Timothy Good, who took his copy to the press. The first newspaper
article  on it appeared in the London Observer of May  31,  1987,
and  soon  it was the subject of pieces in the  New  York  Times,
Washington  Post and ABC-TV's Nightline. It was  also  denounced,
not  altogether persuasively, both by professional debunkers  and
by  many  ufologists. The dispute would rage  without  resolution
well  into 1989, when critics discovered that President  Truman's
signature on the September 24, 1947, executive order (appended to
the  briefing  paper)  was  exactly  like  his  signature  on  an
undisputed, UFO-unrelated October 1, 1947, letter to his  science
adviser  (and  supposed  MJ-12  member)  Vannevar  Bush.  To  all
appearances  a  forger had appended a real signature  to  a  fake
letter.   The   MJ-12  document  began  to  look   like   another
disinformation scheme.

 Although acutely aware of the mass of disinformation circulating
throughout  the UFO community, Moore remained convinced  that  at
least some of the information his own sources were giving him was
authentic. In 1988 he provided two of his sources, "Falcon" (Sgt.
Doty according to some) and "Condor" (later claimed to be  former
U.S. Air Force Capt. Robert Collins), to a television  production
company.  (Moore  and  Shandera had given them  avian  names  and
called the sources collectively "the birds.") UFO Cover-up . .  .
Live, a two-hour program, aired in October 1988, with Falcon  and
Condor,  their faces shaded, their voices altered,  relating  the
same  tales with which they had regaled Moore and  Shandera.  The
show,  almost universally judged a laughable  embarrassment,  was
most  remembered for the informants' statements that  the  aliens
favored  ancient Tibetan music and strawberry ice cream.  Critics
found the latter allegation especially hilarious.


Lear's  Conspiracy Theory: Events on the UFO scene were taking  a
yet  more bizarre turn that same year as even wilder tales  began
to circulate. The first to tell them was John Lear, a pilot  with
a background in the CIA and the estranged son of aviation  legend
William  P. Lear. Lear had surfaced two or three  years  earlier,
but  aside  from  his  famous  father  there  seemed  little   to
distinguish  him  from  any of hundreds of other  UFO  buffs  who
subscribe  to  the  field's  publications  and  show  up  at  its
conferences.  But then he started claiming that  unnamed  sources
had  told  him of extraordinary events which made those  told  by
Doty   and  the  birds  sound  like  bland  and   inconsequential
anecdotes.

 According  to Lear, not just a few but dozens of flying  saucers
had  crashed over the years. In 1962 the U.S. government  started
Project  Redlight to find a way to fly the recovered craft,  some
relatively  intact. A similar project exists even now and is  run
out  of  supersecret  military  installation;  one  is  Area   51
(specifically  at a facility called S4) at the Nevada  Test  Site
and  the  other is set up near Dulce, New  Mexico.  These  areas,
unfortunately,  may  no  longer  be  under  the  control  of  the
government  or  even  of the human race. In  the  late  1960s  an
official agency so secret that not even the President may know of
it  had  made  an  agreement with the  aliens.  In  exchange  for
extraterrestrial  technology the secret government  would  permit
(or  at least not interfere with) a limited number of  abductions
of  human beings; the aliens, however, were to provide a list  of
those they planned to kidnap.

 All  went  relatively  well for a few years. Then  in  1973  the
government  discovered that thousands of persons who were not  on
the alien's list were being abducted. The resulting tensions  led
to  an  altercation  in 1978 or 1979. The aliens  held  and  then
killed  44  top  scientists as well as a number  of  Delta  force
troops  who had tried to free them. Ever since, frantic  efforts,
of  which the Strategic Defense Initiative ("Star Wars")  is  the
most  visible manifestation, have been made to develop a  defense
against the extraterrestrials, who are busy putting implants into
abductees  (as  many  as one in 10 Americans)  to  control  their
behavior.  At some time in the near future these people  will  be
used  for some unknown, apparently sinister, alien purpose.  Even
worse  than  all this, though, is the aliens' interest  in  Human
flesh. Sex and other organs are taken from both human beings  and
cattle  and  used  to create androids in giant  vats  located  in
underground   laboratories   at   Area   51   and   Dulce.    The
extraterrestrials,  from  an  ancient race near the  end  of  its
evolution,  also use materials from human body parts as a  method
of biological rejuvenation. ("In order to sustain themselves," he
said, "they use an enzyme or hormonal secretion obtained from the
tissue that they extract from humans and animals. The  secretions
are then mixed with hydrogen peroxide and applied on the skin  by
spreading  or dipping parts of their bodies in the solution.  The
body  absorbs the solution, then excretes the waste back  through
the skin" [Berk and Renzi, 1988].)

 One  of Lear's major sources was Bennewitz, who had first  heard
these scary stories from AFOSI personnel at Kirtland in the early
1980s. By this time Bennewitz had become something of a guru to a
small  group  of  UFO enthusiasts, Linda  Howe  among  them,  who
believed  extraterrestrials  were mutilating cattle  and  had  no
trouble  believing they might do the same thing to  people.  Also
Lear,  whose political views are far to the right of center,  was
linking  his  UFO  beliefs  with  conspiracy  theories  about   a
malevolent secret American government which was attempting to use
the  aliens  for its own purposes, including enslavement  of  the
world's  people  through drug addiction. A considerable  body  of
rightwing conspiracy literature, some with barely-concealed anti-
Semitic  overtones, was making similar charges. Lear himself  was
not anti-Semitic, but he did share conspiracy beliefs with  those
who were.

 Another  of  his claimed sources was an unnamed  physicist  who,
Lear  claimed, had actually worked at S4. To the many  ufologists
who  rejected Lear's stories as paranoid, lunatic  or  fabricated
(though  not by the patently-sincere Lear), there was  widespread
skepticism  about this physicist's existence. It turned out  that
he did indeed exist. His name is Robert Lazar, who, according  to
a  story  broken  by reporter George Knapp  on  KLAS-TV,  the  ABC
affiliate  in Las Vegas, on November 11 and 13, 1989,  claims  to
have worked on alien technology projects at Area 51. Lazar, whose
story  is  being investigated by both ufologists  and  mainstream
journalists,  has  not endorsed Lear's claims  about  human-alien
treaties,  man-eating  ETs or any of the rest and  has  distanced
himself from Lear and his associates. His claims, while fantastic
by most standards, are modest next to Lears.

Cooper's Conspiracy Theory: Soon Lear was joined by someone  with
an  even  bigger  supply of fabulous yarns:  one  Milton  William
Cooper. Cooper surfaced on December 18, 1988, when his account of
the  fantastic  secrets he learned while a  Naval  petty  officer
appeared  on a computer network subscribed to by  ufologists  and
others interested in anomalous phenomena. Cooper said that  while
working  as  a quartermaster with an intelligence team  for  Adm.


Bernard  Clarey, Commander in Chief of the Pacific Meet,  in  the
early  1970s he saw two documents, Project Grudge Special  Report
13 and a Majority briefing. (In conventional UFO history,  Grudge
was  the  second public Air Force UFO  project,  superseding  the
original Sign, in early 1949 and lasting until late 1951, when it
was  renamed  Blue Book. Whereas Sign investigators at  one  time
concluded UFOs were of extraterrestrial origin--a conclusion  the
Air  force  leadership found unacceptable--Grudge,  as  its  name
suggests coincidentally or otherwise, was known for its hostility
to the idea of UFOs and for its eagerness to assign  conventional
explanations,  warranted  or otherwise, to the  sighting  reports
that came its way.) Cooper's account of what was in these reports
is  much  like  the by-now familiar  story  of  crashes,  bodies,
contacts and projects, with some elaborations. Moreover, he  said
the  aliens  were called "ALFs" (which as any  television  viewer
knows,  stands for Alien Life forms) and the "M" in MJ-12 is  for
Majority not Majestic. Later he would say he had seen photographs
of aliens, including a type he called the "big-nosed  grays"-like
those  that  supposedly landed at Holloman in 1964 or  1971.  The
U.S.  government  was in contact with them  and  alien-technology
projects were going on at Area 51.

 If  this sounded like a rehash of Moore and Lear, that was  only
because  Cooper  had yet to pull out all the stops.  On  May  23,
1989,  Cooper  produced  a 25-page  document  titled  The  Secret
Government:  The  Origin,  Identity  And  Purpose  of  MJ-12.  He
presented  it  as a lecture in Las Vegas a few  weeks  later.  In
Cooper's version of the evolving legend, the "secret government,"
an  unscrupulous  group  of covert  CIA  and  other  intelligence
operatives who keep many of their activities sealed from even the
President's  knowledge, runs the country. One of its  first  acts
was  to murder one-time Secretary of Defense (and  alleged  early
MJ-12  member)  James Forrestal the death was made to  look  like
suicide-because  he  threatened  to  expose  the  UFO   cover-up.
Nonetheless,  President  Truman, fearing an invasion  from  outer
space, kept other nations, including the Soviet Union, abreast of
developments. But keeping all this secret was a real problem,  so
an  international  secret  society known  as  the  Bilderbergers,
headquartered in Geneva, Switzerland, was formed. Soon it  became
a  secret world government and "now controls everything,"  Cooper
said.

 All the while flying saucers were dropping like flies out of the
heavens.  In  1953  there were 10 crashes in  the  United  States
alone.  Also  that  year, astronomers  observed  huge  spaceships
heading  toward the earth and in time entering into orbit  around
the   equator.   Project   Plato  was   established   to   effect
communication with these new aliens. One of the ships landed  and
a  face-to-face  meeting  took place, and  plans  for  diplomatic
relations  were  laid. Meanwhile a race of  human-looking  aliens
warned  the U.S. government that the new visitors were not to  be
trusted  and  that  if  the government got  rid  of  its  nuclear
weapons,  the  human  aliens  would  help  us  in  our  spiritual
development,  which  would  keep  us  from  destroying  ourselves
through wars and environmental pollution. The government rejected
these overtures.

 The big-nosed grays, the ones who had been orbiting the equator,
landed  again, this time at Holloman AFB, in 1954 and reached  an
agreement with the U.S. government. These beings stated that they
were from a dying planet that orbits Betelguese. At some point in
the  not too distant future, they said, they would have to  leave
there  for good. A second meeting took place not long  afterwards
at Edwards AFB in California. This time President Eisenhower  was
there  to  sign  a  formal treaty and to  meet  the  first  alien
ambassador,  "His Omnipotent Highness Krlll,"  pronounced  Krill.
He, in common with his fellow space travelers, wore a  trilateral
insignia  on  his  uniform;  the  same  design  appears  on   all
Betelguese spacecraft.

 According  to  Cooper's account, the  treaty's  provisions  were
these: Neither side would interfere in the affairs of the  other.
The aliens would abduct humans from time to time and would return
them  unharmed, with no memory of the event. It would  provide  a
list of names of those it was going to take. The U.S.  government
would  keep  the aliens' presence a secret and it  would  receive
advanced  technology from them. The two sides would  exchange  16
individuals  each for the purpose of learning from  and  teaching
each  other. The aliens would stay on earth and the humans  would
go  to the other planet, then return after a specified period  of
time.  The two sides would jointly occupy huge underground  bases
which would be constructed at hidden locations in the Southwest.

 (It  should be noted that the people listed as members of  MJ-12
are  largely  from  the  Council on  Foreign  Relations  and  the
Trilateral Commission. These organizations play a prominent  role
in conspiracy theories of the far right. In a book on the subject
George  Johnson  writes, "After the Holocaust of  World  War  II,
anti-Semitic conspiracy theories became repugnant to all but  the
fringe of the American right. Populist fears of the power of  the
rich  became  focused  instead  on  organizations  that   promote
international capitalism, such as the Trilateral Commission,  the
Council  on Foreign Relations, and the Bilderbergers, a group  of
world  leaders  and businesspeople who held one  of  their  early
conferences on international relations at the Bilderberg Hotel in
the  Netherlands"  [Johnson,  1983].  According  to  Cooper,  the
trilateral emblem is taken directly from the alien flag. He  adds
that  under Presidents Nixon, Ford and Carter MJ-12 became  known
as  the  50  Committee. Under Reagan it  was  renamed  the  PI-40
Committee.)


 By 1955, during the Eisenhower years, Cooper charged,  officials
learned for certain what they had already begun to suspect a year
earlier: that the aliens had broken the treaty before the ink  on
it  had time to dry. They were killing and mutilating both  human
beings  and  animals,  failing  to  supply  a  complete  list  of
abductees, and not returning some of those they had taken. On top
of  that,  they were conspiring with  the  Soviets,  manipulating
society  through  occultism,  witchcraft,  religion  and   secret
organizations.  Eisenhower prepared a secret executive memo,  NSC
5411,  ordering  a  study group of 35  top  members  (the  "Jason
Society")  associated  with the Council on Foreign  Relations  to
"examine  aIl  the  facts,  evidence,  lies,  and  deception  and
discover the truth of the alien question" (Cooper, 1989). Because
the  resulting meetings were held at Quantico Marine  Base,  they
were  called the Quantico meetings. Those participating  included
Edward  Teller, Zbigniew Brzezinski, Henry Kissinger  and  Nelson
Rockefeller.

 The  group  decided  that  the  danger  to  established  social,
economic, religious and political institutions was so grave  that
no one must know about the aliens, not even Congress. That  meant
that  alternative sources of funding would have to be  found.  It
also concluded that the aliens were using human organs and tissue
to replenish their deteriorating genetic structure.

 Further, according to Cooper, overtures were made to the  Soviet
Union and other nations so that all the earth could join together
to  deal with the alien menace. Research into  sophisticated  new
weapons  systems commenced. Intelligence sources  penetrated  the
Vatican  hoping to learn the Fatima prophecy which had been  kept
secret  ever  since  1917.  It was  suspected  that  the  Fatima,
Portugal,  "miracle" was an episode of alien manipulation. As  it
turned out, the prophecy stated that in 1992 a child would  unite
the  world under the banner of a false religion. By  1995  people
would  figure  out that he was the Anti-Christ.  That  same  year
World  War  III  would begin when an  alliance  of  Arab  nations
invaded Israel. This would lead to nuclear war in 1999. The  next
four  years would see horrible death and suffering all  over  the
planet. Christ would return in 2011.

 When confronted about this, claimed Cooper, the aliens  candidly
acknowledged it was true. They knew it because they had  traveled
into  the future via time machine and observed it with their  own
eyes.   They   added  that  they  created  us   through   genetic
manipulation. Later the Americans and the Soviets also  developed
time travel and confirmed the Fatima/ET vision of the future.

 In  1957 the Jason group met again, by order of  Eisenhower,  to
decide  what to do. It came up with three alternatives:  (l)  Use
nuclear bombs to blow holes in the stratosphere so that pollution
could  escape  into space. (2) Build a huge  network  of  tunnels
under the earth and save enough human beings of varying cultures,
occupations and talents so that the race could reemerge after the
nuclear  and environmental catastrophes to come. Everybody  else-
i.e.,  the  rest  of  humanity--would  be  left  on  the  surface
presumably to die. (3) Employ alien and terrestrial technology to
leave  earth  and colonize the moon (code name "Adam")  and  Mars
("Eve").  The  first alternative was deemed impractical,  so  the
Americans  and  the  Soviets started working on  the  other  two.
Meanwhile  they  decided  that the population would  have  to  be
controlled,  which  could be done most easily by killing  off  as
many  "undesirables"  as  possible. Thus AIDS  and  other  deadly
diseases  were  introduced into the population. Another  idea  to
raise needed funds was quickly acted on: sell drugs on a  massive
scale.  An  ambitious  young member of  the  Council  on  Foreign
Relations,  a Texas oil-company president named George Bush,  was
put in charge of the project, with the aid of the CIA. "The  plan
worked better than anyone had thought " CooPer said. "The CIA now
controls  all  the worlds [sic] illegal  drug  markets"  (Cooper,
1989).

 Unknown to just about everybody, a secret  American/Soviet/alien
space  base  existed on the dark side of the moon. By  the  early
1960s  human colonies were thriving on the surface of  Mars.  All
the  while the naive people of the earth were led to believe  the
Soviets  and the Americans were something other than the  closest
allies. But Cooper's story got even more bizarre and byzantine.

 He  claimed that in 1963, when President Kennedy found out  some
of  what was going on, he gave an ultimatum to MJ-12: get out  of
the  drug business. He also declared that in 1964 he  would  tell
the  American people about the alien visitation. Agents of  MJ-12
ordered  his assassination. Kennedy was murdered in full view  of
many  hundreds of onlookers, none of whom apparently noticed,  by
the  Secret  Service  agent driving the President's  car  in  the
motorcade.

 In   1969,  reported  Cooper,  a  confrontation  between   human
scientists  and  aliens at the Dulce laboratory resulted  in  the
former's being taken hostage by the latter. Soldiers who tried to
free the scientists were killed, unable to overcome the  superior
alien  weapons.  The  incident  led  to  a  two-year  rupture  in
relations. The alliance was resumed in 1971 and continues to this
day,  even as a vast invisible financial empire run by  the  CIA,
the NSA and the Council on Foreign Relations runs drugs, launders
money and encourages massive street crime so that Americans  will
be  susceptible to gun-control legislation. The CIA has  gone  so
far  as to employ drugs and hypnosis to  cause  mentally-unstable
individuals  to  commit mass murder of schoolchildren  and  other
innocents, the point being to encourage anti-gun hysteria. All of
this  is  part of the plot, aided and abetted by the  mass  media
(also  under  the  secret  government's  control),  to  so  scare
Americans  that they will soon accept the declaration of  martial
law  when  that  happens, people will be rounded up  and  put  in
concentration  camps  already in place. From there they  will  be
flown  to the moon and Mars to work as slave labor in  the  space
colonies.


 The conspirators already run the world. As Cooper put it,  "Even
a cursory investigation by the most inexperienced researcher will
show that the members of the Council on Foreign Relations and the
Trilateral  commission control the major foundations, all of  the
major media and publishing interests, the largest banks, all  the
major  corporations, the - upper echelons of the government,  and
many other vital interests."

Reaction  to  Lear  and  Cooper:  Whereas  Lear  had  felt   some
obligation  to  name  a  source or two, or  at  least  to  mutter
something  about  "unnamed sources," Cooper told  his  lurid  and
outlandish tale as if it were so self-evidently true that sources
or  supporting  data  were irrelevant. And  to  the  enthusiastic
audiences   flocking  to  Cooper's  lectures,  no  evidence   was
necessary.  By  the  fall  of the year  Cooper  was  telling  his
stories--whose  sources  were, in fact,  flying-saucer  folklore,
AFOSI  disinformation  unleashed during  the  Bennewitz  episode,
conspiracy  literature, and outright fiction--to large crowds  of
Californians  willing to pay $l0 or $15 apiece for the thrill  of
being scared silly.

 Lear  and Cooper soon were joined by two other tellers of  tales
of  UFO horrors and Trilateral conspiracies, William English  and
John Grace (who goes under the pseudonym "Val Valarian" and heads
the Nevada Aerial Research Group in Las Vegas).

 Few  if any mainstream ufologists took these  stories  seriously
and at first treated them as something of a bad joke. But when it
became  clear  that  Lear, Cooper  and  company  were  commanding
significant  media  attention and finding a following  among  the
larger  public interested in ufology's fringes, where  a  claim's
inherent  improbability  had never been seen as  an  obstacle  to
believe  in it, the leaders of the UFO community grew  ever  more
alarmed.

 One leader who was not immediately alarmed was Walter H. Andrus,
Jr.,  director of the Mutual UFO Network (MUFON), one of the  two
largest  UFO organizations in the United States (the other  being
the  J.  Allen Hynek Center for UFO Studies  [CUFOS]).  In  1987,
before Lear had proposed what some wags would call the Dark  Side
Hypothesis,  he had offered to host the 1989 MUFON conference  in
Las  Vegas.  Andrus  agreed. But as Lear's  true  beliefs  became
known,  leading  figures  within MUFON  expressed  concern  about
Lear's  role  in the conference. When Andrus  failed  to  respond
quickly, MUFON officials were infuriated.

 Facing  a  possible  palace revolt, Andrus  informed  Lear  that
Cooper, whom Lear had invited to speak at the conference, was not
an  acceptable choice. But to the critics on the MUFON board  and
elsewhere  in  the organization, this was hardly enough.  One  of
them,  longtime  ufologist  Richard Hall,  said  this  was  "like
putting  a  Band-Aid on a hemorrhage" (Hall, 1989). In  a  heated
telephone exchange Andrus called Hall's objections to Lear  "just
one  man's opinion" and claimed support, which turned out not  to
exist,  from other MUFON notables. In a  widely-distributed  open
letter to Andrus, Hall wrote, "Having Lear run the symposium  and
be  a  major speaker at it is comparable to NICAP in  the  1960's
having  George  Adamski  run a NICAP conference!  "  (NICAP,  the
National  Investigations Committee on Aerial Phenomena, of  which
Hall  was executive secretary in the late 1950s and much  of  the
1960s,   was  a  conservative  UFO-research  organization   which
attacked  as  fraudulent the claims of Adamski, who  wrote  books
about his meetings with Venusians and distributed photographs  of
what  he said were their spaceships.) Hall went on, "You seem  to
be going for the colorful and the spectacular rather than for the
critical-minded approach of science; you even expressed the view-
in  effect-that having a panel to question Lear critically  would
be good show biz and the 'highlight' of the symposium. Maybe  so,
but it obviously would dominate the entire program, grab off  all
major  news  media attention, and put UFO research in  the  worst
possible  light." Hall declared, "I am hereby resigning from  the
MUFON Board and I request that my name be removed from all  MUFON
publications or papers that indicate me to be a Board Member."

 Fearing more resignations, Andrus moved to make Lear barely more
than a guest at his own conference. He was not to lecture  there,
as  previously planned, and hosting duties would be handled,  for
the most part, by others. Lear ended up arranging an "alternative
conference" at which he, Cooper, English and Don Ecker  presented
the latest elaborations on the Dark Side Hypothesis.
 Meanwhile  another  storm  was brewing. On  March  1,  1989,  an
Albuquerque   ufologist,  Robert  Hastings,  issued   a   13-page
statement, with 37 pages of appended documents, and mailed it  to
many  of  ufology's most prominent individuals.  Hastings  opened
with these remarks:

 "First,  it  has  been established that  'Falcon,'  one  of  the
principle  [sic]  sources of the MJ-12 material,  is  Richard  C.
Doty,  formerly  attached  to District 17  Air  Force  Office  of
Special  Investigations  (AFOSI)  at  Kirtland  Air  Force  Base,
Albuquerque,  New  Mexico. Sgt. Doty retired from  the  U.S.  Air
Force on October 1, 1988.


 "How do I know that Doty is 'Falcon?' During a recent  telephone
conversation,  Linda  Moulton Howe told me that  when  Sgt.  Doty
invited  her to his office at Kirtland AFB in early  April  1983,
and  showed her a purportedly authentic U.S. government  document
on  UFOs, he identified himself as code-name 'Falcon' and  stated
that it was Bill Moore who had given him that name.

 "Also,  in  early  December  1988,  a  ranking  member  of   the
production   team  responsible  for  the  'UFO  Cover   Up?-Live'
television documentary confirmed that Doty is 'Falcon.' This same
individual  also identified the second MJ-12 source who  appeared
on  the  program,  'Condor'  as Robert  Collins  who  was,  until
recently,  a  Captain in the U.S. Air Force. Like  Doty,  he  was
stationed  at  KAFB  when he left the service  late  last  year."
(Collins,  a scientist, was assigned to the plasma physics  group
at  Sandia National Laboratories on the Kirtland Air Force  Base.
Following his retirement he moved to Indiana and remains actively
interested in UFOs.)

 Hastings   reviewed  evidence  of  Doty's  involvement  in   the
concoction   of  various  questionable  documents  and   stories,
including  the  Ellsworth tale and the Weitzel  affair.  He  also
noted important discrepancies between the paper Howe saw and  the
MJ-12  briefing document. For example, while the first  mentioned
the alleged Aztec crash, the second said nothing about it at all.
Hastings wondered, "[I]f the briefing paper that Sgt. Doty showed
to Linda Howe was genuine, what does that say about the  accuracy
(and  authenticity) of the Eisenhower document? If, on the  other
hand, the former was bogus and was meant to mislead Howe for some
reason,  what  does  that  say  about  Richard  'Falcon'   Doty's
reliability  as  a  source  for  MJ-12  material  as  a   whole?"
(Hastings,  1989). Hastings also had much critical to  say  about
Moore, especially about an incident in which Moore had flashed  a
badge in front of ufologist/cover-up investigator Lee Graham  and
indicated  he  was working with the government on  a  project  to
release  UFO  information. (Moore would characterize  this  as  a
misguided practical joke.)

 Both  Moore  and Doty denied that the latter  was  Falcon.  They
claimed  Doty had been given that pseudonym long after  the  1983
meeting with Howe. Howe, however, stuck by her account. Moore and
Doty said the real Falcon, an older man than Doty had been in the
studio audience as the video of his interview was being broadcast
on  UFO  Cover-up.  .  . Live. Doty himself  was  in  New  Mexico
training with the state police.

Moore's  Confession:  By  mid-1989  the  two  most  controversial
figures in ufology were Moore and Lear. Moore's MUFON lecture  on
July 1 did nothing to quiet his legion of critics. On his arrival
in  Las Vegas, Moore checked into a different hotel from the  one
at which the conference was being held. He already had refused to
submit his paper for publication in the symposium proceedings, so
no  one  knew what he would say. He had also stipulated  that  he
would accept no questions from the floor.

 Moore's speech stunned and angered much of the audience. At  one
point   the  shouts  and  jeers  of  Lear's   partisans   brought
proceedings  to a halt until order was restored.  Moore  finished
and exited immediately. He left Las Vegas not long afterwards.

 In his lecture Moore spoke candidly, for the first time, of  his
part in the counterintelligence operation against Bennewitz.  "My
role  in the affair," he said, "was largely that of a  freelancer
providing information on Paul's current thinking and activities."
Doty,  "faithfully carrying out orders which he personally  found
distasteful," was one of those involved in the effort to  confuse
and  discredit Bennewitz. Because of his success at this  effort,
Moore suggested, Doty was chosen by the real "Falcon" as "liaison
person,  although I really don't know. Frankly, I  don't  believe
that  Doty does either. In my opinion he was simply a pawn  in  a
much larger game, just as I was."

 From  disinformation  passed on by AFOSI sources,  and  his  own
observations  and  guesses,  according to  Moore,  "by  mid-1982"
Bennewitz had put together a story that "contained virtually  all
of  the  elements  found  in the current  crop  of  rumors  being
circulated around the UFO community." Moore was referring to  the
outlandish  tales Lear and Cooper were telling. Moore  said  that
"when  I first ran into the disinformation operation . . .  being
run on Bennewitz . . . [i)t seemed to me . . . I was in a  rather
unique position. There I was with my foot . . . in the door of  a
secret  counterintelligence  game that gave every  appearance  of
being  somehow directly connected to a high-level government  UFO
project, and, judging by the positions of the people I knew to be
directly  involved with it, definitely had something to  do  with
national  security!  There was no way I was going  to  allow  the
opportunity  to  pass me by without learning at  least  something
about  what was going on. . . . I would play  the  disinformation
game,  get  my  hands  dirty just  often  enough  to  lead  those
directing  the  process into believing that I was  doing  exactly
what  they wanted me to do, and all the while continue to  burrow
my  way into the matrix so as to learn as much as possible  about
who  was directing it and why." Some of the same people who  were
passing alleged UFO secrets on to Moore were also involved in the
operation against Bennewitz. Moore knew that some of the material
he  was  getting--essentially  a mild version  of  the  Bennewitz
scenario, without the horror, paranoia and conspiracy--was false,
but  he (along with Jaime Shandera and Stanton Friedman, to  whom
he  confided the cover-up story in June 1982; Friedman,  however,
would  not learn of Moore's role in the Bennewitz  episode  until
seven years later) felt that some of it was probably true,  since
an  invariable  characteristic  of  disinformation  is  that   it
contains some facts. Moore also said that Linda Howe had been the
victim of one of Doty's disinformation operations.

 Before  he stopped cooperating with such schemes in 1984,  Moore
said,  he had given "routine information" to AFOSI about  certain
other  individuals in the UFO community. Subsequently he  claimed
that  during this period this emphasis) "three other  members  of
the  UFO  community . . . were actively doing the same  thing.  I
have  since  learned of a fourth. . . . All  four  are  prominent
individuals   whose   identities,  if  disclosed,   would   cause
considerable  controversy in the UFO community and bring  serious
embarrassment  to two of its major organizations. To the best  of
my  knowledge,  at least two of these people are  still  actively
involved" (Moore, 1989b).

 Although  he would not reveal the identities of  the  government
informants  within  ufology,  Moore gave  the  names  of  several
persons "who were the subject of intelligence community  interest
between 1980 and 1984." They were:

 (1)  Len  Stringfield,  a ufologist known for  his  interest  in
crashed-disc   stories;  in  1980  he  had  been  set  up  by   a
counterintelligence operative who gave him phony pictures of what
purported to be humanoids in cold storage.

 (2) The late Pete Mazzola, whose knowledge of film footage  from
a  never-publicized  Florida UFO case was of  great  interest  to
counterintelligence types. Moore was directed to urge Mazzola  to
send the footage to ufologist Kal Korff (who knew nothing of  the
scheme) for analysis; then Moore would make a copy and pass it on
to  Doty. But Mazzola never got the film, despite  promises,  and
the  incident came to nothing. "I was left with the  impression,"
Moore  wrote,  "that  the  file  had  been  intercepted  and  the
witnesses somehow persuaded to cease communication with Mazzola."

 (3)  Peter  Gersten,  legal counsel  for  Citizens  Against  UFO
Secrecy  (CAUS),  who had spearheaded  a  (largely  unsuccessful)
legal suit against the NSA seeking UFO information.

 (4) Larry Fawcett, an official of CAUS and coauthor of a book on
the cover-up, Clear Intent (1984).

 (5)  James  and  Coral Lorenzen, the  directors  of  the  Aerial
Phenomena Research Organization (APRO) periodically "subjects  of
on-again,  off  again interest . . .  mostly  passive  monitoring
rather  than active meddling," according to Moore.  Between  1980
and  1982 A